Comparing Amtrak Schedules, Past vs. Present

Philly Amtrak Fan · Jul 8, 2017

Much has been said (well by me) about the Three Rivers getting canceled and how much it sucked/sucks for PHL and the rest of PA east of PGH and NJ. But not as obvious if the fact that NYP lost one of its two daily trains to CHI. Is it surprising at all the LSL sells out so fast and fares are so high?

In addition, consider the "past vs. present" here:

April 2004:

TR: http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=20040426&item=0071

LSL/CL (same page): http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=20040426&item=0069

NYP to CHI: 41 - 12:15pm to 7:45am, 49 - 2:50pm-8:55am, WAS to CHI: 29 - 5:20pm-10:19am

CHI to NYP: 48 - 7:20pm to 3:25pm, 40 - 10:30pm-8:10pm, CHI to WAS: 30 - 5:35pm-12:24pm

Westbound there really wasn't as much difference as there is now but eastbound you could leave CHI earlier and get back to NYP before the evening rush hour which you can't do today (you also get back to most upstate NY destinations and BOS 2-3 hrs earlier).

It's interesting to me that the CL and LSL basically swapped arrival times into CHI and that the eastbound CL left CHI at 5:35pm which would be worse for CHI-WAS passengers coming from the west (I'm guessing you'd have to either take the LSL and transfer in NYP to WAS or the TR and transfer in PHL to WAS) but better for passengers connecting in WAS for the SS/SM. That meant the CL times in PGH were even worse than they are now but the TR was still running to CHI so only those going to WAS had to deal with them.

PGH to CHI: 41 - 10:30pm-7:45am, 29 - 1:22am-10:19am

CHI to PGH: 30 - 5:35pm-4:21am, 40 - 10:30pm-9:30am

On the other hand, the eastbound CL got back to TOL/CLE an hour earlier (10:39pm into TOL, 12:59am into CLE). Then again, the late departure of the LSL today allows the train to get to CLE closer to daylight than back then. What's better for arriving into CLE, 12:59am or the current LSL time (5:35am)?

So for NYP's purpose, the TR allowed you to arrive into CHI two hours earlier than today, leave CHI two hours earlier than today, and gave you one extra hour leeway coming back from the west in case you are delayed (you'd take the TR instead of the LSL). I'm not sure that is much of a loss westbound but I think getting back to NYP earlier (and having the backup TR if you missed the LSL) was a benefit for New York passengers coming from Chicago. As for upstate NY/BOS, you arrived back home from CHI earlier than you did now but you were more likely to miss your connection from the west so I don't know whether that's good or bad.

Also back in 2004 they had a 3-C Thruway connecting in CLE to both the LSL and CL. http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=20040426&item=0070 which doesn't exist today (although going from Columbus-CLE-CHI or Columbus-CLE-WAS seems backwards, Columbus-CLE-NYP or Columbus-CLE-BOS would be useful).

In 2004-05, NYP not only lost a daily to CHI but also a daily to Florida. I'll discuss Florida in a separate post.

Philly Amtrak Fan · Jul 8, 2017

I believe the strongest end point to end point LD markets are between the NEC and CHI and the NEC and Florida. In addition to the NEC losing a daily to CHI back in 2004 they also lost a daily to Florida when the Palmetto was truncated in SAV. Losing the TR took away some schedule flexibility in travel between NYP and CHI but a lot more schedule flexibility between NYP and Florida.

From April 2004:

http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=20040426&item=0073

http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=20040426&item=0074

Southbound:

89: NYP 7:15am, PHL 9:40am, WAS 12:20pm, JAX 1:50am, TPA 6:50am, MIA 12:20pm

91: NYP 11:30am, PHL 1:35pm, WAS 4:35pm, JAX 8:15am, ORL 11:32am, MIA 5:20pm

97: NYP 7:10pm, PHL 8:41pm, WAS 10:59pm, JAX 12:30pm, ORL 3:29pm, MIA 9:35pm

Northbound:

98: MIA 7:00am, ORL 12:22pm, JAX 3:46pm, WAS 5:45am, PHL 8:25am, NYP 10:12am

92: MIA 10:35am, ORL 3:56pm, JAX 7:13pm, WAS 11:04am, PHL 1:20pm. NYP 3:28pm

90: MIA 3:00pm, TPA 8:45pm, JAX 12:38am, WAS 2:45pm, PHL 5:10pm, NYP 7:31pm

To answer one of dogbert617's questions, the Palmetto served Waldo-Ocala-Wildwood in 2004 before they truncated it to SAV (http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=20040426&item=0076)

Back then there was no TPA-ORL service (the Palmetto was the TPA-MIA train) and the Palmetto didn't serve ORL so ORL still has the same two trains it does now (MIA/South Florida and JAX went from three to two).

I believe people at AU have said they would have liked a train from the NEC to south Florida to catch cruises. Back in 2004, that was the Palmetto, arriving in MIA slightly after noon and leaving MIA at 3pm as opposed to the later arrivals to and earlier departures from MIA in 2017. Also, you could have left NYP after the evening rush today which you can't today. The arrivals into MIA had a great variety where in 2017 the two trains arrive in MIA less than an hour apart. They also said the SM used to require 3 sets back then with the departure from NYP later.

It makes absolutely no sense for me to truncate the Palmetto in SAV. That's like truncating the LSL in ALB. I say you run it to Florida or get rid of it altogether. Back then the SM, SS, and Palmetto combined required 11 sets. Today, they require 10. So you've saved a grand one set and you now have to have turning facilities in Savannah which you didn't need before (and you could have gotten down to 10 sets by having the Palmetto go from TPA to ORL and terminate there (approx. 9am arrival into ORL and 6:30pm departure from ORL) so no extra sets and no new service facilities in Savannah would be required (you could still have rerouted the SS to serve TPA-MIA). You'd lose a trip to South Florida (the ideal cruise schedule train) but you'd add a train to ORL and if you rerouted the SS then two trains would serve TPA instead of one). On the other hand, you could keep the late departure out of the NEC to Florida which would help people from NYP/PHL/WAS. If they had to keep only two NYP-Florida trains, they could have just had the SS use the Palmetto schedule up to JAX and then travel its current route ORL-TPA-MIA so at least it still arrived into/left from south Florida in time for the cruises and you wouldn't have the SS and SM within an hour of each other northbound. I think most of us agree the early arrival into Florida and the later departure from the NEC were beneficial as opposed to two trains within an hour of each other.

So just like NEC-Chicago, losing a train not only takes a train away it also inconveniences the schedules of the trains that do remain. The two service cuts in 2004-2005 don't seem important to people outside of PHL/HAR/Lancaster but they hurt others more than you think.

railiner · Jul 8, 2017

Like I've said earlier....you were just born too late...

Back in the pre-Amtrak era, you had trains between New York and Chicago, and most everywhere else that gave you almost round-the-clock choices, and on several different railroads.

That also meant that they did not have to hold trains for very late connections, but leave right on time...late train passenger's were easily accommodated on later trains, and there was an ample pool of extra coaches and sleeper's that could be added to those trains if necessary to accommodate them...

Bob Dylan · Jul 8, 2017

Now if we could just get rid of the Cardinal Amtrak would be Great Again!

Philly Amtrak Fan · Jul 8, 2017

I believe Amtrak has never had a train connecting ATL and Florida (the Floridian went through Alabama). The last train I am aware of between the cities was the Dixie Flagler. If I had to start from scratch and build a single rail line between the NEC and Florida I would run it via RGH, CLT, and ATL. It would be longer than going along the Atlantic Coast but you'd have a much larger potential audience. Was there ever a train from the NEC to Florida via ATL (maybe Seaboard Coast Line)? How about a train between CLT and Florida?

Seaboard92 · Jul 8, 2017

Philly Amtrak Fan said:
I believe Amtrak has never had a train connecting ATL and Florida (the Floridian went through Alabama). The last train I am aware of between the cities was the Dixie Flagler. If I had to start from scratch and build a single rail line between the NEC and Florida I would run it via RGH, CLT, and ATL. It would be longer than going along the Atlantic Coast but you'd have a much larger potential audience. Was there ever a train from the NEC to Florida via ATL (maybe Seaboard Coast Line)? How about a train between CLT and Florida?

Nothing by SAL/ACL ran from the NEC to FL via Atlanta. The SAL had a train NEC-ATL-Birmingham. If you consult your rail atlas you'll see that the SAL/ACL really didn't have any real routings possible for it.

Now the Southern (SOU) Railway might have. But I'm pretty sure their Florida service which was very limited went on other routes. I believe their only contribution NEC to FL ran via Columbia and what became the SAL.