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Amtrak coach is usually pretty competitive with airline fares. You can't compare sleeper fares, it's simply in another class of travel IMO. And comparing the time factor - well duh - it's a train versus a plane, come on. Only in a few cases is it going to be competitive time wise, like in certain circumstances the Northeast Corridor when you factor in time getting to the airports, etc.
There is only one such way that Amtrak Sleeper can beat flying in both time AND price for me.

The crappy scheduling of the Capital out of Pittsburgh actually works in my advantage for getting to Chicago. I get into downtown Chicago first thing in the morning, I can get a full day in of work and depart that evening. It removes two hotel stays from my travel budget and a couple of meals as well. On the return trip, it drops me off in front of my office. We have shower and changing facilities in the office so I just bring one extra set of work clothes and I'm ready to work as soon as I get back to Pittsburgh.

However, I realize that my situation is unique.
 
Amtrak coach is usually pretty competitive with airline fares. You can't compare sleeper fares, it's simply in another class of travel IMO. And comparing the time factor - well duh - it's a train versus a plane, come on. Only in a few cases is it going to be competitive time wise, like in certain circumstances the Northeast Corridor when you factor in time getting to the airports, etc.
There is only one such way that Amtrak Sleeper can beat flying in both time AND price for me.

The crappy scheduling of the Capital out of Pittsburgh actually works in my advantage for getting to Chicago. I get into downtown Chicago first thing in the morning, I can get a full day in of work and depart that evening. It removes two hotel stays from my travel budget and a couple of meals as well. On the return trip, it drops me off in front of my office. We have shower and changing facilities in the office so I just bring one extra set of work clothes and I'm ready to work as soon as I get back to Pittsburgh.

However, I realize that my situation is unique.
I've done something similar when I've taken business trips from DC to Ann Arbor: Leave DC at 4:15 PM, overnight to Toledo, then the Thruway bus, which gets me into Ann Arbor at *:30 AM or so. Someone from the office picks me up, I have my full day there, and a dinner with colleagues. The Thruway bus leaves Ann Arbor at about 8:30 PM, and I board the eastbound Capitol in Toledo 11-ish. After a nice night's sleep, I get some work done in the morning (with my laptop and mobile internet access), arriving back in DC at 1 PM, time enough to go to the office and report in.

For most of these meetings, if I were to fly, I'd be at least one night in a hotel, plus a 2-day car rental and gas. (Detroit Metro Airport has no decent ground connections to Ann Arbor, and our office location requires a car.) The coach fare is ridiculously low compared to flying, and the sleeper charges aren't that much higher.
 
Is that why passenger enplanements, revenue passenger miles, and available seat miles are all up over 2009 levels? Don't be so quick to conclude that the capacity issues on Amtrak and the rise of companies like Megabus are solely driven by trends in the airline industry, an industry that still carries the largest bulk of paying travelers. Let's not ignore the price of gas, which is the main culprit behind these recent shifts in consumer preferences. Amtrak ridership has been growing steadily for quite some time; the recent gas price spikes only amplifies an existing issue.
"Up over 2009 levels"? That is a Toyota level of PR spin that you don't see on this board. Toyota issued a bunch of press releases in January 2011 congratulating themselves on a 1.1% increase over 2009 sales. 2009 is when their sales plummeted due to the sudden acceleration PR disaster.
I don't understand what Toyota has to do with any of this. 2010 passenger enplanements, revenue passenger miles, and available seat miles are all higher than their respective 2009 levels on a monthly basis, except for ASMs in the first couple of months of 2010, and enplanements in February 2010. The data for months in 2011 is not yet available.

What I found funny is that when those extra charges rolled out, the ticket prices did not appear to reduce by a corresponding amount... or any amount for that matter. How is it that US Airways can get me from Pittsburgh PA to Frankfurt Germany in 14 hours for about $750 ... and that includes two meals and handling my luggage, yet it costs $350 for a 2.5 hour jaunt to Ft. Lauderdale and they won't even touch my bags or offer me more than a warm coke? Either U.S. Air is overcharging for the PIT - FLL flight and then attempting to charge me extra for luggage/legroom/early boarding, or they are losing vast amounts of money on the PIT-PHL-FRA flight that I do twice a year.

Even more egredious is the $900... $900... Air Canada tries to charge me for a ticket to get me from Pittsburgh to Toronto on a direct flight.... it's only a 5.5 hour drive yet flying takes longer than that due to security, customs, getting to YYZ, etc. Amtrak might take 9 hours to get you to Toronto from Pittsburgh via Cleveland, but they'd only charge you $120 for it round trip.

Furthermore, there is substantial reason to believe that the checked bag fee arose only because the TSA began banning liquids over 3 ounces in carry-on bags. The fee was introduced as yet another way for the airlines to abuse their passengers..... they do it because they can... and because people are too dumb to understand that buying liquid personal care items at their destination is far cheaper than paying for the checked bag fee.
The PIT-PHL-FRA vs PIT to FLL comparison is a simple example of supply and demand, nothing more. US Airways is not overcharging if it's filling its planes and/or turning a profit. Maybe for you, but apparently not for others. Air Canada charges you that much because A) they can, and B) those flights are offered as a connecting service. Don't like it? Either don't fly it, or connect somewhere. The same applies to if you were to try to book CAE-ATL on Delta. To the airline, the seat on a feeder flight is worth the full value of someone's flight itinerary. That is, when you book a seat on a regional/feeder flight by itself, the airline often times must upcharge you to recover what would otherwise be potential lost revenue since that seat isn't sold to someone who is going onto another flight, and who likely paid a higher fare. You may find it best to book two one-way itineraries on your Toronto trips and book through to another destination on the way up to Canada. By booking through to Vancouver on Air Canada and just not boarding the connecting flight in Toronto, the one way fare is $51 less than your flight to Toronto by itself. A similar practice yields a savings of $60 by booking through to Montreal.

To ignore the fact that fuel costs were almost 100% higher than the previous year at the time of the first bag fee in mid-2008 and suggest that the fees placed on checked bags were really a result of the unrelated TSA ban on liquids is pretty out there. The liquid ban began in August of 2006; the first checked bag fee didn't come until almost 2 years later from American. If your theory was true, don't you think the airlines would have maybe implemented that policy quicker? The baggage fee was a direct result of sky-high fuel prices at the time. United's COO said at the time, “With record-breaking fuel prices, we must pursue new revenue opportunities, while continuing to offer competitive fares, by tailoring our products and services around what our customers value most and are willing to pay for.” Why do you think that every airline has some kind of vendetta against their paying passengers on which they solely survive? The airlines had to pass that additional fuel cost onto the passenger. They didn't have a choice.

Likely story. Airlines don't price their fares based on an abuse factor. :lol: Aside from bag fees and the recent changes in airport security, tell me, how has airline service deteriorated to the point where they now "abuse" their customers?
bag fees, extra leg room fees (hear of "coach plus" yet? it gets you a vast 3 more inches of room), Other "premium seats", Zone 1 and 2 fees (which is just a way to get people who won't pay the checked bag fee to pay more since they'll get first dibs at overhead bins), termination off beverage service on many shorter flights, extra charge for pillows/blankets/etc.)
Your list includes items that are all non-essential to the actual service being purchased and subsequently provided: high-speed, consistent, safe air travel. Pillows, blankets, and drinks all have costs to the airline, and if you want one, you've got to pay for it. Besides, who needs a drink on a 25 minute flight anyway? The other fees are all ways for customers to personalize their flying experience to their liking. When I flew Southwest last month, I paid the $10 early bird check in fee because I value a window seat in front of the engine. The same goes for coach plus - there is a very real demand for that onboard product. If you want the extra inches of legroom, you've got to fork out for it. If you want to sit in standard pitch coach, you don't. Why is that "abuse?" The business model has changed. Deal with it.

I like the one where there is a "checked bag fee" but it's more expensive to do it at the airport... as if there was an extra cost to the airline for swiping your card at the kiosk instead of online.
Online check-in allows for a smoothing of the check-in process and decreased labor at the airport with an associated cost savings, plain and simple. If half the passengers or more on a plane are checking their bags in online, the airline can reduce their airport staff from 3 to 2, or 2 to 1.

Delta just added what I consider the first reasonable baggage fee I have seen, $5 gets you tracking of your bags. You are emailed the location of your bags as they pass through the system. Just like package tracking.
But why should you have to pay for that?
That's pretty neat. I hadn't heard that news yet. Why should you pay for it? Because on top of the technology costs undoubtedly involved in implementing this service, it allows the passengers who value this service to pay for it. Others, like myself, won't value such a service, meaning that I won't pay for it.

I can't imagine the responses on this board if/when Amtrak implements a bag fee. :cool:
 
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Likely story. Airlines don't price their fares based on an abuse factor. :lol: Aside from bag fees and the recent changes in airport security, tell me, how has airline service deteriorated to the point where they now "abuse" their customers?
Oldsmoboi said:
bag fees, extra leg room fees (hear of "coach plus" yet? it gets you a vast 3 more inches of room), Other "premium seats", Zone 1 and 2 fees (which is just a way to get people who won't pay the checked bag fee to pay more since they'll get first dibs at overhead bins), termination off beverage service on many shorter flights, extra charge for pillows/blankets/etc.)
Your list includes items that are all non-essential to the actual service being purchased and subsequently provided: high-speed, consistent, safe air travel. Pillows, blankets, and drinks all have costs to the airline, and if you want one, you've got to pay for it. Besides, who needs a drink on a 25 minute flight anyway? The other fees are all ways for customers to personalize their flying experience to their liking.
it's not just the up-charge, it's the reduction in seat room in non-premium seats. The checked bag fees have caused more people to try and get everything into a carry on, slowing security times and boarding times. By charging the checked bag fee, it's made things more difficult for those who are traveling with legitimate "carry-on" bags instead of a week's worth of clothing vacuum packed into the biggest roll-a-board allowed. All of these "premium perks" don't just cost more for the people buying them, it also costs the non-buyers as well.

The airlines would herd you onto the plane like cattle and charge you a fee for the privilege of going first if they thought they could get away with it.

When I flew Southwest last month, I paid the $10 early bird check in fee because I value a window seat in front of the engine. The same goes for coach plus - there is a very real demand for that onboard product. If you want the extra inches of legroom, you've got to fork out for it. If you want to sit in standard pitch coach, you don't. Why is that "abuse?" The business model has changed. Deal with it.
oh look.....they did.

Online check-in allows for a smoothing of the check-in process and decreased labor at the airport with an associated cost savings, plain and simple. If half the passengers or more on a plane are checking their bags in online, the airline can reduce their airport staff from 3 to 2, or 2 to 1.
No, I've been through the process both ways. There is precisely the same amount of interaction with a desk attendant regardless of where you pay.
 
it's not just the up-charge, it's the reduction in seat room in non-premium seats. The checked bag fees have caused more people to try and get everything into a carry on, slowing security times and boarding times. By charging the checked bag fee, it's made things more difficult for those who are traveling with legitimate "carry-on" bags instead of a week's worth of clothing vacuum packed into the biggest roll-a-board allowed. All of these "premium perks" don't just cost more for the people buying them, it also costs the non-buyers as well.
The addition of premium economy or extra space coach seats do not affect the pitch in the rest of the coach section of the aircraft. These seats are put in by removing existing rows of coach, not cramming them closer together. I agree that people are slamming more in their carry-ons than before and that sometimes creates headaches at checkpoints. Regardless, if one just separates the liquids from the rest of the stuff in their carry-on, he or she can slide the whole thing through the x-ray with no problem. I don't get why people feel obligated to unpack their entire bag in the security line. :giggle:

When I flew Southwest last month, I paid the $10 early bird check in fee because I value a window seat in front of the engine. The same goes for coach plus - there is a very real demand for that onboard product. If you want the extra inches of legroom, you've got to fork out for it. If you want to sit in standard pitch coach, you don't. Why is that "abuse?" The business model has changed. Deal with it.
oh look.....they did.
They did....what? Abuse me by making me pay for something that I'm willing to pay for?

Online check-in allows for a smoothing of the check-in process and decreased labor at the airport with an associated cost savings, plain and simple. If half the passengers or more on a plane are checking their bags in online, the airline can reduce their airport staff from 3 to 2, or 2 to 1.
No, I've been through the process both ways. There is precisely the same amount of interaction with a desk attendant regardless of where you pay.
The process will be the same, but the number of employees there will be smaller than in the past, primarily at larger airports.
 
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Amtrak coach is usually pretty competitive with airline fares. You can't compare sleeper fares, it's simply in another class of travel IMO.
Private varnish is a whole other class of travel. Conventional fiberglass sleeping compartments from the 1970's slowly meandering across the country at a speeds slower than flights, cars, and buses aren't all that special to anyone who isn't a rail fan. When John Q. Public sees that limited numbers of slow speed sleepers cost double, triple or even quadruple the cost of dozens of more conveniently timed flights that travel many times faster it's hard to see obvious and inherent value equal to the enormous cost. My guess is that extenuating circumstances (bag fees, gas prices, TSA privacy & health concerns, huge increases in retirees, drug smuggling, etc.) have more to do with Amtrak's current record loads than the fundamental value people see in slow rail travel.
 
My partner's large Italian family is rather close and they often travel together on vacation. Getting 6 kids, 4 parents, and two grandparents to Disney for vacation is a lot more cost effective on Amtrak.
 
I don't believe that paying the bag fees online really reduces staff, because they still need staff at the bag drop to print out the tag for your luggage and collect the bag. My personal opinion is that the airline provides a discount for those that pay the bag fee online is because that way it is nonrefundable and they can collect it regardless of if you actually check a bag or not. Sometimes I pay the fee and then don't end up checking a bag - because it was just easier to pay it in the beginning.
 
Amtrak coach is usually pretty competitive with airline fares. You can't compare sleeper fares, it's simply in another class of travel IMO.
Private varnish is a whole other class of travel. Conventional fiberglass sleeping compartments from the 1970's slowly meandering across the country at a speeds slower than flights, cars, and buses aren't all that special to anyone who isn't a rail fan. When John Q. Public sees that limited numbers of slow speed sleepers cost double, triple or even quadruple the cost of dozens of more conveniently timed flights that travel many times faster it's hard to see obvious and inherent value equal to the enormous cost. My guess is that extenuating circumstances (bag fees, gas prices, TSA privacy & health concerns, huge increases in retirees, drug smuggling, etc.) have more to do with Amtrak's current record loads than the fundamental value people see in slow rail travel.
dax. is there anything about amtrak that you like? All your posts are so negative about the company.

I've ridden in private cars. built by Pullman. they have been restored to museum standards. Yes Private Varnish is a different class of travel, but Private Cars were never available to the general public ever. I've seen Pullman Cars in museums. Are they more charming than a viewliner? YES! Are they more comfortable than a viewliner? I've never slept in one, I've been told yes.

But are they more charming than the refurbished superliners that have come out in recent years? Slightly, but not by much. Amtrak is making huge improvements and while many people despise the "CCC" car design, Amtrak actually went back to the dining car designs of trains such as the 20th Century Limited for the table designs and purely from a design point of view the cars really look pleasing to they eye.

As to the speed... Amtrak Speeds are picking up nation wide. You can't expect improvements overnight, these things take time and money. The new corridor work from St. Louis to Chicago is going to do wonders for that route, as will the Charlotte-Raleigh work that just got approved. Do I want Amtrak to improve? Yes. But in the past 22 years I have been riding amtrak, and notably in the past 10, I have seen Amtrak evolve SO much that even Darwin would say "how did that happen?"
 
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I don't believe that paying the bag fees online really reduces staff, because they still need staff at the bag drop to print out the tag for your luggage and collect the bag. My personal opinion is that the airline provides a discount for those that pay the bag fee online is because that way it is nonrefundable and they can collect it regardless of if you actually check a bag or not. Sometimes I pay the fee and then don't end up checking a bag - because it was just easier to pay it in the beginning.
Paying online for bag fees does reduce the workload for airport employees, and helps speed the check-in process and decrease the length of time that a passenger is in the terminal. While in some cases it may not cause a drawdown in the number of frontline employees, it is in the very least an exercise in efficiency improvement.

Amtrak is making huge improvements and while many people despise the "CCC" car design, Amtrak actually went back to the dining car designs of trains such as the 20th Century Limited for the table designs and purely from a design point of view the cars really look pleasing to they eye.

As to the speed... Amtrak speeds are picking up nation wide. You can't expect improvements overnight, these things take time and money. The new corridor work from St. Louis to Chicago is going to do wonders for that route, as will the Charlotte-Raleigh work that just got approved. Do I want Amtrak to improve? Yes. But in the past 22 years I have been riding Amtrak, and notably in the past 10, I have seen Amtrak evolve SO much that even Darwin would say "how did that happen?"
Here's to a continuation of the above...
 
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My partner's large Italian family is rather close and they often travel together on vacation. Getting 6 kids, 4 parents, and two grandparents to Disney for vacation is a lot more cost effective on Amtrak.
Around here Disney means the Florida parks. Millions of Texans head to Disney World every single year. Millions more Texans head to Vegas, which is a similarly easy to reach and inexpensive location by air but these days America's ever more debilitated passenger rail network can't get you to Vegas at any cost, so I guess we'll just leave that one alone for now.

Let's pick the first week in July (1-7) from San Antonio to Orlando and back and see how the ticket fares work out.

Southwest Airlines: $154.70 + 154.70 = 309.40

Duration: 3 hours + 3 hours

Amtrak Coach: $329.00 + 369.00 = 698.00

Amtrak Sleeper: $993.00 + 1073 = 2066.00

Duration: 77 hours + 81 hours

That's right, three hours in the air becomes three days on Amtrak. Six hours becomes a full week and leaves you with no time left over for any Disney World stuff. We'd also be paying double the cost in a coach seat or several times the cost in a carpeted fiberglass sleeper compartment. On my last set of flights to Florida last summer we were able to book a sub-$200 round trip that was a perfect fit for our schedule. Taking Amtrak would have screwed up our departure and arrival and consumed our entire vacation just getting us there and back at several times the cost. There are ways to get a better per-person price here and there and maybe shave off a few hours with other routings, but there is virtually no way you could consider the train a good value to Disney for Texans, even in coach.
 
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Bob,

I think at least some of the frustration isn't just due to "the fares are too high"...it's also due to "the airline doesn't allow me a ready calculation of my total cost". Moreover, there are a lot of charges that make some sense (I can "get" the checked bag situation)...and some that don't (or some that are unavoidable...in some cases, it's a charge of $5 for one option or $20 for another while no option is free...the base option should be included in your fare). And of course, there's disSpirit Airlines' carry-on bag fee.

As to Ryanair...they're in the habit of doing attention-grabbers that turn into actual fees later. Remember the "spend 50p to spend a penny" bit that has come to fruition? That was initially just a "gimmick" that they "backed off of"...until they didn't.
I agree, but research shows that consumers prefer knowing exactly what they're paying for, even if the fee is mandatory. Similarly, I don't get why one airline (eludes me right now) requires online checkin but charges a $5 fee to do it. If it's not in place already, it's coming IIRC.
I think that's Spirit...they've got the more infamous ones, and that's what I was thinking (I thought there was a far more expensive check-in at the airport option). Perhaps a better way to put it is that when I click on the fare, I'd like to see, instead of "$99 from A to B" and then a list of fees, "$129 from A to B; includes the following mandatory fees" and then the list of fees...or at least the "$129 minimum after fees; here's a calculator for the fees you may end up paying".
I like the one where there is a "checked bag fee" but it's more expensive to do it at the airport... as if there was an extra cost to the airline for swiping your card at the kiosk instead of online.
Delta just added what I consider the first reasonable baggage fee I have seen, $5 gets you tracking of your bags. You are emailed the location of your bags as they pass through the system. Just like package tracking.
But why should you have to pay for that? They are probably just allowing consumers to access the baggage tracking software that they already have, and they probably don't add anything extra to your bag to track it.
I'm not defending it, but there is the expense of implementation and the cost of the emails (does use system resources). Certainly not $5, but I would happily pay for it to know where my bags are.
 
My partner's large Italian family is rather close and they often travel together on vacation. Getting 6 kids, 4 parents, and two grandparents to Disney for vacation is a lot more cost effective on Amtrak.
Around here Disney means the Florida parks. Let's pick the first week in July and see how things come out.

Southwest Airlines: 309.40

Duration: 3 hours.

Amtrak Coach: $329.00

Amtrak Sleeper: $993.00

Duration: 77 hours.

That's right, three hours in the air becomes three days on Amtrak. You'll be even be paying a little more for the privilege of spending all that time in coach and on station benches. On my last set of flights to Florida last summer we were able to find a sub-$200 round trip that was a perfect fit for our schedule. Amtrak's best routing at that time would have cost us 50% more in coach and a minimum of five times as much in the smallest sleeper. Taking Amtrak would also have consumed our entire vacation just getting us there and back. Not a good value to Disney for us, even in coach.
Allegiant can sometimes get you there for even cheaper than that!

daxomni, I think you and I are usually on the same page when it comes to realism of many of the suggestions around here. Sure, taking 77 hours to get to Disney versus a 3 hour flight can be possible and enjoyable for some board members (and more power to them by all means), but for everybody else in the population, it's just unfeasible. People have set schedules, and unless they're retired or on summer vacation with no job or something, flying is the only way to make a vacation happen on a set schedule without having conflicts. The majority of people going to Disney simply don't have the luxury of taking days to get there and back via Amtrak, even if they desire to do so.
 
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Allegiant can sometimes get you there for even cheaper than that!

daxomni, I think you and I are usually on the same page when it comes to realism of many of the suggestions around here. Sure, taking 77 hours to get to Disney versus a 3 hour flight can be possible and enjoyable for some board members (and more power to them by all means), but for everybody else in the population, it's just unfeasible. People have set schedules, and unless they're retired or on summer vacation with no job or something, flying is the only way to make a vacation happen on a set schedule without having conflicts. The majority of people going to Disney simply don't have the luxury of taking days to get there and back via Amtrak, even if they desire to do so.
Allegiant can get me to Disney for cheaper than driving, or greyhound! So yes, Allegiant is quite a bargain.

However, daxomni's comparison is correct, but looking at only one scenario. I agree SAS-ORL makes no sense by train currently. ATL - ORL does not make sense either (which is the route I would have to take). But NYP-ORL, WAS-ORL, Raleigh NC, - ORL might make better sense.

using the "first week of july" (I picked July 7).

Amtrak NYP-ORL = 21 hours 40 min. for Silver Meteor = $160 Coach

Continental Offers Lowest Non Stop fare which = $125 plus $$25 for first bag, $35 for second bag. Travel Time = 2 hours and 35 min.

Amtrak WAS-ORL = 17 hours 20 min. for Silver Metor = $133 Coach

US Airways offers cheapest Fare which = $199 plus $25 for first bag, $35 for second bag. Travel Time = 2 hours and 10 min.

Amtrak RGH-ORL = 13 hours 4 min. for Silver Star = $66 Coach.

Delta Offers cheapest fare which = $239 plus $25 for first bag, $35 for second bag. Travel Time = 2 hours and 3 min.

To say blanket statements like "Amtrak does not have competitive rates" is completely subjective. Amtrak is a complex system that has different pricing models for different routes. If I lived in NYC and didn't care about riding the train I'd prob. fly, since its the same price and gets me to Disney faster. But LOTS of people take the Silver trains from NYP to ORL everyday, and they sure don't look like railfans to me!
 
How does the location of the credit card reader change the workload of the employees at the terminal? I go to a self check in kiosk, I swipe my card to identify myself, I check in, opt for a checked bag, swipe my card again, confirm check in, and my boarding passes spit out, then I wait for a desk rep to take my bag and check my ID. If I pre-paid at home, and did a home check in, I still have to go to the desk, show my ID, and present my bags to the desk rep.

I see no savings in personnel time either way.
 
Amtrak coach is usually pretty competitive with airline fares. You can't compare sleeper fares, it's simply in another class of travel IMO.
Private varnish is a whole other class of travel. Conventional fiberglass sleeping compartments from the 1970's slowly meandering across the country at a speeds slower than flights, cars, and buses aren't all that special to anyone who isn't a rail fan. When John Q. Public sees that limited numbers of slow speed sleepers cost double, triple or even quadruple the cost of dozens of more conveniently timed flights that travel many times faster it's hard to see obvious and inherent value equal to the enormous cost. My guess is that extenuating circumstances (bag fees, gas prices, TSA privacy & health concerns, huge increases in retirees, drug smuggling, etc.) have more to do with Amtrak's current record loads than the fundamental value people see in slow rail travel.
Pretty simple. If you don't think the sleeper service is worth it than don't take the train. The sleepers pretty much sell out so saying "it isn't special to anyone" is simply not true. Plenty of travelers are willing to pay for the sleepers.
 
My partner's large Italian family is rather close and they often travel together on vacation. Getting 6 kids, 4 parents, and two grandparents to Disney for vacation is a lot more cost effective on Amtrak.
Around here Disney means the Florida parks. Let's pick the first week in July and see how things come out.

Southwest Airlines: 309.40

Duration: 3 hours.

Amtrak Coach: $329.00

Amtrak Sleeper: $993.00

Duration: 77 hours.

That's right, three hours in the air becomes three days on Amtrak. You'll be even be paying a little more for the privilege of spending all that time in coach and on station benches. On my last set of flights to Florida last summer we were able to find a sub-$200 round trip that was a perfect fit for our schedule. Amtrak's best routing at that time would have cost us 50% more in coach and a minimum of five times as much in the smallest sleeper. Taking Amtrak would also have consumed our entire vacation just getting us there and back. Not a good value to Disney for us, even in coach.
Allegiant can sometimes get you there for even cheaper than that!

daxomni, I think you and I are usually on the same page when it comes to realism of many of the suggestions around here. Sure, taking 77 hours to get to Disney versus a 3 hour flight can be possible and enjoyable for some board members (and more power to them by all means), but for everybody else in the population, it's just unfeasible. People have set schedules, and unless they're retired or on summer vacation with no job or something, flying is the only way to make a vacation happen on a set schedule without having conflicts. The majority of people going to Disney simply don't have the luxury of taking days to get there and back via Amtrak, even if they desire to do so.
Nonsense. You do realize most people DRIVE to Florida on family vacations?
 
How does the location of the credit card reader change the workload of the employees at the terminal? I go to a self check in kiosk, I swipe my card to identify myself, I check in, opt for a checked bag, swipe my card again, confirm check in, and my boarding passes spit out, then I wait for a desk rep to take my bag and check my ID. If I pre-paid at home, and did a home check in, I still have to go to the desk, show my ID, and present my bags to the desk rep.

I see no savings in personnel time either way.
It's really more of an effort to smooth the check-in process. If you checked in online with bags, the representative only has to check your ID, slap tags on your bags, and off they, and you, go. Visiting a kiosk on the day of departure wouldn't even be necessary because you've done everything ahead of time. If you didn't check in online with bags, then a kiosk visit is required. The difference in process time is more than clear.

Allegiant can sometimes get you there for even cheaper than that!

daxomni, I think you and I are usually on the same page when it comes to realism of many of the suggestions around here. Sure, taking 77 hours to get to Disney versus a 3 hour flight can be possible and enjoyable for some board members (and more power to them by all means), but for everybody else in the population, it's just unfeasible. People have set schedules, and unless they're retired or on summer vacation with no job or something, flying is the only way to make a vacation happen on a set schedule without having conflicts. The majority of people going to Disney simply don't have the luxury of taking days to get there and back via Amtrak, even if they desire to do so.
Nonsense. You do realize most people DRIVE to Florida on family vacations?
That's one hell of an assumption. You got numbers to support that statement? How about those families that are more than a day's travel away by car? More than 2?
 
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How does the location of the credit card reader change the workload of the employees at the terminal? I go to a self check in kiosk, I swipe my card to identify myself, I check in, opt for a checked bag, swipe my card again, confirm check in, and my boarding passes spit out, then I wait for a desk rep to take my bag and check my ID. If I pre-paid at home, and did a home check in, I still have to go to the desk, show my ID, and present my bags to the desk rep.

I see no savings in personnel time either way.
It's really more of an effort to smooth the check-in process. If you checked in online with bags, the representative only has to check your ID, slap tags on your bags that have automatically printed off as a result of the completion of your kiosk check in, and off they, and you, go. Visiting a kiosk on the day of departure wouldn't even be necessary because you've done everything ahead of time. If you didn't check in online with bags, then a kiosk visit is required. The difference in process time is more than clear.

Allegiant can sometimes get you there for even cheaper than that!

daxomni, I think you and I are usually on the same page when it comes to realism of many of the suggestions around here. Sure, taking 77 hours to get to Disney versus a 3 hour flight can be possible and enjoyable for some board members (and more power to them by all means), but for everybody else in the population, it's just unfeasible. People have set schedules, and unless they're retired or on summer vacation with no job or something, flying is the only way to make a vacation happen on a set schedule without having conflicts. The majority of people going to Disney simply don't have the luxury of taking days to get there and back via Amtrak, even if they desire to do so.
Nonsense. You do realize most people DRIVE to Florida on family vacations?
That's one hell of an assumption. You got numbers to support that statement? How about those families that are more than a day's travel away by car? More than 2?

I've read that numerous times. You realize that anywhere's from New York to Chicago are within a one day drive. Even stopping one night doesn't mean your vacation time is ruined. With a young family most people I know drive it from the New England area. And this is an affluent area. As people get older they tend to fly, but I still know a lot of people that drive it.
 
I've read that numerous times. You realize that anywhere's from New York to Chicago are within a one day drive. Even stopping one night doesn't mean your vacation time is ruined. With a young family most people I know drive it from the New England area. And this is an affluent area. As people get older they tend to fly, but I still know a lot of people that drive it.
So a close to 20 hour drive to Disney from Chicago or a 22 hour drive from Providence RI is now considered a one day drive? You must have some stamina, man. That would be a full two day travel time, especially with young kids in the car. Stopping halfway after one day and driving the rest the next would put you into the Disney area late in the afternoon or in the early evening on the second day. Although it's entirely possible to do, especially on a weekend, my point was that anything farther out would almost surely involve flying.
 
I've read that numerous times. You realize that anywhere's from New York to Chicago are within a one day drive. Even stopping one night doesn't mean your vacation time is ruined. With a young family most people I know drive it from the New England area. And this is an affluent area. As people get older they tend to fly, but I still know a lot of people that drive it.
So a close to 20 hour drive to Disney from Chicago or a 22 hour drive from Providence RI is now considered a one day drive? You must have some stamina, man. That would be a full two day travel time, especially with young kids in the car. Stopping halfway after one day and driving the rest the next would put you into the Disney area late in the afternoon or in the early evening on the second day. Although it's entirely possible to do, especially on a weekend, my point was that anything farther out would almost surely involve flying.

From St. Louis most families drive to Florida once their children are older than two and need a plane ticket purchased. I would say half drive straight through (leave at 3 or 4 AM) the other half stay the night either in TN or after Atlanta so as to be spared rush hour. Even my most well-off relatives with children don't fly the whole family to Orlando, although sometimes secondary relatives might fly in to join the family with the children over two who drove.

Another factor is that generally coming from St. Louis a family would want a day at the beach as well and the theme parks. Plus any family with several young kids really wants a condo with a kitchen rather than staying at a hotel and relying on shuttles. Kids will definitely make you miss shuttles. So in practice this means a rental car. So now you have airfare for four or five plus a rental car. It turns out to be much cheaper to drive instead. I don't know if these are exactly the reasons, but I do know that I observe families from STL who fly to CO ski vacations and fly to AZ and even fly to MIA driving to ORL. Maybe it is completely irrational like lemmings all going of the same cliff because it is what everyone else does. I don't know. I know in my life I have made this drive three or four times and declined invitations to accompany relatives making the drive three more times. I have some family in central FL, so not all the trips I took were "Disney" trips but all the trips I declined were.

Jenn
 
Pretty simple. If you don't think the sleeper service is worth it than don't take the train. The sleepers pretty much sell out so saying "it isn't special to anyone" is simply not true. Plenty of travelers are willing to pay for the sleepers.
It's special to rail fans like us and to retirees who don't have any particular place to go and all the time in the world to get there. But to working age/class folks who only have limited vacation time and funds, sleeper cars make absolutely no sense as a value proposition. They'd blow through their whole vacation and their whole budget just getting to their destination and back.
 
The SAS-ORL (and even ATL-ORL) routes are uneconomical largely because of gaps in the system in the South (notably the lack of any train leaving FL for anywhere but WAS-NYP). I think that the picture might be different if at the very least you still had the Sunset East, not to mention any of a number of other routes that would've filled in that (rather glaring) gap.

That's partly why I considered DAL-ORL as a reward trip: Three days on a two-zone reward in a sleeper and I'm respectably close to getting back my cost of the reward (and I'm thinking the "cash value" of 10,000 points=$100 that you can get on a lot of gift cards) on food alone.

In terms of time, the train makes sense (in terms of time) for a lot of people up to about a 16-hour overnight trip. The sleepers aren't too bad if you calculate the cost of the food, a night in a hotel, and often the airport cab ride against them...that's how WAS-CHI tends to come out ahead on math on the lower buckets. The Florida trains tend to be a bit more expensive (there's a demand crunch there), but it still doesn't tend to come out too badly if you can swing free parking at your station.
 
Nonsense. You do realize most people DRIVE to Florida on family vacations?
Are you crazy? the only time I drove to Florida from New England was when I was 21 years old - and I would never do it again.

I don't know of any families in New England that drive to Florida. It is too far and too long.

In fact, my sister thinks I am crazy when I drive to Philly (or take the train). Anything south of NYC to her is a flight.
 
We have always driven to Florida for the reasons already mentioned, needed a car, kids, staying in condos off the disney property, visiting other sites in Florida. Of course, we are in Virginia and it is not nearly as far as New England. However, I-95 is full of cars with northeast license plates all the way through Florida, so plenty of those northeast folks do make that drive, as well as Ohio and other mid-west states.
 
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