Could Amtrak Subcontract Dining

[volkris]

Actually, I'd be interested in seeing Amtrak move toward farming out an LD line (in baby steps, perhaps) just to get some fresh ideas in the process.

When I look around at the big, established chain restaurants I see more than food that I generally don't respect, I see dynamic, diverse shops catering very well to their target audiences while managing state of the art inventory control on the back end. Meanwhile I look at Amtrak dining and see about the opposite: the only dynamism they seem to embody is based on cost cutting to satisfy bureaucratic efforts.

I wonder how well Amtrak dining is serving the customers that Amtrak as a whole should be targeting, and I wonder what different ideas an Applebee's, a Chile's, or a McDonald's (who, let's not forget, spun off Chipotle) could bring to the table. Maybe given a dining car to customize from scratch they'd come up with something drastically different from what we have now... and maybe it's time for that.

 

[AlanB]

So you don't consider Amtrak's Culinary Advisory Team that is responsible for the new menus dynamic?

Frankly I'd much rather be eating food dreamed up by the guys on that list, than someone at McDonalds.

 

[volkris]

So you don't consider Amtrak's Culinary Advisory Team that is responsible for the new menus dynamic?
Frankly I'd much rather be eating food dreamed up by the guys on that list, than someone at McDonalds.

No, I'm not nearly as informed about the inner workings of Amtrak as the rest of you. But no matter who might be advising the company, I see what I see.

How much sway does the advisory team really have, though? With all of the complaining about SDS that I see going on here, and the general lack inspired change that I see on the trains, what are they really doing? And what role does Aramark play in the decision-making operation? In the end all the advisors in the world don't mean anything unless they're listened to, and it takes an army of non-chefs working with chefs to make a really successful dining service.

And you say you'd rather have food from one of these guys than from someone at McDonalds... but that's the point: McDonalds makes a particular type of food not because they can't think of anything else, but because they know how to serve their customers who want that particular food. As bad, low class, and whatever else McDonalds may be, it seems that they've managed to reinvent themselves a number of times in response to changing customer attitudes while Amtrak dining has stayed relatively still.

Maybe that's for the best--I'm not suggesting that we change for the sake of change--but then I suspect a drastic slate may be just what we need in this era of change.

 

[jackal]

As tempted as I am to get involved in the union debate, I'll abstain from this round.

I would like to make a datapoint, though, that contracted dining seems to work perfectly fine on the Alaska Railroad. Currently, a company by the name of EDS runs the ARR's dining operations, and they do a darn good job of it. The food is very good.

Then again, our OBS staff are not unionized (in fact, they're mostly high school students serving as attendants/tour guides, with a just-out-of-high-school former guide as the OBS supervisor), so there is no existing infrastructure with which to run a dining operation. I suppose the idea is that the railroad shouldn't waste energy trying to do something that's not in its area of expertise when there are others who can do it more efficiently and more effectively.

 

[Hamhock]

And you say you'd rather have food from one of these guys than from someone at McDonalds... but that's the point: McDonalds makes a particular type of food not because they can't think of anything else, but because they know how to serve their customers who want that particular food. As bad, low class, and whatever else McDonalds may be, it seems that they've managed to reinvent themselves a number of times in response to changing customer attitudes while Amtrak dining has stayed relatively still.
Maybe that's for the best--I'm not suggesting that we change for the sake of change--but then I suspect a drastic slate may be just what we need in this era of change.

No, God, no. Just no. The last thing we need is further degradation of food service in the diner car because a majority of the wide-rumped like eating swill. Sometimes it's more important to cater to the snob rather than the slob. If I wanted a high-school cafeteria cheeseburger, well, that's what the lounge car menu is for.

 

[AlanB]

So you don't consider Amtrak's Culinary Advisory Team that is responsible for the new menus dynamic?
Frankly I'd much rather be eating food dreamed up by the guys on that list, than someone at McDonalds.

No, I'm not nearly as informed about the inner workings of Amtrak as the rest of you. But no matter who might be advising the company, I see what I see.

How much sway does the advisory team really have, though? With all of the complaining about SDS that I see going on here, and the general lack inspired change that I see on the trains, what are they really doing? And what role does Aramark play in the decision-making operation? In the end all the advisors in the world don't mean anything unless they're listened to, and it takes an army of non-chefs working with chefs to make a really successful dining service.

And you say you'd rather have food from one of these guys than from someone at McDonalds... but that's the point: McDonalds makes a particular type of food not because they can't think of anything else, but because they know how to serve their customers who want that particular food. As bad, low class, and whatever else McDonalds may be, it seems that they've managed to reinvent themselves a number of times in response to changing customer attitudes while Amtrak dining has stayed relatively still.

Maybe that's for the best--I'm not suggesting that we change for the sake of change--but then I suspect a drastic slate may be just what we need in this era of change.

They have considerable sway, since they first totally revised the Acela First class menus and even influenced some changes in what the cafe car on Acela sells, and then they turned to the dining car menus.

Regarding Acela, the food has gone way upscale from where it was 4 years ago. There are those who might not like some of the offerings these days, as they prefer say a simple dish of chicken and carrots or string beans. But since Acela caters to business people the food is appropriate for the majority of the clientel that patronize the FC car. You can view some of the menu samplings here.

Turning to the LD's, again the team had considerable input into the new menu that was introduced last October. Most of the complaints about SDS that you read here either predate that change, are from a rider who hasn't traveled since October, are related to the problems associated with the diner-lite cars, or involve concerns about staffing and service. But most people that I've spoken with who have tried the new menus have been quite pleased with the improvements brought about by the culinary advisory team and the change of the vendor from Gate Gourmet to Aramark.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Amtrak will never sell out to chains... that would be the stupidest idea ever. They need a caterer who specializes in food that can be prepared on-site and transported onto the trains and kept fresh for three days while it is being served while enhancing the taste and experience to the pax.

IMHO there are two things that will stunt an otherwise perfectly good dining car-- consistency and atmosphere.

The consistency of dining cars between trains is whack. You can get a perfectly great three days of meals on the EB then transfer to the CL and eat dinner that night and its crap... and the menu items could be the same darn things. Now I compare this to chains like Denny's where food can vary greatly from location to location. But this is even worse on Amtrak which sometimes seems to have really REALLY bad days. One great day on the EB can turn sour the next.

The second thing-- atmosphere. I have had bad meals in good establishments and found them tolerable. I have had great meals in horrible establishments and said "Never coming back." It's not just a matter of the OBS crew, but a matter of the decor, which seems to have taken a turn for the worse. The CCC is nice design visually, perhaps not practical, but it looks nice. The plates, the dinnerware, who wants to eat off of plastic and use a plastic cup for your wine? Those things can easily be crushed without much pressure--

Think of it, would you still go to Gordon Ramsay's At The London if they served the same food, but on styrofoam plates and used Dixie cups?

You make the experience better and believe me you'll psych the mind into making the food taste better.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

Those things can easily be crushed without much pressure--

This might be a feature from the perspective of those who have to take out the trash.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Those things can easily be crushed without much pressure--

This might be a feature from the perspective of those who have to take out the trash.

Yeah, well sorry I want my wine served in a glass I'm sure isn't going to crack in my palm.

 

[volkris]

This "I'll be damned if my precious Amtrak is going to cater to the unwashed masses, serving commoner swill" attitude is just what I'm talking about. I may not like the atmosphere and food of the big chains--I find it really depressing, personally--but all of the people going to those chains, planning their weeks around their trips to the local soul-less establishment, sure do.

I once worked for a small startup company that had such an attitude. Despite our struggling to break even and start turning a profit, the owner of the place refused to meet the wants of potential customers. "If they don't like having my giant, scary dog lunge at their children when they walk through the door, then I don't want their business anyway!"

The potentially very lucrative business never managed to bring in much money and failed in a year.

Maybe the swill that passes for food in modern America would more efficiently and effectively serve passengers even on LD trains. Maybe it would increase ridership, knowledge of, and demand for Amtrak's services if people who aren't psyched about train travel itself could get psyched about hip casual dining en route to their destination. I don't think we should turn our backs on that opportunity just because it involves choices that we, personally and individually, would not like.

Anyway, AlanB, as I said there is far more to dining than the menu. Subcontracting dining wouldn't be about mainly about the menu, it would be about all of the infrastructure behind serving food, which is where SDS failed.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

This "I'll be damned if my precious Amtrak is going to cater to the unwashed masses, serving commoner swill" attitude is just what I'm talking about. I may not like the atmosphere and food of the big chains--I find it really depressing, personally--but all of the people going to those chains, planning their weeks around their trips to the local soul-less establishment, sure do.

But how many of those people eat every single meal at the same chain for a few days in a row?

 

[volkris]

But how many of those people eat every single meal at the same chain for a few days in a row?

What's your point?

These restaurants don't sell food, they sell a dining experience tailored to their customers' wants. THAT's what they're good at.

Obviously they can't just jam an Applebee's in a dining car. Even if it was physically possible it wouldn't serve the wants of a customer who'll be eating there meal after meal. They would instead propose something entirely new that would target whatever customers Amtrak wants to attract, just as they engineer their own restaurants to attract the customers they identify as their target market.

That these chains are so successful with such mediocre food is testament to how good they are at their jobs, and shows the level of expertise they have to offer Amtrak.

Maybe these folks would look at the requirements for serving food on trains and decide they don't have any ideas, the current methods are the best there is. That's fine. But I'd at least be interested in see if they could come up with anything.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

But how many of those people eat every single meal at the same chain for a few days in a row?

What's your point?

His point is that if you're going transcon you're only choice in dining option will be some flakey cheesy joint YOU wanna stuff inside a diner for at least three days two nights, maybe more if you're going across three AGR zones.

Do I like TGI Fridays? Yeah, sure. Would I eat breakfast lunch and dinner there for three days straight? Not on my life.

Amtrak's diners need to offer a variety of basic dining options that everybody can enjoy for three meals. I don't see any of your chains offering all three meals by the way, what would you suggest, "Cracker Barrel on the Rails"?

 

[volkris]

Amtrak's diners need to offer a variety of basic dining options that everybody can enjoy for three meals. I don't see any of your chains offering all three meals by the way, what would you suggest, "Cracker Barrel on the Rails"?

Again: these chains don't sell food, they sell the experience demanded by their customers. Amtrak's customers demand the experience of meals that that they can eat for days on end. Ergo, the chains, when operating in conjunction with Amtrak, would provide the type of food that customers would need.

Heck, if it helps you get your mind around it, let's just assume the subcontractors would be using the exact same menu. What's on the plate is only a small part of the equation... just look at the trash served at the chains.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Amtrak's diners need to offer a variety of basic dining options that everybody can enjoy for three meals. I don't see any of your chains offering all three meals by the way, what would you suggest, "Cracker Barrel on the Rails"?

Again: these chains don't sell food, they sell the experience demanded by their customers. Amtrak's customers demand the experience of meals that that they can eat for days on end. Ergo, the chains, when operating in conjunction with Amtrak, would provide the type of food that customers would need.

Heck, if it helps you get your mind around it, let's just assume the subcontractors would be using the exact same menu. What's on the plate is only a small part of the equation... just look at the trash served at the chains.

But not everybody likes Cheeseburger in Paradise... I'd love to see the couples on their 50th Anneversary celebrating it with a Jimmy Buffet song.

Where do you think the word "diner" as in the type of food-service outpost comes from? Old converted rail cars... diners. People don't go to a dining car for cheap thrills, they go to eat.

Does the atmosphere need tweaking? Yeah-- but do I want stupid 80's music and 16 pieces of flair? No. I want good food served on good plates in a proper diner.

 

[jmbgeg]

This "I'll be damned if my precious Amtrak is going to cater to the unwashed masses, serving commoner swill" attitude is just what I'm talking about. I may not like the atmosphere and food of the big chains--I find it really depressing, personally--but all of the people going to those chains, planning their weeks around their trips to the local soul-less establishment, sure do.

But how many of those people eat every single meal at the same chain for a few days in a row?

It would be nice if Amtrak did not serve the same identical dinner menu (including specials) on consecutive nights of a long distance train like EB. At least (1) vary the specials night to night; or (2) vary the entire menu night to night; or (3) at the very least, vary the eastbound menu from the westbound. You can say that restaurants usually don't vary menus night by night, but they usually have more than five or six selections. All in all, dinner is usually enjoyable on the EB, but they could add variety and do better. Also, why don't they add a parlour car like the CS to the EB (with special menu selections)? I know that is more overhead, but how does it work on the CS but not the EB?

 

[p&sr]

But not everybody likes Cheeseburger in Paradise... I'd love to see the couples on their 50th Anneversary celebrating it with a Jimmy Buffet song.

Buffet! Of course! Hey, Dude, you've found the Answer! Buffet Dining on the Train is just the Rail Experience America has been waiting for. Just help yourself to all your favorite items, then sit down and enjoy it in spacious comfort while watching the scenery roll by past your Window.

Lots of the better quality Casinos across America offer delicious Buffets, and they are experts at hosting special events and occasions as well. What could be more natural than to welcome them On Board in your Local Dining Car?

PS -- Maybe they could host a little Card Action in the Lounge Car for the evening hours. Anyone for 21?

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

But not everybody likes Cheeseburger in Paradise... I'd love to see the couples on their 50th Anneversary celebrating it with a Jimmy Buffet song.

Buffet! Of course! Hey, Dude, you've found the Answer! Buffet Dining on the Train is just the Rail Experience America has been waiting for. Just help yourself to all your favorite items, then sit down and enjoy it in spacious comfort while watching the scenery roll by past your Window.

Lots of the better quality Casinos across America offer delicious Buffets, and they are experts at hosting special events and occasions as well. What could be more natural than to welcome them On Board in your Local Dining Car?

PS -- Maybe they could host a little Card Action in the Lounge Car for the evening hours. Anyone for 21?

They tried that pre-Amtrak, and IIRC some Amtrak trains continued for awhile with it. It isn't cost-effective or clean... or sanitary sometimes.

 

[p&sr]

They tried that pre-Amtrak, and IIRC some Amtrak trains continued for awhile with it. It isn't cost-effective or clean... or sanitary sometimes.

Yeah, you get that with crooked dealers sometimes. They should probably "clean up their act". It's a bigger problem with the Dice Games though. Besides, they wouldn't roll right on a moving Train.

 

[volkris]

Where do you think the word "diner" as in the type of food-service outpost comes from? Old converted rail cars... diners. People don't go to a dining car for cheap thrills, they go to eat.

That's simply not the case.

Look around at how people here are talking about the dining. It's about the experience, about the utensils, about the way people dress, and everything else. Clearly what's happening in the dining car goes far beyond basic utilitarian need to eat.

And why shouldn't that be the case? What's wrong with creating a dining environment that effectively feeds AND provides some "cheap thrills" while the passenger is there? Obviously some people look forward to on-train dining, what if it could be a matter of focus that more people book Amtrak instead of driving or flying because the dining experience is just that much of an event?

Peoples' attitudes have changed tremendously in the past decades, while other than an updated menu or two Amtrak's dining seems to be standing still on the customer-facing side. If one of these chains can do a better job connecting with the target customer base, then that should be encouraged.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Where do you think the word "diner" as in the type of food-service outpost comes from? Old converted rail cars... diners. People don't go to a dining car for cheap thrills, they go to eat.

That's simply not the case.

Look around at how people here are talking about the dining. It's about the experience, about the utensils, about the way people dress, and everything else. Clearly what's happening in the dining car goes far beyond basic utilitarian need to eat.

And why shouldn't that be the case? What's wrong with creating a dining environment that effectively feeds AND provides some "cheap thrills" while the passenger is there? Obviously some people look forward to on-train dining, what if it could be a matter of focus that more people book Amtrak instead of driving or flying because the dining experience is just that much of an event?

Peoples' attitudes have changed tremendously in the past decades, while other than an updated menu or two Amtrak's dining seems to be standing still on the customer-facing side. If one of these chains can do a better job connecting with the target customer base, then that should be encouraged.

Yes, it is about the decor and such... but RAIL dining isn't like TGI Fridays. It has china, it has a certain bygone feeling to it-- it is graceful. Why would you want to dump all that in favor of cheap songs, cheap everything... Amtrak has to serve people from all over America and tourists from overseas. It must provide an industry standard. That's why the rooms are the same size, the seats are the same size, the colors are all un-offensive enough that nobody objects.

You make the diners into a frilly nonsense then you'll get some people who go "cool" some who go "what the f---" and some who just refuse to eat there costing Amtrak money.

Your plans amount to nothing more than spending a lot of money Amtrak doesn't have and steering customers away. Why can't "Amtrak" be its own brand? Why do we need a Ruby Tuesdays? Amtrak stands on its own.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

It would be nice if Amtrak did not serve the same identical dinner menu (including specials) on consecutive nights of a long distance train like EB. At least (1) vary the specials night to night; or (2) vary the entire menu night to night; or (3) at the very least, vary the eastbound menu from the westbound. You can say that restaurants usually don't vary menus night by night, but they usually have more than five or six selections. All in all, dinner is usually enjoyable on the EB, but they could add variety and do better.

I would prefer to have the same items available every night, actually. If I'm in the mood for a steak the first night of a multi-day trip, but that night's special also sounds appealing, why shouldn't I be able to have the steak the first night and the special the following night?

And, if they had different items eastbound than westbound, what do they do with any unconsumed meals at the end of each run? Should they make a point of having those eating dinner at the last seating on the last day of the trip not getting any choice in dinner so that they won't have the problem of leftover food at the end of the run?

I do think a wider variety of menu choices might well be a good thing. Having a burger for lunch has worked for BOS<->CHI/SOB trips where I only get one lunch on the round trip; I'm really not sure what I'll do if I end up getting lunch in both directions. Maybe a burger for lunch twice, a week apart, will be OK.

Also, why don't they add a parlour car like the CS to the EB (with special menu selections)? I know that is more overhead, but how does it work on the CS but not the EB?

The Pacific Parlor Cars are a part of the Heritage fleet. IIRC, there are exactly five of them, and there are four CS trainsets. Given the set of equipment Amtrak happens to have, it would not be possible to move the PPCs to the Empire Builder and have a PPC on every Empire Builder departure.

You can certainly write to your Congresspeople asking them to fund the construction of special lounge cars for sleeping car passengers on the Empire Builder.

 

[volkris]

You don't get it.

These corporations don't put out silly songs and froofy decor and then hope that customers show up for it; they study the customer base and engineer a dining experience that the customers want. That's their business. Why would you think they would throw froofy decor at Amtrak service if the Amtrak customers wouldn't respond to it? You don't give them nearly enough credit.

If "wistful song of the past" is determined to be the right atmosphere for the dining car, OF COURSE that's what would be provided.

These companies are experts at satisfying customers, feeding them cost effectively, and getting them in and out quickly. Unsurprisingly, that's precisely what Amtrak has to do in its dining cars. So why not seek to combine the food services expertise of the national chains with the train expertise of Amtrak? You're slamming the door in the face of people who do nothing but deal with crafting dining experience day in and day out. In computer circles we call that NIH (Not Invented Here) syndrome.

There's no way Amtrak has, internally, the expertise that these chains have at running dining services, and from what I've seen, Amtrak lacks the PR and consumer analysis resources as well. But that's what these corporations have in spades; again, that's their entire business.

And finally, it's likely that a deal would be brokered whereby Amtrak would have to pay very little of the cost, much like the Subway deal.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

No YOU don't get it. Amtrak isn't about the ruddy dining car. It's a mode of travel! People want to have a relaxing trip with a quality standard universal service.... You start painting cars and making Amtrak into a rolling billboard for a cheesy dive and you're selling out the brand.

Yes, Amtrak has a brand. It's called Amtrak.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Actually, I'd be interested in seeing Amtrak move toward farming out an LD line (in baby steps, perhaps) just to get some fresh ideas in the process.
When I look around at the big, established chain restaurants I see more than food that I generally don't respect, I see dynamic, diverse shops catering very well to their target audiences while managing state of the art inventory control on the back end. Meanwhile I look at Amtrak dining and see about the opposite: the only dynamism they seem to embody is based on cost cutting to satisfy bureaucratic efforts.

I wonder how well Amtrak dining is serving the customers that Amtrak as a whole should be targeting, and I wonder what different ideas an Applebee's, a Chile's, or a McDonald's (who, let's not forget, spun off Chipotle) could bring to the table. Maybe given a dining car to customize from scratch they'd come up with something drastically different from what we have now... and maybe it's time for that.

I know of three chains that serve food that actually qualify as edible. Giordano's, Five Guys Burgers, and Wawa. And Wawa isn't even a restaurant chain. Other than those three, and I would love to see Wawa running Cafe/Lounge cars on Amtrak, I have yet to find any chain that creates livable, let alone good, food. I eat 90% of my meals at home because nobody does it better, and the other 10% are at local independent places.

And you say you'd rather have food from one of these guys than from someone at McDonalds... but that's the point: McDonalds makes a particular type of food not because they can't think of anything else, but because they know how to serve their customers who want that particular food. As bad, low class, and whatever else McDonalds may be, it seems that they've managed to reinvent themselves a number of times in response to changing customer attitudes while Amtrak dining has stayed relatively still.

McDonalds succeeds because of two things: 1) they have good marketing. 2) they cater to smoking, beer drinking white trailer trash. They aren't known for the functionality of their tastebuds. They have to be dysfunctional not to barf at the smell, let alone the taste. They have never reinvented themselves. They merely change names and re-do their marketing campaign.

A good burger is a delicious dish. Its about 3/4 of an inch thick, made out of buffalo and lamb, properly spiced, served with goats cheese, port cheddar and thick slices of bacon. A McDonalds burger is about 40% Grade C beef, 60% pureed prunes, some kind of cheap tasteless American cheese, a few slices of cardboard colored to look sorta like bacon, and a bunch of crappy condiments to mask the taste. If Amtrak hired them as a consultant, I wouldn't want Boardman fired. No, I'd want him committed and given a solid and deserved lobotomy.

Buffet! Of course! Hey, Dude, you've found the Answer! Buffet Dining on the Train is just the Rail Experience America has been waiting for. Just help yourself to all your favorite items, then sit down and enjoy it in spacious comfort while watching the scenery roll by past your Window.
Lots of the better quality Casinos across America offer delicious Buffets, and they are experts at hosting special events and occasions as well. What could be more natural than to welcome them On Board in your Local Dining Car?

PS -- Maybe they could host a little Card Action in the Lounge Car for the evening hours. Anyone for 21?

They had them. For coach passengers on the Auto Train, and for other passengers on the Silver Meteor and Silver Star