Ryan
Court Jester
I haven't seen any of these pictures with skid marks?
CZ Train Truck Collision In Nevada (2011)
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Nor I, was reading reports, but can't find the dang report now. Possible retract.
EDIT: From one of the online versions of a FOX report.
Investigators at the scene about 70 miles east of Reno found skid marks at the railroad crossing on U.S. 95, indicating the driver tried to stop his semitrailer before Friday’s crash, Nevada Highway Patrol Trooper Dan Lopez said.
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amtrakwolverine
Engineer
From the LA times http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-naw-amtrak-truck-crash-20110625,1,3448100.story
Could have been a medical problem or the driver was over tired and fell asleep at the wheel.So far it does not appear to be intentional or a act or terror.
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Cristobal
Lead Service Attendant
Every time that I see one of these grade crossing accidents I can't help but think that at least some of them may have been caused by people misjudging the speed of an Amtrak train because they are so used to seeing a much slower (and longer) freight train. Was that the case here? We may never know...
Thoughts and prayers to all those affected by this tragic event.
Thoughts and prayers to all those affected by this tragic event.
Devil's Advocate
⠀⠀⠀
Doesn't sound intentional to me either.
Last second strokes and heart attacks that result in this kind of inescapable carnage are relatively rare, but wrecks caused by irresponsible folks driving under the influence of drugs or dozing off at the wheel or wasting their mental alertness on phone calls and text messages are extremely common.
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Hopefully SOMEONE??? Will Issue an Official Announcement with True Details SOON, Speculation and Misinformation is Rampant and for Sure Amtrak Isn't Going to Tell us Anything Useful! :help:
They Don't Have to Release any Names till Next of Kin have been Notified etc. (we Know the Conductor, her Picture has Even Been Shown on trainorders ) but We Shouldn't have to Depend on the Internet to Get Valid and Invalid Information on this Tragedy! :wacko: Of Course the Cause/Contributing Factors etc. will Take A Long Time to Be Known, the Government Moves Very Slowly as We Know, but in the Meantime Please Put Out a Statement with the KNOWN Facts! :help:
They Don't Have to Release any Names till Next of Kin have been Notified etc. (we Know the Conductor, her Picture has Even Been Shown on trainorders
) but We Shouldn't have to Depend on the Internet to Get Valid and Invalid Information on this Tragedy! :wacko: Of Course the Cause/Contributing Factors etc. will Take A Long Time to Be Known, the Government Moves Very Slowly as We Know, but in the Meantime Please Put Out a Statement with the KNOWN Facts! :help:
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You have a point, but this would seem to be a pretty high-speed stretch of rail and even freights would be making 59mph or better. The recording on the locomotive will tell how fast Amtrak was going.Every time that I see one of these grade crossing accidents I can't help but think that at least some of them may have been caused by people misjudging the speed of an Amtrak train because they are so used to seeing a much slower (and longer) freight train. Was that the case here? We may never know...
Thoughts and prayers to all those affected by this tragic event.
And, I'll bet that driver had crossed it many times before. Sadly, he won't cross here again.
Grannie_Roz
Train Attendant
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Looks like both gates are still there. It is possible that if the truck driver slammed on his brakes at the last second, he swerved to the left in a frantic attempt to miss the train coming from his right and the point of impact was on the left hand side of the road. The photos and videos at the Reno Gazette Journal website, which are quite extensive, indicate that is where the point of impact was. Then when the truck cab and first gravel bed slammed into the train, they got pushed to the left side of the intersection (from the truck drivers side) and thus missed hitting the gate.
The truck must have been going at a pretty good clip. There is a quote in the RGJ from a local tow truck operator is that they could not find the engine block or hood from the truck and thinks they are embedded in the train car. How fast does a truck have to be going to punch through the side of a Superliner likely moving at 70 itself?!? The damaged Superliners have been sealed off for the investigation, so that is why there is uncertainty as to where all the trucks parts ended up. From the photos, there is almost nothing recognizable left as a truck cab except for two axles with tires and scattered pieces. The force of the impact may have rammed the diesel fuel tanks on the truck into the train car and thus they were the source of the fireball given the sheer energy of the collision.
The video camera on the train should confirm whether the gates were down, lights were flashing, and how long before the collision the gates went down. The video may also provide information about the force of the impact from how much it jumped in the lead engine. If the truck was of fairly recent vintage, there could be recorded information in the engine electronics box, but that could well have been destroyed in the collision and subsequent fire.
The picture of the crossing gate makes it clear that this was not a minor grade crossing with only a couple of cross-bucks and flashing lights. There were gates and overhead red flashing lights. Hard to miss. Lots of questions the NTSB and police will have to determine as what was going on with the truck driver that may be impossible to fully answer.
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The Davy Crockett
Engineer
I've witnessed diesel in the tanks on an Amtrak engine quite literally explode - just like a bomb going off - upon collision impact. There was a huge fireball and it caused the lead car of the MARC train it hit, to burn until there was almost nothing left. So while maybe not as volatile as gasoline, it could have easily ignited.
Ryan
Court Jester
Thanks, I hadn't seen the aerial set of pictures.
Of course, who's to say that they weren't there beforehand.
I've also seen nothing to suggest any reason to believe accident/medical/intentional/etc, either.
I think it's going to be a long time (if ever) before we know what the full story is.
Of course, who's to say that they weren't there beforehand.
I've also seen nothing to suggest any reason to believe accident/medical/intentional/etc, either.
I think it's going to be a long time (if ever) before we know what the full story is.
Ryan
Court Jester
Yep, the Capitol Limited/MARC collision and resulting fire was one of the first things that I thought of.
Hard to tell from the photos if those are new or old skid marks. Or a mix of several new ones and some old ones.
Aloha
The last two post had linked photos that were the best yet. But the captions bother me. about half of them state the train hit the truck and half say the truck hit the train. Somehow one would think the report would be consistent within a report.
The last two post had linked photos that were the best yet. But the captions bother me. about half of them state the train hit the truck and half say the truck hit the train. Somehow one would think the report would be consistent within a report.
The Davy Crockett
Engineer
That's exactly what I'm talking about. I find the images from this wreck disturbingly familiar.
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The latest update from the Reno Gazette Journal (obviously local time):Hopefully SOMEONE??? Will Issue an Official Announcement with True Details SOON, Speculation and Misinformation is Rampant and for Sure Amtrak Isn't Going to Tell us Anything Useful! :help:
They Don't Have to Release any Names till Next of Kin have been Notified etc. (we Know the Conductor, her Picture has Even Been Shown on trainorders
"1:55 p.m. update: There are more bodies in the train.
Dan Lopez, spokesman for the Nevada Highway Patrol, said officials have been trying to get into the burnt cars to pull the bodies out, but they’ve been hindered by structural instability.
He said authorities doesn’t know how many bodies are still in the passenger cars, and won’t know until they get access."
So that is why still no official final count of the number of dead. This was a very bad accident followed by an intense fire. The on-scene investigation and coroner's work could take some time.
R
Rider
Guest
Another thought on the sudden ignition and very rapid spread of the fire:
From the photos (smoke) it looks as there is a strong wind - say, 20 mph - blowing from West to East. That coupled with the fact that the train was (at first) heading into the wind at say 60 mph (slowing rapidly after impact, true) could have given apparent wind speed of up to 80 mph for a few seconds, fanning the flames intensely. Fuel + heat + oxygen = combustion. In this instance, large amounts of each -
From the photos (smoke) it looks as there is a strong wind - say, 20 mph - blowing from West to East. That coupled with the fact that the train was (at first) heading into the wind at say 60 mph (slowing rapidly after impact, true) could have given apparent wind speed of up to 80 mph for a few seconds, fanning the flames intensely. Fuel + heat + oxygen = combustion. In this instance, large amounts of each -
I noticed that too. I would be reluctant to consider a caption to a photo to be a reliable source of information about anything.
George Harris
Engineer
So far there seems to be some good analysis here, plus a good exposition of ignorance in some area.
Here is what I get out of what I see in the pictures and the map plus some things pulled out of what others have said here. There is quite a bit here that comes out of what people know from their own interests and professions that help in understanding what happened.
Location on the railroad: About milepost 318.6. Somebody should be able to give that more exactly since it can be read off the housing at the road crossing. It appears from Google Maps to be about 4/10 mile west of the west end of Ocala siding, which is at milepost 319.0. From the 2005 ETT, the speed limit here is 79P/70F. Given the terrain, all trains not using the siding, freight and passenger should be going fairly fast. The speed in the siding is shown as being 20 mph, so a train entering or leaving the siding would be going fairly slowbut this is CTC territory, so there is no stop to throw the switch involved.
Location on the highway: South of the crossing the highway is more or less parallel to the railroad, but not close, probably about 1/4 mile east of the railroad. Before the crossing, there is a large radius curve to the left and the crossing is just north of the end of the curve.
First, this is a fairly low angle crossing, somewhere around 35 to 45 degrees. The truck was going northbound on US95, which in this area means pretty well due north after running parallel to the railroad. The train was going westbound (obviously), which in this area means southwest. Therefore, they were near facing each other. In fact, given the openess of the country, the headlight of the train should have been in sight of the truck before he entered the curve that is in advance of the crossing.
This leaves us with two scenarios: One, that the truck driver say the train and tried to beat it. That would seem irrational, to say the least, as the time of observation that he would have had would tell him that the train was moving fast. Two, and somewhat more reasonable to consider that the truck driver was unaware until he saw the headlight, or, maybe heard the horn. Whether he was distracted or had headphones on a loud engine, who knows. Anything said in this area is completely speculation, and useless at this time. Suffice to say, when he did become aware, he swerved to the left. That would be the natural reaction when perceiving a threat from the left. He would probably have made the situation better by swerving right, but that would be an unnatural reaction, and there was no time at all for thought.
Second: With the crossing angle, at best the angle of impact would be somewhere in the 45 degree to 60 degree range. That would give a closing speed of around 110 mph or greater.
Third: Given the closing speed, the front part of the cab including engine, and probably fuel tanks, would almost certainly have ended up inside the car they hit. It would not be surprising to find that some parts of the front of the truck went clear through the car.
Fourth: Given this impact, the total fuel in the truck ended up inside and splashed underneath the car. I would go with inside, as there is no evidence in the pictures I have seen of fuel on the roadbed in the vicinity of the crossing, which would be the case if any significant quantity went under the car. Likewise, there is no evidence of fire inside or under the train beyond this one car.
Fifth: The smoke and flames say diesel fuel fire plus combustion of diesel fuel soaked car furnishings and contents. Someone else probably could give a better quantity, but I would say somewhere between 50 and 200 gallons of diesel fuel were involved. The fire has nothing to do with the relative flamability of the vehicle or contents. Some of what we see in the pictures is evidence of melted metal. For the passengers and crew to do anything about this fire other that put as much distance as they could between the fire and themselves would be an act of stupidity. In my opinion, the presence or absence of fire extinguishers, a fire fighting plan, or anything else on the train, including the materials in the car and an on-board fire supression system is completely irrelevant to the situation.
Sixth: The large hole in the side of the car behind the car on fire was caused by the first trailer coming around and slamming up against the car.
Seventh: The train did not derail because the point of impact was between the trucks. If one of the wheelsets of the train had been hit by the truck a derailment would have been a near certainty.
I have not looked much yet today for further information on injuries / deaths, but being on the upper level of the car hit by the trailer and on the side the trailer hit would almost certain result in serious injury or death. Like wise, being on the lower level of the car hit by the front end of the truck would be nearly a death sentence. Being on the upper level would not be so good, either.
Seeing pictures taken shortly after the accident, the engines were not detached immediately. That apparently came quite a bit later.
Here is what I get out of what I see in the pictures and the map plus some things pulled out of what others have said here. There is quite a bit here that comes out of what people know from their own interests and professions that help in understanding what happened.
Location on the railroad: About milepost 318.6. Somebody should be able to give that more exactly since it can be read off the housing at the road crossing. It appears from Google Maps to be about 4/10 mile west of the west end of Ocala siding, which is at milepost 319.0. From the 2005 ETT, the speed limit here is 79P/70F. Given the terrain, all trains not using the siding, freight and passenger should be going fairly fast. The speed in the siding is shown as being 20 mph, so a train entering or leaving the siding would be going fairly slowbut this is CTC territory, so there is no stop to throw the switch involved.
Location on the highway: South of the crossing the highway is more or less parallel to the railroad, but not close, probably about 1/4 mile east of the railroad. Before the crossing, there is a large radius curve to the left and the crossing is just north of the end of the curve.
First, this is a fairly low angle crossing, somewhere around 35 to 45 degrees. The truck was going northbound on US95, which in this area means pretty well due north after running parallel to the railroad. The train was going westbound (obviously), which in this area means southwest. Therefore, they were near facing each other. In fact, given the openess of the country, the headlight of the train should have been in sight of the truck before he entered the curve that is in advance of the crossing.
This leaves us with two scenarios: One, that the truck driver say the train and tried to beat it. That would seem irrational, to say the least, as the time of observation that he would have had would tell him that the train was moving fast. Two, and somewhat more reasonable to consider that the truck driver was unaware until he saw the headlight, or, maybe heard the horn. Whether he was distracted or had headphones on a loud engine, who knows. Anything said in this area is completely speculation, and useless at this time. Suffice to say, when he did become aware, he swerved to the left. That would be the natural reaction when perceiving a threat from the left. He would probably have made the situation better by swerving right, but that would be an unnatural reaction, and there was no time at all for thought.
Second: With the crossing angle, at best the angle of impact would be somewhere in the 45 degree to 60 degree range. That would give a closing speed of around 110 mph or greater.
Third: Given the closing speed, the front part of the cab including engine, and probably fuel tanks, would almost certainly have ended up inside the car they hit. It would not be surprising to find that some parts of the front of the truck went clear through the car.
Fourth: Given this impact, the total fuel in the truck ended up inside and splashed underneath the car. I would go with inside, as there is no evidence in the pictures I have seen of fuel on the roadbed in the vicinity of the crossing, which would be the case if any significant quantity went under the car. Likewise, there is no evidence of fire inside or under the train beyond this one car.
Fifth: The smoke and flames say diesel fuel fire plus combustion of diesel fuel soaked car furnishings and contents. Someone else probably could give a better quantity, but I would say somewhere between 50 and 200 gallons of diesel fuel were involved. The fire has nothing to do with the relative flamability of the vehicle or contents. Some of what we see in the pictures is evidence of melted metal. For the passengers and crew to do anything about this fire other that put as much distance as they could between the fire and themselves would be an act of stupidity. In my opinion, the presence or absence of fire extinguishers, a fire fighting plan, or anything else on the train, including the materials in the car and an on-board fire supression system is completely irrelevant to the situation.
Sixth: The large hole in the side of the car behind the car on fire was caused by the first trailer coming around and slamming up against the car.
Seventh: The train did not derail because the point of impact was between the trucks. If one of the wheelsets of the train had been hit by the truck a derailment would have been a near certainty.
I have not looked much yet today for further information on injuries / deaths, but being on the upper level of the car hit by the trailer and on the side the trailer hit would almost certain result in serious injury or death. Like wise, being on the lower level of the car hit by the front end of the truck would be nearly a death sentence. Being on the upper level would not be so good, either.
Seeing pictures taken shortly after the accident, the engines were not detached immediately. That apparently came quite a bit later.
Just got back in after 24 hours away and read the tragic and sad news. I just hope that when the final count is in, the fatalities will be few. This has to be the work of an overtired/exhausted, or drugged out driver who faculties were impared or it could have been a legitimate medical condition like diabetes or seizures that caused the driver to pass out. Texting maybe, but its almost impossible to miss the loud sound of a diesel horn and how can you not see a train right in front of you? Texting should not be at fault because that far out in the desert, cell service is very sparce. Lets see what the findings of the NTSB report are.
If there is good news, it is that most of the passengers came out of this accident unharmed or with minor injuries. That probably would not have happened in an airline going down in the desert.
If there is good news, it is that most of the passengers came out of this accident unharmed or with minor injuries. That probably would not have happened in an airline going down in the desert.
printman2000
Engineer
Picture 20 actually called the train an "Amtrak vacation train."
R
Rider
Guest
It is looking worse. I hate to seem obsessive about this but for some reason, since I was on that train a week ago, I am following it.
http://www.rgj.com/article/20110625/NEWS/110624030/Amtrak+train+crash+++Multiple+passenger+deaths+++truck+driver+tried+to+brake
http://www.rgj.com/article/20110625/NEWS/110624030/Amtrak+train+crash+++Multiple+passenger+deaths+++truck+driver+tried+to+brake
Ryan
Court Jester
Thanks George for that comprehensive post.
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