CZ Train Truck Collision In Nevada (2011)

[Anderson]

Serious question: Is there any chance we could get a law forcibly cutting speed limits at crossings and/or making it a serious misdemeanor (the class varies by state) to run through a gate that is down?

Edit: Or simply say that when a gate is down, that track is entirely RR property and you become a trespasser if you enter...

 

[Rider]

Moderator: Thanks for editing my sarcastic remarks directed at the poster who referred to the possibility of a "truck convoy". Originally they were even stronger, and now I can't remember exactly what I said - but I know at the time I was amazed at the OP's post and reacted a bit too quickly to it.

I do not like personal attacks, but only in retrospect regretted one of my comments. I guess this is another reason why I don't mind not being a member - you guys keep me honest by screening my remarks.

And thanks for posting practically all of my comments intact. I do try to be constructive and helpful to new train riders, which of course we all were at some time.

Now if you'd just fix my spelling and grammar now and then!

 

[Bierboy]

Trucking company had multiple violations...

 

[The Chief]

The article at this link: http://www.wtop.com/...209&sid=2436527 says six are dead and that

...28 people were unaccounted for, but that the figure was "spongy" because some passengers may have gotten off the train before the crash or walked away from the scene without checking with officials.

I don't like thinking this way, but I can't help but wonder if Fox's hate of Amtrak has influenced their death toll estimate upwards.

Exactly my first thought too, I hope that's not the case, even for Fox.

That link ^ is to an Associated Press story, not FOX News.

By SCOTT SONNER
Associated Press
AP writers Martin Griffith in Reno and Amanda Kwan in Phoenix contributed to this report.
AP is comprised of member newspapers and RTV stations.

AFIK the largest media company represented on site so far is LA Times.

The rest of the bigs have been getting stories/reports from local Nevada newspapers, radio, and TV, and some citizen videos.

Coverage looks fair and balanced.

The spongy quote is attributed to NTSB's Earl Weener, on site.

Yes. I read the article before I posted the link to it.

I know I was not as clear as I could have been, as I said 'death toll' and not 'unaccounted for', so I'll point out the Fox article I was referring to. It is the link in post #128 of this thread.

The article is here: http://nation.foxnews.com/amtrak/2011/06/25/5-dead-amtrak-train-crash

The Fox article says 45 people remain unaccounted for, not 28 like the AP article.

And btw, you say that coverage looks 'fair and balanced.' Hmmm... where have I heard that expression before?

That link posted is from a web page hosted by FOX. The reporting, however, which includes the "45 remained unaccounted for, federal officials said" statement, is provided by the San Francisco Chronicle, not FOX.

Just look for identifiers of the source organization(s) on the web pages, and one can determine the agency/station/paper, etc., that is reporting. In this case it's

Jaxon Van Derbeken, Kevin Fagan,Will Kane, San Francisco Chronicle

and they were quoting an official(s) who was federal.

Hope this helps ID news sources. And the "fair and balanced" line was intentional. Thanks for noticing!

 

[dlagrua]

You know its very strange. Work for the airlines or for Amtrak and they have strict requiements for engineers, pilots and even conduct random drug testing. Work for a trucking company and they don't care who you are, what you have done, what your driving (and police)record is like and so forth. The move these days by the trucking industry is to hire the cheapest labor possible. This accident might not prove a money saver for the company who hired the driver. The damage and deaths are their responsibility alone for putting this incompetant driver behind the wheel of their truck. If in fact there was a 360' skid mark on the road as reported, the truck had to be moving at a high rate of speed, perhaps 80 mph or more.

 

[amtrakwolverine]

You know its very strange. Work for the airlines or for Amtrak and they have strict requiements for engineers, pilots and even conduct random drug testing. Work for a trucking company and they don't care who you are, what you have done, what your driving (and police)record is like and so forth. The move these days by the trucking industry is to hire the cheapest labor possible. This accident might not prove a money saver for the company who hired the driver. The damage and deaths are their responsibility alone for putting this incompetant driver behind the wheel of their truck. If in fact there was a 360' skid mark on the road as reported, the truck had to be moving at a high rate of speed, perhaps 80 mph or more.

The companys don't care. so people died that's business in there eyes. The trucking company will just pack up and move somewhere else and change there name to avoid lawsuits etc.

 

[njulian]

It was said in an earlier post that people of the bottom were pretty much doomed. Can someone explain this to me? I would have thought the bottom level, close to the doors, would have had an easier escape route, while those on the top would have had to deal with taking out the windows ( I don't even know if I could figure that out quickly) and jumping (which looks like a pretty darn big fall).

 

[The Davy Crockett]

The article at this link: http://www.wtop.com/...209&sid=2436527 says six are dead and that

...28 people were unaccounted for, but that the figure was "spongy" because some passengers may have gotten off the train before the crash or walked away from the scene without checking with officials.

I don't like thinking this way, but I can't help but wonder if Fox's hate of Amtrak has influenced their death toll estimate upwards.

Exactly my first thought too, I hope that's not the case, even for Fox.

That link ^ is to an Associated Press story, not FOX News.

By SCOTT SONNER
Associated Press
AP writers Martin Griffith in Reno and Amanda Kwan in Phoenix contributed to this report.
AP is comprised of member newspapers and RTV stations.

AFIK the largest media company represented on site so far is LA Times.

The rest of the bigs have been getting stories/reports from local Nevada newspapers, radio, and TV, and some citizen videos.

Coverage looks fair and balanced.

The spongy quote is attributed to NTSB's Earl Weener, on site.

Yes. I read the article before I posted the link to it.

I know I was not as clear as I could have been, as I said 'death toll' and not 'unaccounted for', so I'll point out the Fox article I was referring to. It is the link in post #128 of this thread.

The article is here: http://nation.foxnews.com/amtrak/2011/06/25/5-dead-amtrak-train-crash

The Fox article says 45 people remain unaccounted for, not 28 like the AP article.

And btw, you say that coverage looks 'fair and balanced.' Hmmm... where have I heard that expression before?

That link posted is from a web page hosted by FOX. The reporting, however, which includes the "45 remained unaccounted for, federal officials said" statement, is provided by the San Francisco Chronicle, not FOX.

Just look for identifiers of the source organization(s) on the web pages, and one can determine the agency/station/paper, etc., that is reporting. In this case it's

Jaxon Van Derbeken, Kevin Fagan,Will Kane, San Francisco Chronicle

and they were quoting an official(s) who was federal.

Hope this helps ID news sources. And the "fair and balanced" line was intentional. Thanks for noticing!

Oh, so you do have an axe to grind. I hoped that you were not stooping to the level I was concerned that Fox might have stooped to by using an accident in which innocent lives were lost to further your own political agenda. But now I understand. How sad.

 

[ThayerATM]

The article at this link: http://www.wtop.com/...209&sid=2436527 says six are dead and that

...28 people were unaccounted for, but that the figure was "spongy" because some passengers may have gotten off the train before the crash or walked away from the scene without checking with officials.

I don't like thinking this way, but I can't help but wonder if Fox's hate of Amtrak has influenced their death toll estimate upwards.

Exactly my first thought too, I hope that's not the case, even for Fox.

That link ^ is to an Associated Press story, not FOX News.

By SCOTT SONNER
Associated Press
AP writers Martin Griffith in Reno and Amanda Kwan in Phoenix contributed to this report.
AP is comprised of member newspapers and RTV stations.

AFIK the largest media company represented on site so far is LA Times.

The rest of the bigs have been getting stories/reports from local Nevada newspapers, radio, and TV, and some citizen videos.

Coverage looks fair and balanced.

The spongy quote is attributed to NTSB's Earl Weener, on site.

Yes. I read the article before I posted the link to it.

I know I was not as clear as I could have been, as I said 'death toll' and not 'unaccounted for', so I'll point out the Fox article I was referring to. It is the link in post #128 of this thread.

The article is here: http://nation.foxnews.com/amtrak/2011/06/25/5-dead-amtrak-train-crash

The Fox article says 45 people remain unaccounted for, not 28 like the AP article.

And btw, you say that coverage looks 'fair and balanced.' Hmmm... where have I heard that expression before?

That link posted is from a web page hosted by FOX. The reporting, however, which includes the "45 remained unaccounted for, federal officials said" statement, is provided by the San Francisco Chronicle, not FOX.

Just look for identifiers of the source organization(s) on the web pages, and one can determine the agency/station/paper, etc., that is reporting. In this case it's

Jaxon Van Derbeken, Kevin Fagan,Will Kane, San Francisco Chronicle

and they were quoting an official(s) who was federal.

Hope this helps ID news sources. And the "fair and balanced" line was intentional. Thanks for noticing!

:hi:

This forum isn't a debate about who's the best network, or who's the best at saying they're "Fair And Balanced."

In my opinion, this forum is about finding out exactly what happened, and the facts surrounding the aftermath.

If it takes up to a year to find out what the facts actually are, and what actually happened, then it just has to be that long. Meanwhile, what all the networks are trying to do is get a "scoop," and present their videos or articles, as the news comes in to their desks, and fill the airwaves, newspapers, and websites.

Fox isn't any more accurate than CBS, or NBC, or ABC, or CNN.

The "facts" will slowly become clear, then all the networks can report what really happened. Where will we be able to read the final follow-up on this story after all the dust has settled?

 

[AmtrakBlue]

It was said in an earlier post that people of the bottom were pretty much doomed. Can someone explain this to me? I would have thought the bottom level, close to the doors, would have had an easier escape route, while those on the top would have had to deal with taking out the windows ( I don't even know if I could figure that out quickly) and jumping (which looks like a pretty darn big fall).

I think they meant the car that was hit since the truck hit the bottom and that's where the fire ball probably originated from. The people on the top would presumably have the option to exit to another car before going down the stairs to the door.

I have not ridden on a Superliner but have been reading up on things (mostly here at AU) because I'm taking the CL and the CZ in November ... and I still can't wait for that trip.

 

[GAT]

10:40 a.m. update: Amtrak trains in both directions will detour through Winnemucca and Portola today ((Saturday)) to avoid the scene of a fatal crash on Friday near Lovelock.

Amtrak spokesman Steve Kulm said westbound the Amtrak train that left Chicago on Thursday will detour off the regular Union Pacific line at Winnemucca and go through Portola before rejoining the regular line again in Roseville.

Customers bound for Reno, Truckee or Colfax will get rides to their destinations from Portola, Kulm said.

The eastbound train leaving Emeryville near San Francisco today will take the same route and the Reno, Truckee and Colfax customers will be transported from Portola, he said.

Is this bypass the Feather River Canyon route? If so, I believe that's a pretty scenic run. My friend is taking #6 tomorrow (Monday).

By the way, whay will the loss of a transdorm and at least one sleeper car do to Amtrak's overall running capacity? Will there be a domino effect in lost service?

 

[AmtrakBlue]

By the way, whay will the loss of a transdorm and at least one sleeper car do to Amtrak's overall running capacity? Will there be a domino effect in lost service?

It was a transdorm and a coach, not a sleeper.

 

[GAT]

By the way, whay will the loss of a transdorm and at least one sleeper car do to Amtrak's overall running capacity? Will there be a domino effect in lost service?

It was a transdorm and a coach, not a sleeper.

My bad. I was thinking the sleepers were directly behind rhe transdorm, but not so on the CZ? I seem to remember reading that somewhere. Which raises the question.....Why are the sleepers at the back of the train on the CZ?

 

[Dan O]

You know its very strange. Work for the airlines or for Amtrak and they have strict requiements for engineers, pilots and even conduct random drug testing. Work for a trucking company and they don't care who you are, what you have done, what your driving (and police)record is like and so forth. The move these days by the trucking industry is to hire the cheapest labor possible. This accident might not prove a money saver for the company who hired the driver. The damage and deaths are their responsibility alone for putting this incompetant driver behind the wheel of their truck. If in fact there was a 360' skid mark on the road as reported, the truck had to be moving at a high rate of speed, perhaps 80 mph or more.

I don't think tickets/violations by truck drivers are uncommon. First, they drive a ton of miles so are more apt to do something work ticketing. Second, they are responsible for a lot more things on their vehicle that could end up being a ticket if they aren't up to par. When I worked for an insurance company many years ago we never saw a truck driver with a "clean" record. Some were probably bad drivers but most were probably not.

If the driver was distracted, be it texting, tuning the radio, etc, that does not mean he was "incompetent." If distraction was a factor it doesn't change it from being a very terrible accident. All who drive are distracted to some degree at times.

Dano

 

[George Harris]

I won't attempt to try to pull in everybody's quotes that I am addressing.

Getting all wound up about FOX, et al as sources is silly. Particularly since someone said that Fox was quoting the San Francisco Chronicle. I can hardly imagine two major sources of news being further apart on the political spectrum.

Given the condition of the two most damaged cars and the suddenness of the collision, either 28 or 45 deaths would be reasonable preliminary estimates. It appears now that the condition is "unaccounted for" and the number is 28, that approximating deaths somewhere well above 6 and likely approaching the 28 unaccounted for. Given that all tickets sold now have names and any passenger could reasonably be expected to produce identification, it should only be a matter of days that no-shows and those not counted when they got off the train can be located and their continued existence confirmed. At that point, a more realistic estimate of the number of dead becomes possible and then it becomes a matter of attempting to identfy the remains. Any further guessing between now and that time is pointless.

When I said the people in the lower level of the car initially struck were almost certainly lost, it is because of the almost instantaneous fireball, and the near certainty that the exit door would be blocked by the truck.

If you read the nature of the violations cited for the trucking company, for the most part they were not really that significant. You are talking high milage vehicles and high milage drivers, so there is a lot of exposure to being cited.

To those that want to use this thread to air their political positions, and I think you know who you are, put a sock in it.

 

[RPE]

Here is some good news. A new report saying they are down to 5 unaccounted for. Hope they find them OK as well.

SPARKS, Nev. (AP) -- An Amtrak official says there are now five passengers unaccounted for after a fiery crash between a semi-truck and train that killed at least six people and injured about 20 others at a crossing in the Nevada desert. Amtrak spokeswoman Vernae Graham tells The Associated Press that the five people who were on the train's manifest of more than 200 remained unaccounted for as of Sunday night. More than two dozen people were being sought a day earlier.

 

[jis]

According to postings on the Western Board on Trainorders 5(22) minus the destroyed cars and one damaged car, was on its way to EMY passing Truckee at around 1:30pm today. Not clear exactly where those three cars are located at present. The train was brought to Sparks before it headed out to EMY.

5(24) is running via Donner expected into EMY between 1:30 and 3am tonight. 5(24) has Phase III P42 #145 in the lead.

 

[The Journalist]

Both Zephyrs came though Reno today, though 5 was 9 hours late. That was a brief detouring...

 

[DET63]

George Harris' post #121 is probably the most comprehensive analysis of the situation based on the knowledge available at the present time.

As for the company, "Truck company in Nevada train crash had citations":

SPARKS, Nev. (AP) — Federal records reviewed by the Associated Press show a spotty record for a Nevada trucking company under scrutiny for a deadly crash with an Amtrak train.
Nevada authorities have previously cited John Davis Trucking Co., of Battle Mountain, Nev., for crashes, unsafe driving and operating a truck with tires so bald the vehicle had to be taken off the road.

...

National Transportation Safety Board member Earl Weener told reporters Sunday night that it was difficult to say whether the company's record was significant or atypical.

 

[DET63]

Train conductor, formerly of Concord, remembered for her fierce love

Laurette Lee, 68, of South Lake Tahoe, is shown in a family photo given to the Contra Costa Times on Saturday, June 25,

2011. Lee, an Amtrak conductor, was killed on June 24 after a truck struck an Emeryville-bound train she was driving. The truck

driver and at least two other people were killed, and about 20 were injured. Her nephew Ben Rankin is also an Amtrak

conductor. (Photo courtesy of Rankin family)

​

 

[Guest]

Does anyone know if Laurette Lee was just unlucky enough to be in that train car when struck, or was Laurette killed while attempting to give aid and assistance?

 

[GaSteve]

Does anyone know if Laurette Lee was just unlucky enough to be in that train car when struck, or was Laurette killed while attempting to give aid and assistance?

As previously noted, she was probably in the lower level of the transition dorm doing her duties and that car took the brunt of the impact.

 

[jis]

From the San Francisco Chronicle:

A spokesman said one crew member, conductor Laurette Lee, had died and that five passengers were missing. The Washoe County Medical Examiner said it had six unidentified bodies, suggesting that just one person remains unaccounted for. The agency is handling the autopsies for smaller Churchill County.

See the whole article here.

Also in the same article:

A colleague of d'Alessandro, who requested anonymity because Amtrak has forbidden employees from talking to the press, said d'Allesandro had been a hero. Though his arm was mangled in the collision, the co-worker said, he climbed under at least one of the two double-decker passenger cars that were crippled to close necessary valves - and to uncouple it to prevent the fire from spreading toward the engine.
D'Allessandro then walked the train, making sure people were off before accepting help, his colleague said.

One of d'Alessandro's fingers, though, was nearly torn off, said his niece, Michelle Childs of Elk Grove (Sacramento County). She said doctors were able to save the finger, and her uncle had surgery on his arm on Saturday. He expects to be released from the hospital in Reno and on his way home today.

"He was right in the same area where the conductor was that got killed. He's absolutely, totally lucky," Childs said. "He's going to make it, but it's going to be a long recovery."

 

[fillyjonk]

It was said in an earlier post that people of the bottom were pretty much doomed. Can someone explain this to me? I would have thought the bottom level, close to the doors, would have had an easier escape route, while those on the top would have had to deal with taking out the windows ( I don't even know if I could figure that out quickly) and jumping (which looks like a pretty darn big fall).

I think they meant the car that was hit since the truck hit the bottom and that's where the fire ball probably originated from. The people on the top would presumably have the option to exit to another car before going down the stairs to the door.

I have not ridden on a Superliner but have been reading up on things (mostly here at AU) because I'm taking the CL and the CZ in November ... and I still can't wait for that trip.

Also, I'm guessing in a really bad crash, the safest thing to do is to get out of the car and into an undamaged car AS FAST AS POSSIBLE. IIRC, on Superliners, the links between the cars are topside- in the upstairs. It would be a lot harder to get upstairs and into a "safer" car if you were on the lower level. And I suspect in a fire situation, opening a door or window (allowing a blast of oxygen into the car right where you were) would likely make things even worse.

This accident is scary and sad. My prayers are definitely with the families who lost people who were killed in the crash - especially the families who know their loved one is missing but haven't heard "officially" yet. Fire is one of the things that scares me THE MOST and I am too good at imagining what the situation would be like.

I hope if the trucking company is found responsible some punishment is levied. I have seen too many cases around where I live of trucking companies, bus companies, etc. hiring unqualified/unsafe drivers, and then having horrible accidents where people were killed (A group of Vietnamese Christian pilgrims on a bus trip, a truck driver who crashed and killed several other drivers...)

 

[The Chief]

I won't attempt to try to pull in everybody's quotes that I am addressing.

Getting all wound up about FOX, et al as sources is silly. Particularly since someone said that Fox was quoting the San Francisco Chronicle. I can hardly imagine two major sources of news being further apart on the political spectrum.

To those that want to use this thread to air their political positions, and I think you know who you are, put a sock in it.

There's been nothing political in my posts on this thread.

Among other facts, I clarified and explained news sources, agencies, etc.

Again, a post clarifying news-gathering processes and sources is not political.

As someone who worked many years in newspapers and TV, and worked for three different railroads, I have an interest in both industries -- and a background and foundation in the knowledge of how each business operates.

When noted about the political spectrum, re: the gap between FOX News and the SF Chronicle, I agree. The two are a bit apart, yet will share stories, as both are members of the AP. Think of BNSF detouring over UP tracks. While those two hosts treat Amtrak quite differently, they still cooperate on exchanging track rights when needed.

Please re-read my posts on this thread; they're neither "political," nor promoting FOX or any other medium. Hope this helps.