cross country high speed corridors

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It's not clear how you power automobiles or airplanes from a nuclear reactor (or a wind farm or a coal plant).
...hence, to shoot dead the sort of insane ideas Kevin L. describes, and the madness of biofuels in general, there is only one solution: For America to set about prizing open the hands of its citizens, and removing from their firm grasp the inalienable right to drive and fly everywhere. And as fast a proliferation of high speed rail as is physically possible is a very good way of doing this.
 
Do the trains in London serve the airport terminals directly, or is a separate shuttle train/bus involved?
That is one thing London does well. Gatwick, Stanstead and Heathrow are all directly connected by conventional rail, with both premium express services and cheaper, slower services, however all suffer from serving only one terminal, requiring a transfer from any of the others on the not very suitable for luggage London Underground.(I enjoy the chance to use the system, but others will see it as more of an inconvenience). In Heathrow's case, both conventional rail and underground trains stop right underneath the terminals.
Err, trains serve all the terminals of Heathrow, but presumably you mean they only serve one London terminal rail station. Except in fact there are direct trains from Gatwick to St Pancras, Victoria, London Bridge, and Watford Junction. Points in the northeast can be reached by a single change at St Pancras, points in the northwest can be reached by a single change at Watford Junction, points in the southwest can be reached by a single change at Reading, and many points in the southeast can be reached directly, all of these with a frequency of at least once an hour. Gatwick is really one of the better-connected airports I have used. Heathrow's overpriced or slow connections are very poor by comparison (though perhaps not quite as bad as the shuttle bus required at Luton).
 
...hence, to shoot dead the sort of insane ideas Kevin L. describes, and the madness of biofuels in general, there is only one solution: For America to set about prizing open the hands of its citizens, and removing from their firm grasp the inalienable right to drive and fly everywhere. And as fast a proliferation of high speed rail as is physically possible is a very good way of doing this.
The other problem is - if we were to achieve some sort of high-speed service between major cities - what do you do for transportation once you get there with the limited intra-city service many larger cities now have. Couple that with many businesses not be located in city-center, it makes it almost necessary to rent a car when you get to the destination to then reach the final destination.

Example: I lived and worked in central Ohio for many years before retirement. I traveled sometime 3 times a week between Columbus and Cleveland or Columbus and Cincinnati. There was talk of rail service between those cities for years, and still is that talk. But my problem would have been - I lived 30 miles from the center of Columbus and the offices I traveled to in Cleveland and Cincinnati were 30 miles from city center in those places. I would have to get myself downtown Columbus to catch a train and then get myself from downtown Cleveland/Cincinnati to the office by renting a car.

Bottom line, unlike much of Europe, no local transportation defeats the entire process for many, not all, granted, but that needs to be fixed, too.

Many very large cities in the US don't have this problem. Taking a train to downtown Chicago, NYC, Boston, etc allows you to get local transportation to your final destination without a car rental.
 
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The other problem is - if we were to achieve some sort of high-speed service between major cities - what do you do for transportation once you get there with the limited intra-city service many larger cities now have. Couple that with many businesses not be located in city-center, it makes it almost necessary to rent a car when you get to the destination to then reach the final destination.
If you think of high speed rail as an airplane substitute (which it certainly is for daytime trips that happen to be under three hours by train for people who have been taking airplanes), it turns out that this is not a problem that is unique to the train that we didn't have before with the airplane.

I also think this makes an excellent argument for having Auto Train like service on the high speed tracks, at least where there is sufficient track capacity left over after establishing all the passenger only service anyone could want. The Chunnel demonstrates that this type of service can be workable at faster speeds than 79 MPH.

If the high speed tracks are built as only double track, it would be highly desireable to make the high speed auto trains go as fast as the passenger trains to maximize track capacity in an environment where passing isn't really pratical, but I suspect building rail cars that will hold at least one level of automobiles and that can go at 220 MPH or whatever speed we end up with for passenger service will probably be doable.

I suspect that high speed tracks from New York to Chicago, New York to St Louis or so, and New York to Boston may be full just carrying a variety of passenger trains, if we assume that each track can carry 18-25 trains per hour, and not providing Auto Train like service in those areas may make a lot of sense for that reason; on the other hand, that also tends to be the part of the country with better intracity rail service.

I'm also not sure if California will have enough high speed track capacity to enable everyone who currently likes to drive between San Francisco and Los Angeles on the highways to bring their very own car with them on the train. This may be an argument that if our goal is to reduce air polution and oil imports, the pricing structure on the train needs to make taking the train plus renting a car for a couple days cheaper than intercity driving. Maybe there ought to be a discount on railfare for people who rent cars, and discounts for parties of more than one person (since the cost of a five person party going by automobile equals the cost of a one person party going by automobile). Maybe a good price structure would be one that provided 80% of the cost of car rental for up to 3 days or so or a local mass transit pass for up to 7 days as a discount on the intercity ticket.

Example: I lived and worked in central Ohio for many years before retirement. I traveled sometime 3 times a week between Columbus and Cleveland or Columbus and Cincinnati. There was talk of rail service between those cities for years, and still is that talk. But my problem would have been - I lived 30 miles from the center of Columbus and the offices I traveled to in Cleveland and Cincinnati were 30 miles from city center in those places. I would have to get myself downtown Columbus to catch a train and then get myself from downtown Cleveland/Cincinnati to the office by renting a car.
Even if there turns out to be enough track capacity for a high speed Auto Train like service from Cleveland to Cincinatti, I'm not sure if it would save time vs driving. Google Maps tells me that's 142 miles, and about 2.5 hours of driving. If loading the cars takes an hour, the train trip takes an hour, and unloading the cars takes another hour, that's going to be slower than driving. Maybe it's possible to get the train time including loading and unloading competitive with driving, though; I'm not sure.

Bottom line, unlike much of Europe, no local transportation defeats the entire process for many, not all, granted, but that needs to be fixed, too.
Many very large cities in the US don't have this problem. Taking a train to downtown Chicago, NYC, Boston, etc allows you to get local transportation to your final destination without a car rental.
Yes, we do need better local transportation.

Even in Boston, which is relatively good at rail transportation as US cities go, there's a lot of room for improvement.

The Green Line is going to be getting about 4 or 5 new stops in Somerville and Medford within the next decade or so. This is a relatively cheap thing; once the Lechmere tracks are rearranged to connect to the existing Commuter Rail rights of way, the rest of the new route is already fully grade separated (I think) and wide enough for the Green Line; no tunnels or bridges needed except at the inbound end of the new segment.

Some of us would like to see the two downtown commuter rail terminals connected so that commuter trains would be through routed.

The Red Line of the subway does not connect directly to the Blue Line; the downtown end of the Blue Line at Bowdoin is about a quarter mile from the Charles/MGH station on the Red Line, and there's a plan to design (but not necessarily build) a tunnel to connect them.

More frequent service would be good on just about all of the parts of the rail system; while the waiting time at rush hour for the subway is typically just fine, subway cars tend to be quite crowded at rush hour. (I went downtown for a medical appointment Monday morning, a bit after 9 AM, and the car I was in was packed full. This can't have been the peak commute time; I suspect there are lots of office workers who absolutely have to be at work by 9 AM who would have been late for work if they'd been on that train.)

There's talk of incrementally upgrading the Fairmount Line of the commuter rail system to have properties that would more resemble the service frequencies and station spacings of a subway line; I'm disappointed that the state is moving so slowly on that, and at the same time, I'm concerned about whether they're designing the stations with the idea that someday we will want quad track along that line, with two of the tracks not ever making station stops on that line (for express passenger trains, and to provide a route for freight trains from Conley Terminal where the container ships unload to the rest of the railroad system).

When the southern part of the current Orange Line was built in the mid to late 1980s, we lost rail service along two corridors. (The truncation of the E branch of the Green Line is ``temporary'', but it makes the whole Sunset Limited thing look like it hasn't been going on for long at all.) It turns out that the buses along at least part of those corridors are among the five most popular MBTA bus routes as weekday boardings go; I think we ought to be looking at building subway tunnels along those routes. (The E branch of the Green Line ran in the automobile lanes, and the removed Orange Line was elevated, so there are good reasons for not restoring service in exactly the same form it used to take.)

There's been talk of extending the Blue Line out to Lynn. The state government is claiming they want to make this happen in a decade or two, but they don't seem terribly anxious to come up with the money, which really would be key to actually making it happen.

Even if all of these things happen, if I want to visit a friend in Framingham, I may still find that renting a car would save me at least an hour of travel time in each direction vs taking the train and getting a ride from the Framingham commuter rail station.
 
Except in fact there are direct trains from Gatwick to St Pancras, Victoria, London Bridge, and Watford Junction. Points in the northeast can be reached by a single change at St Pancras, points in the northwest can be reached by a single change at Watford Junction, points in the southwest can be reached by a single change at Reading, and many points in the southeast can be reached directly, all of these with a frequency of at least once an hour.
Ah, of course! Why did I forget that, when I actually try to fly from Gatwick instead of Heathrow whenever possible, for the very fact that I can travel from the north and change onto Thameslink at King's Cross?

Gatwick is really one of the better-connected airports I have used. Heathrow's overpriced or slow connections are very poor by comparison (though perhaps not quite as bad as the shuttle bus required at Luton).
It's London's BWI, perhaps, with Heathrow being London's Dulles (except not, Dulles is even worse). In fact, why is there no Gatwick to BWI flight, so I could have good connections at both ends of my journey? I think there should be one. How much do planes cost these days? :)
 
It's London's BWI, perhaps, with Heathrow being London's Dulles (except not, Dulles is even worse). In fact, why is there no Gatwick to BWI flight, so I could have good connections at both ends of my journey? I think there should be one. How much do planes cost these days? :)
Depends how big you want. You can probably get a decades old Cessna with seating for 2-4 people for under $50,000, but then you'd need ferry tanks to get it across the Atlantic with a noticably less direct route than what you probably have in mind, and in fact those ferry tanks would probably further limit the number of people who could be in the plane.
 
Ah, of course! Why did I forget that, when I actually try to fly from Gatwick instead of Heathrow whenever possible, for the very fact that I can travel from the north and change onto Thameslink at King's Cross?
Well I think it's wednesdays and sundays from around now till christmas you can always fly from Leeds to Newark! :)
 
Well I think it's wednesdays and sundays from around now till christmas you can always fly from Leeds to Newark! :)
Ah, that's right, for all the lawyer's wives in Harrogate to go Christmas shopping in New York!
 
Regarding lack of local transportation as brought up by MrFSS, big airports have 24/7 car rentals, but train terminals do not have nighttime car rentals when the trains get in. Look at LA as an example: If the CS gets in at its usual time, I need to catch an airport shuttle to get a rental car.
 
Regarding lack of local transportation as brought up by MrFSS, big airports have 24/7 car rentals, but train terminals do not have nighttime car rentals when the trains get in. Look at LA as an example: If the CS gets in at its usual time, I need to catch an airport shuttle to get a rental car.
Essentially, the more Amtrak invests and expands, the more potential car rental customers there are, the more the companies will be able to justify staying open at night!
 
It's not clear how you power automobiles or airplanes from a nuclear reactor (or a wind farm or a coal plant).
...hence, to shoot dead the sort of insane ideas Kevin L. describes, and the madness of biofuels in general, there is only one solution: For America to set about prizing open the hands of its citizens, and removing from their firm grasp the inalienable right to drive and fly everywhere. And as fast a proliferation of high speed rail as is physically possible is a very good way of doing this.
OK my blood is boiling but I've got to say this:

DRIVING IS NOT A RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is a priviledge granted to you by the state and the state can remove that priviledge anytime it wishes (e.g. drunk driving and license revocation)!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry Zoltan, I'm not necessarily dumping on you but I often hear people talk about certain things being "rights" which are simply not so; and by the way, I agree with your basic premise.

Rant over: Now back to our regularly scheduled program. :blink:
 
Regarding lack of local transportation as brought up by MrFSS, big airports have 24/7 car rentals, but train terminals do not have nighttime car rentals when the trains get in. Look at LA as an example: If the CS gets in at its usual time, I need to catch an airport shuttle to get a rental car.
Essentially, the more Amtrak invests and expands, the more potential car rental customers there are, the more the companies will be able to justify staying open at night!
At some point in the future (no particular date currently scheduled) I'm going to visit the greater New London, CT area. (I lived in Waterford, right next to New London, for 9 years, and aside from riding trains along the NEC without getting off, I haven't been back since I moved away from there). The car rental options there, last I checked, were a little underwhelming: Enterprise is 1/2 to 1 mile away, and not open at all on Sundays, and not open all that late on Fridays or Saturdays.

Amtrak has reasonably frequent service along the NEC, but I'm wondering how many passengers the New London train station serves every day, vs the number of passengers the typical airport serves each day. It wouldn't surprise me if the airport brings the car rental companies a lot more business all in one place. When I lived in Waterford, we always had to travel via some sort of automobile or van to either Hartford or to T F Green Airport to catch an airplane (or maybe there was token commercial service at Groton on a few occasions, but I don't remember ever flying into or out of the Groton airport).

Then again, high speed rail has the potential to increase the number of places one can get to/from New London by train in a reasonable amount of time, which may help some.
 
The other problem is - if we were to achieve some sort of high-speed service between major cities - what do you do for transportation once you get there with the limited intra-city service many larger cities now have. Couple that with many businesses not be located in city-center, it makes it almost necessary to rent a car when you get to the destination to then reach the final destination.
The deeper problem here is that most buildings in the US that have been built during the automobile era are built with a density that is not suitable for mass transit. That's probably not fixable without replacing the majority of the buildings.

Some businesses will choose to locate themselves near mass transit if good mass transit is available. Once there's high speed intercity rail service in the downtown center of a city, some businesses may be more inclined to locate themselves there, if there is also good transportation infrastructure to get the local employees into the downtown office.

It would be good to at least have enough rail infrastructure and to shift people's attitudes to the point where new construction will typically not happen in ways that are incompatible with mass transit.
 
I got thinking a few hours ago about what tracks might bring high speed trains into Penn Station in New York City. I'd sort of been assuming for months that the tunnels under the river shared with NJT could be used for high speed trains going towards Chicago and DC, and the Empire Connection could be used for high speed trains going towards Albany/Montreal, Springfield, Hartford, Boston, and Rhode Island, but a few hours ago I realized that taking capacity from NJT for the high speed trains is not really an ideal plan.

Is there enough space that the Empire Connection could be upgraded to double track, and all the new high speed trains (including those to Chicago and DC) run along it?
 
Amtrak has reasonably frequent service along the NEC, but I'm wondering how many passengers the New London train station serves every day, vs the number of passengers the typical airport serves each day. It wouldn't surprise me if the airport brings the car rental companies a lot more business all in one place. When I lived in Waterford, we always had to travel via some sort of automobile or van to either Hartford or to T F Green Airport to catch an airplane (or maybe there was token commercial service at Groton on a few occasions, but I don't remember ever flying into or out of the Groton airport).
In fiscal 2007 New London saw 161,658 Amtrak passengers. Contrast that with New Haven which saw 640,281 passengers. Note that Amtrak counts each boarding and each detraining, so in theory that number can be cut in half, since most people do take round trips.

Also, don't forget that Shore Line East also serves New London, so that does put additionaly pax through that station. However most are commuters and therefore not looking to rent cars.
 
Something like this would be awesome and could take away (or at least lessen) one of the biggest downsides of long-distance train travel in the US - time. The best way to make it happen I think would be to start on one of the routes (probably LA to LV, but maybe east coast) and see how it does. If it does as well as I think it probably would, then expand from there.
I find one of the more enduring aspects of rail travel is a sense of going somewhere and being able to enjoy the scenery. I don't mind the 90 mile per hour pre amtrak speeds, but recently we took the Acela for the first time and in the few places where the train really got going we found viewing things to be very blurry. If a train is going to got as fast as a plane you may as well fly. Besides I find a slight bit of a safety factor even at 79 miles and hour, compared to a plane falling out of the sky or a train doing 300 miles an hour. Personally I think its too fast.

Sorry I see I made a similar post earlier and didn't remember it..
 
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In fiscal 2007 New London saw 161,658 Amtrak passengers. Contrast that with New Haven which saw 640,281 passengers. Note that Amtrak counts each boarding and each detraining, so in theory that number can be cut in half, since most people do take round trips.
Also, don't forget that Shore Line East also serves New London, so that does put additionaly pax through that station. However most are commuters and therefore not looking to rent cars.
The statistics here indicate that Bradley in Hartford is the 56th busiest airport, at 3.2 million enplanements, and T F Green is the 62nd busiest airport, at nearly 2.5 million enplanements.

Does the Tyler, TX airport, at ranking 234 with about 78,482 enplanements a day, have 24 hour car rental? The looks like the largest airport in the 48 states with lower ridership than the New London, CT train station (if we ignore Shore Line East trips).
 
I'm starting to think that the right design for 220 MPH and faster trainsets for the US may be an EMU set with the lead car being cab/baggage, and the last car being cab/coach, with the trainset normally being operated with the baggage car in front to act as a buffer in the event of a collision, and the cab controls at the back being there just in case they're needed on rare occasions (and depending on how crashworthiness is handled, possibly with the train operating at either lower maximum speeds or with no passengers in the cab/coach car when the cab/coach car is leading).
 
DRIVING IS NOT A RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It is a priviledge granted to you by the state and the state can remove that priviledge anytime it wishes (e.g. drunk driving and license revocation)!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And why can't "We the People" have ..........

Aloha
 
Generally a high speed train set will be an EMU because adhesion goes down with speed. There is usually a control cab on both ends because the trains normally simply reverse instead of turn around. Some Japanese trainsets have a mechancal devise that rotates the seats in the entire car so that a crew member does not have to walk through rotating them individually. Since anything running over 110 mph will be on dedicated grade separated right of way, crashworthiness is a relatively small issue. Regardless, the whole crash thing is rediculously blown out of proportion. Seats up to right behind the operators cab is not a problem.
 
But the traditional TGV trainsets are not EMU.

And I thought the current practice on the Acela was normally to turn the trainset around via a loop.

Are there major American (or Canadian) cites where we're likely to want to have high speed routes terminate that don't already have loops or wyes? Isn't there a tendancy to want to move trainsets to yards for cleaning between runs anyway?

The tracks into downtown San Francisco are shared with freight, and I think in Boston we're likely to find that the Fairmount Line is both a logical place to run high speed trains (assuming the rail tunnel under the I-93 tunnel gets built) and the logical place to run container freight from Conley Terminal where it's unloaded from ships to various railroad destinations.
 
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Our government is not in the financial position to finance anything like this, Joel. We can't even afford the war our *****-in-office is putting us through. Upgrading Amtrak funding is easy, and should be done. But frankly, before they spend trillions on a system like you suggest, they need to get a positive cash flow.
And a good reason to build it in the first place. I imagine that a cross-country network of 200mph+ HSR would cost more than the moon landings (even adjusting for inflation). For what? Certainly not the environment. The resource expenditure to create the infrastructure would probably produce so much CO2 that you'd have a net increase in emissions for quite some time.

But if you want to compare the US to France, you also have to remember that the US population is roughly 4.7 times the population of France, so if we need 4.7 times as many miles of track, that shouldn't discourage us at all. I do think we may want to end up with nearly twice as much high speed track per capita as the French, but I don't think that's impossible.
Miles of track per capita? That's a silly metric if I've ever seen one. A nationwide HSR network in Canada would require a similar amount of track (probably within a factor of 2 or 3) to one in the US. The track miles per capita metric suggests Canada would need only 10% or so of the US track mileage.

France, with 291 people mi^-2 and a natural hub (Paris), is a much more sensible location for a nationwide HSR network than the US (80 people/mi^2). Now if you take the parts of the US with a population density similar to that of France, you get the Mid-Atlantic, CA, etc. A HSR network in these places is a reasonable goal.

It's not clear how you power automobiles or airplanes from a nuclear reactor (or a wind farm or a coal plant).
It's clear to me, at east for cars: batteries. There are other potential energy storage mechanisms, including hydrogen.

Then there's the Convair X-6.
 
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