Covid Mask Mandate for Transportation

[City of Miami]

I have been deeply considering a 3 to 5 day trip to the Berkshires in late August for my first excursion since March 2020. Today it registered that all the travel (~22 hours on Amtrak, 8-10 hrs on buses) will have to be masked. Nope. Really don't think I'm going to choose that. Woulda been my first Acela too.

 

[west point]

Some one is going all the way to SCOTUS changeling the mask mandate on airplanes.

 

[flitcraft]

Has the Supreme Court agreed to hear such a case, and from which circuit? It's easy to say, "I'm taking this to the Supreme Court," but it's hard to actually succeed in doing so. Trust me on this; when I was in practice I probably filed twenty petitions for Supreme Court review, and never succeeded in getting a case accepted there for decision.

 

[Anderson]

Some one is going all the way to SCOTUS changeling the mask mandate on airplanes.

I think you meant "challenging"?

Has the Supreme Court agreed to hear such a case, and from which circuit? It's easy to say, "I'm taking this to the Supreme Court," but it's hard to actually succeed in doing so. Trust me on this; when I was in practice I probably filed twenty petitions for Supreme Court review, and never succeeded in getting a case accepted there for decision.

My guess is that something here will be taken up. There's at least one case pending out of Florida and one out of Texas IIRC:
-The FL one is based on the fact that the person was taking a flight from (IIRC) Orlando-Miami with no connection, so trying to argue "not interstate commerce". My guess is that's a bad line to argue with a major carrier. With a "local" carrier you might be able to argue it...but I don't think there are any significant single-state carriers in operation since the defense is simply "Look, the staff and most of the pax are moving between states".
-The TX one is arguing against the mandate within the airport, which gets a little bit stickier since you're not quite in the same "enclosed space for an extended period of time" in the terminal as you are in the plane. My guess is that the plaintiffs might actually win here, given that you can go around Disney World sans mask except on the Monorail, Buses, and Skyliner and the guidance has changed. I wouldn't be surprised to see a snarky opinion from Alito noting that the CDC guidance seemed to "miraculously" avoid contradicting the EO. But that doesn't deal with "on the plane", just "in the station". Put into an Amtrak context, explaining why someone needs a mask at Union Station but not in Gallery Place or at the Old Post Office (at least per the law; I'm not sure what the rules in those facilities are) also gets a little strained (and at least with Amtrak you have a "company" issuing the policy...it's rather a stretch to claim that a bunch of airports, particularly relatively lightly-used smaller-city ones, would choose an identical policy).

There's a good chance that a red-leaning circuit (say, the Fifth, which has a 12-5 appointment edge for Republicans vs Democrats, and which includes Texas) might bounce the policy, which could lead to a real mess if the SC doesn't take it up (let's face it, I don't think anyone wants to face a situation where there's an un-stayed circuit ruling bouncing a policy like this in part of the country..."You have to wear a mask except while connecting in Texas" is a great formula for FAs to just stop trying).

Also, I'd have to check the FAA "proposed fines" but I feel like there's some room for some litigation on that front as well (if only because of the administrative process at hand there). But that's its own kettle of fish.

 

[Anderson]

Just a data point, I'm on an Acela from NYC to BOS and there was an Amtrak employee in an unusual uniform walking through the train and enforcing mask compliance. He wasn't in the usual conductor or attendant garb, he was wearing blue pants, white shirt and of all things, a large bow tie. He was polite but stopped at every seat and told people to put their masks fully over their noses unless they had actual food or drink in front of them. There were a few dirty looks from casual mask avoiders, but no one argued with him. He didn't move on until the mask was correctly in place.

I'm 100% in favor of mask wearing, but this was a little strange.

I'm going to sound a bit snarky with this, but it sounds like they found a way to meet the "bring everyone back from furlough" mandate without having all of the trains running.

 

[Exvalley]

A woman sitting across from me on the Northeast Regional to New York City did not wear a mask for the entire trip - including when the seat next to her was taken. Nobody said a word.

What a jerk!

 

[me_little_me]

Got my 2nd shot Feb28. About May slacked up on mask wearing but by June full mask again after "Delta" started to showing up. My biggest worry is that otherwise I could become asymptomatic and spread it to non vaccinated persons. That is especially for my relations that are under 12. Anyone not vaccinated better not get around them and cause any to get "delta" or any other variant.. 99% of C-19 deaths now are non vaccinated persons.

It distress us that the approval for under 12s is taking so long. Would not want to be in any of all school official positions that has as unvaccinated child die .

Since the safety testing for small children has not been completed, would you want to be the one who is responsible for the health and life of smaller children on a not-fully-tested vaccine? Children have a noticeable lower rate of getting the disease or of dying of it which might be an indication of something the vaccine might interfere with so safety testing is paramount. Moreover, if more kids have problems with the vaccine than adults, the loony-news people would have a field day and fewer adults would come over from the dark side.

The government, CDC [i.e. medical people - who are part of the government] and the vaccine manufacturers have done a good job so far. Let them decide when it is safe. And I speak as a grandparent of a 2 and 10 y/o who hopes they can be vaccinated soon.

 

[City of Miami]

A woman sitting across from me on the Northeast Regional to New York City did not wear a mask for the entire trip - including when the seat next to her was taken. Nobody said a word.

What a jerk!

Was she coughing or sneezing? Was she talking loudly, shouting or singing? If none of the above and she did not appear unwell it's probably not worthwhile to make a confrontation on the slight chance she's an asymptomatic spreader. Always a personal judgement call. I would move to another car if I was uncomfortable.

 

[Exvalley]

Was she coughing or sneezing? Was she talking loudly, shouting or singing? If none of the above and she did not appear unwell it's probably not worthwhile to make a confrontation on the slight chance she's an asymptomatic spreader. Always a personal judgement call. I would move to another car if I was uncomfortable.

She was talking on the phone quite a bit, but not loudly.

I am fully vaccinated, so I wasn't going to make an issue of it - but the selfishness of her behavior really struck me. I was also disappointed that the train crew was not enforcing the mask mandate.

 

[adamj023]

Some one is going all the way to SCOTUS changeling the mask mandate on airplanes.

I posted awhile ago on the Amtrak forums that the mask mandate for vaccinated travelers and those with antibodies who had the virus before is absolutely ridiculous and Senator Rand Paul proposed a bill for such in congress. Unfortunately it seems unlikely to pass. Hopefully the SCOTUS will be receptive to the arguments. I personally have avoided taking the train and flying due to the mask mandates. I am hoping this will be changed in the foreseeable future.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

I posted awhile ago on the Amtrak forums that the mask mandate for vaccinated travelers and those with antibodies who had the virus before is absolutely ridiculous

That is only your opinion. I do not agree.

 

[daybeers]

Was she coughing or sneezing? Was she talking loudly, shouting or singing? If none of the above and she did not appear unwell it's probably not worthwhile to make a confrontation on the slight chance she's an asymptomatic spreader. Always a personal judgement call. I would move to another car if I was uncomfortable.

It shouldn't be the job of other passengers to confront those not wearing a mask.

I was also disappointed that the train crew was not enforcing the mask mandate.

This is the issue here.

I posted awhile ago on the Amtrak forums that the mask mandate for vaccinated travelers and those with antibodies who had the virus before is absolutely ridiculous and Senator Rand Paul proposed a bill for such in congress. Unfortunately it seems unlikely to pass. Hopefully the SCOTUS will be receptive to the arguments. I personally have avoided taking the train and flying due to the mask mandates. I am hoping this will be changed in the foreseeable future.

There is evidence that antibodies from those who have been infected don't last very long and don't protect against recent variants. If you don't like the mask mandate, don't travel, but there are still many who are not vaccinated in the United States, notably children, who make up nearly a quarter of the population. Not to mention those who can't get the vaccine for medical reasons. Why should they be denied using transportation if there's no alternative? Grocery stores, pharmacies, and other essential businesses have other options like delivery or contactless pickup. There's no such thing for public transit.

Cases in the U.S. are up around 40% over the past two weeks and that doesn't even include July 4th data. Maybe let's wait a little longer before saying the pandemic is over, and also be thankful we are not in a fifth wave like some countries are. Everyone in the U.S. can get a vaccine if they can and want to; that is far from the truth around the world.

 

[City of Miami]

That is only your opinion. I do not agree.

Well, the government of VA disagrees with YOU and they speak for 8.6 million people.

 

[Eric S]

As of now, the mandate ends in, what, two months? My guess is that the likeliest outcome is that it is allowed to expire. (I'm not arguing that this is or is not a good idea, nor stating what I think should or should not happen, just guessing what I think is likely to happen.)

 

[City of Miami]

It shouldn't be the job of other passengers to confront those not wearing a mask.

This is the issue here.

There is evidence that antibodies from those who have been infected don't last very long and don't protect against recent variants. If you don't like the mask mandate, don't travel, but there are still many who are not vaccinated in the United States, notably children, who make up nearly a quarter of the population. Not to mention those who can't get the vaccine for medical reasons. Why should they be denied using transportation if there's no alternative? Grocery stores, pharmacies, and other essential businesses have other options like delivery or contactless pickup. There's no such thing for public transit.

Cases in the U.S. are up around 40% over the past two weeks and that doesn't even include July 4th data. Maybe let's wait a little longer before saying the pandemic is over, and also be thankful we are not in a fifth wave like some countries are. Everyone in the U.S. can get a vaccine if they can and want to; that is far from the truth around the world.

I have never put any faith in the efficacy of face masks. Social distancing made much more sense to me and I took it upon myself to practice that, pretty much alone as I realized many people had no notion of the concept of six feet. This is still true for me though I have relaxed a little.

 

[PVD]

She was talking on the phone quite a bit, but not loudly.

I am fully vaccinated, so I wasn't going to make an issue of it - but the selfishness of her behavior really struck me. I was also disappointed that the train crew was not enforcing the mask mandate.

There is a rule in place, and it is the job of the crew to enforce the rule. She should have been warned by the crew, and if still non compliant, booted from the train. People can debate whether or not the rule should still be in place, but that goes for lots of rules. as long as the rule is in place, follow it or pick another means to travel.

 

[City of Miami]

There is a rule in place, and it is the job of the crew to enforce the rule. She should have been warned by the crew, and if still non compliant, booted from the train. People can debate whether or not the rule should still be in place, but that goes for lots of rules. as long as the rule is in place, follow it or pick another means to travel.

So that makes it perfectly clear: the issue is others following rules, not the disease. I'm not presenting myself immune from this view but it's good to know what is going on.Thanks for saying so.

 

[PVD]

Not exactly, many people believe it has a place in preventing the spread of the disease. Some people don't. Not believing it is not an excuse for not following a rule that is in place. In responding to the earlier remark about someone remaining maskless for the whole trip, I believe that the rule, along with all the others that have to do with the safety and comfort of the other passengers should be enforced. Passengers know what the policy is in advance, if you can't live with the policy don't book a ticket....whether it's smoking, drinking your own in coach, loud music, it isn't different.

 

[City of Miami]

Precisely. So this is why, as I said way up the thread, I will almost certainly choose not to make my trip to the Berkshires next month - not because I'm afraid of COVID-19 but because I don't want to wear the mask for some 36 hours of travel time.

 

[Danib62]

Great! Staying home is even more effective at preventing the spread of COVID than wearing a mask! Glad you're doing your part!

 

[PVD]

I think you are being reasonable. There are many reasons that people may not wish to wear a mask. Some are fixable, many are not. But you aren't trying to ignore the policy to the potential detriment of others.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

I waited 3 weeks after my state's mask mandate was relaxed in May before I stopped wear masks. I wore a mask today when I volunteered at the Food Bank because I have been watching my county's numbers and they started going back up. The numbers are still quite low, but if we're in an upward trend I'm ready.

 

[John Bredin]

I posted awhile ago on the Amtrak forums that the mask mandate for vaccinated travelers and those with antibodies who had the virus before is absolutely ridiculous and Senator Rand Paul proposed a bill for such in congress. Unfortunately it seems unlikely to pass. Hopefully the SCOTUS will be receptive to the arguments. I personally have avoided taking the train and flying due to the mask mandates. I am hoping this will be changed in the foreseeable future.

I personally would love for the broad mask mandate on interstate & public transportation to be lifted, BUT:

1) there's evidence that having antibodies from being exposed to Covid does not convey the same protection as being fully vaccinated.

2) I say "broad" to refer to requiring masks regardless of vaccination. I would have no problem having to show my vaccination card or a photograph of it as a condition of traveling Amtrak (or an airliner or intercity bus) without a mask and crews booting off maskless passengers who can't show proof of vaccination. In other words, "vaccinated need not mask, unvaccinated must mask" like a lot of store signs say, but with real "teeth". I also have no problem with a broad mask mandate on public transit for the time being because enforcing an "unvaccinated must mask" rule is effectively impossible on a transit bus or light rail train and highly inconvenient at best on a commuter train.

3) I really don't relish the idea of SCOTUS or another court striking down the mask requirement.

The authority of the Federal government over interstate transportation is broad, as it its authority to impose conditions on transit systems that accept Federal funding (which is essentially all of them). Courts don't find statutes or regulations invalid just because someone believes them to be imprudent or excessive or a "bad idea"; that's an argument for the body that imposed the regulation to repeal it, or to Congress to override the regulation by statute. Unless you're talking about either a fundamental right (free speech, religion, etc.) or discrimination on race, sex, religion, etc. grounds, a government regulation with authority and any rational basis survives judicial review.

The fact that there's a population that at the moment can't be vaccinated -- children under 12 -- sure sounds like a rational basis to me. Whether you personally feel that's enough is irrelevant, if any rational person can make a rational argument for it, it's not legally invalid. Again, if you think a regulation is a bad idea but it has authority and a rational basis, your argument that it's a bad idea has to be "pitched" to the President or the Dep't of Transportation, or maybe Congress, but not the courts.

SCOTUS ignoring all that and striking down the interstate/public transport mask mandate (which I consider unlikely for the reasons just stated) would IMHO be a political decision rather than a constitutional or legal decision, and the shenanigans that would be caused in various fields of governance and politics by SCOTUS acting like a super-legislature rather than a court in such an egregious manner more than outweigh (understatement!) any momentary comfort I would get by not having to wear a mask on a train.

 

[jis]

I am wearing my N95 mask again because the numbers in my County and State are growing by leaps and bounds week by week. My State has chosen not to publish daily numbers anymore lest the utter mismanagement become too obvious to all. Soon to further their attempts at obfuscation maybe they will publish only monthly or yearly numbers. The ideology driven idiocy knows no bounds apparently.

 

[Qapla]

There are many reasons that people may not wish to wear a mask. Some are fixable, many are not

While this sentiment has been expressed from time-to-time, IMHO there needs to be an adjustment to the order of the wording ...

"Some are fixable, many are not" would be better stated as "Many are fixable, some are not" since many of the reasons/excuses given for not wearing a mask fall more in the category of not "wanting" to wear a mask ... not a physical disability.