Derailment of Cascades #501, DuPont WA, 2017-12-18

[flitcraft]

Apparently the Talgos are going away ASAP, though how the Cascades runs can continue in the meantime is unclear. Also, the Point Defiance route will be run for the indefinite future.

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattl...amtrak-crash-near-dupont-as-soon-as-possible/

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

The NTSB and the story are talking about the 4 older train set that are 20 years old. Two of the set are owned by Amtrak, the other two are owned by Washington DOT.

Talgo is in disagreement with the NTSB findings.

 

[Seaboard92]

I’m going to take a slightly different stance than the NTSB on this one. The Talgos did fail however the casualty rate wasn’t as bad when you consider the type of derailment it was and look at the photos. The train with a load of 83 souls only lost three which is just a hair over three percent. While all loss of life is tragic it wasn’t nearly as bad as it could have been. And I feel bad talking about our friends we lost as statistics but the fact is the equipment for the most part protected the majority of the passengers and crew.

 

[cocojacoby]

Amtrak did petition the FRA last year for a waiver in preparation for leasing the two Wisconsin train sets. One did go for testing but then back to Beech Grove and inactivity ever since. No idea what they were doing with this but now they may have an incentive to complete the transaction.

https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2018/02/01/2018-01961/petition-for-waiver-of-compliance

 

[jis]

That specific waiver request is regarding the lack of interlock between powered side doors and engine power, and is unrelated to the buff strength and other related safety waivers that the Talgo 6s run under. Talgo 8s meet the FRA collision standards.

As with many things Amtrak, it is a mystery (outside Amtrak) as to what is going on with those sets.

I’m going to take a slightly different stance than the NTSB on this one. The Talgos did fail however the casualty rate wasn’t as bad when you consider the type of derailment it was and look at the photos. The train with a load of 83 souls only lost three which is just a hair over three percent. While all loss of life is tragic it wasn’t nearly as bad as it could have been. And I feel bad talking about our friends we lost as statistics but the fact is the equipment for the most part protected the majority of the passengers and crew.

The biggest failure was of separation of cars at articulation points. To a layman, that kludge using nylon straps, seemed like a bit of a hack and was the weak point which failed spectacularly. Once cars separate and head off in different directions all bets are off, since the buff strength protection is longitudinal. Protection against getting hit from the side is considerably less. It is even worse when your own wheelset comes in and hits you from the side. That probably is something that has a higher likelihood in low slung car bodies than in high level car bodies.

The biggest non-failure OTOH was the design of the SC-44. It is quite amazing that those in the cab came out virtually unscathed.

 

[Maglev]

There were several other design features which will need to be incorporated on not just the Talgo's:

• seat belts
• glow-in-the-dark door instructions
• child safety seat attachment points
• the safety of rotating seats was called into question, although they are gone from the newer Talgo's probably for weight reduction

 

[seat38a]

Well the only option is more passenger cars from Siemens I'm assuming.

 

[jis]

Seat belts is not an NTSB recommendation at present. The recommendation is to study how to mitigate certain class of injuries. One solution could be seat belt. There are other possibilities.

And then there is this business about having a GPS moving map providing situational awareness in the cab. Chairman Summwalt felt pretty strongly about it, and it is in the recommendations I believe.

And these are NTSB recommendations. They may or may not happen. NTSB has zero power to enforce anything.

 

[Chris I]

Let’s remember that NTSB recommendations are just that: recommendations. They are often ignored (see: US auto industry, aerospace industry, etc).

As an engineer, I’m always curious about these things, and I’ve read through the entirety of Talgo’s response to the NTSB report, and I think their claims are valid, and well-supported:
https://dms.ntsb.gov/pubdms/search/document.cfm?docID=473025&docketID=62431&mkey=96496

Key takeaways:
1. Talgo maintains that the critical damage to the car containing passenger fatalities came from the concrete embankment, not from the projectile truck. At any rate, additional straps can be added to double the attach point strength. WSDOT should definitely do this.
2. Comparable crashes also had fatalities, truck separation, and car decoupling, yet the NTSB doesn’t cite this in any of those reports. Why not?
The closest comparative crash was the Philadelphia derailment, which had higher overall speed, but a lower actual speed to track speed ratio. This crash saw the complete destruction of one car, and overturning of most of the remaining cars, truck separation, etc.
The Metro-North crash was very comparable (82mph in a 30mph zone), but had the benefit of no adjacent large objects to impact. All of the cars overturned, the majority separated, and there were more fatalities. Why didn’t the NTSB cite the Metro North equipment and coupling systems as contributing to the crash? Talgo equipment would have better resisted overturning and decoupling.
3. Their analysis shows that the unique design of the Talgo equipment enabled most of the train to stay upright. Having a lower center of gravity, and with connections at both the top and bottom of the cars, the trainset really behaves as a system, and is hard to tip over (The Chambers Bay derailment illustrates this effect well). It also crumples as a system, with the end of each car crushing, instead of the lead car in the crash. Finally, their analysis also shows that had the locomotive not departed the tracks and pulled the lead cars down the embankment, the Talgo cars would have successfully negotiated the curve at 80mph.

It’s hard to guess what would have happened if traditional Amfleet or Superliner cars had been used on this trainset. I think we would have seen complete derailment of the entire train, with nearly all cars on their side or upside down. At least one would have likely hit the bridge sideways and been torn open like a can. Frankly, I think the Talgo set performed quite well given the energy involved in this crash. One of the coach carriages fell off of the bridge, landing upside down on I-5, and then was hit by a loaded tractor trailer at speed. No fatalities in that car. I couldn’t find a comparable crash anywhere for that scenario.

I think WSDOT should work with Talgo to retrofit the (4) series VI trainsets based on the recommendations in section 5 of the Talgo report. They then need to publicize this retrofit appropriately, so the traveling public has confidence in the safety of the Talgo equipment. I also think we should work to acquire the (2) ex-Wisconsin sets so that service levels can be increased when they move to the Dupont line.

 

[frequentflyer]

I posted the question some time ago, why Washington stuck with using Talgo. Not from a safety issue, though its debatable, but from a financial one. Parts and servicing would be easier and cheaper if sharing the same equipment the majority of other pax services are using.

 

[frequentflyer]

I guess those Talgo units in Indiana will end up as Coke cans too.

 

[jis]

No. They are TALGO 8 and not subject of this NTSB review. They are FRA compliant for collision/derailment safety requirements and do not require a waiver for that. They can operate anywhere in the US.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

I posted the question some time ago, why Washington stuck with using Talgo. Not from a safety issue, though its debatable, but from a financial one. Parts and servicing would be easier and cheaper if sharing the same equipment the majority of other pax services are using.

Talgo service there own equipment. The parts are made by Talgo itself or subcontractors control by Talgo. It’s a turn key operation. The cost is the cost, it’s not your problem to find all the talent to make it work. Washington DOT just cuts a check, and provides oversight. Simple and easy. It does seem Washington DOT was not doing a good job with the train operation oversight. The Talgo equipment was not the cause of the derailment.

 

[Willbridge]

Alon Levy has a blog posting that discusses the "not invented here" influence on the apparent double standard in the NTSB's analysis:

https://pedestrianobservations.com/2019/05/23/the-ntsb-wants-american-trains-to-be-less-safe/

I'm not a mechanical engineer, but I was the token American at Edmonton Transit when we put the first Siemens-DueWag LRV's into service. Given my ability to speak American (i.e., to explain Canadian transit to American inquirers) I came into contact with a number of people who wondered why we weren't buying the Boeing Vertol Standard LRV instead. We were attacked in the national media by a Canadian cabinet minister for not waiting to buy the so-called Canadian LRV. Everything that I learned in responding to those questions or comments convinced me that our people had made a brilliant selection.

It was funniest when an UMTA official from Washington, DC touted the Boeing SLRV while riding the new DueWag car. Had we chosen the Boeing product, we would not have been ready for the 1978 British Commonwealth Games and critics of the project would have had something to genuinely find fault with.

 

[jiml]

I came into contact with a number of people who wondered why we weren't buying the Boeing Vertol Standard LRV instead. We were attacked in the national media by a Canadian cabinet minister for not waiting to buy the so-called Canadian LRV. Everything that I learned in responding to those questions or comments convinced me that our people had made a brilliant selection.

It was funniest when an UMTA official from Washington, DC touted the Boeing SLRV while riding the new DueWag car. Had we chosen the Boeing product, we would not have been ready for the 1978 British Commonwealth Games and critics of the project would have had something to genuinely find fault with.

This was an excellent sidebar. The part I've quoted above provides very interesting insight into how these decisions are still made in Canada (and perhaps less noticeably in the US). VIA Rail's recent decision to buy Siemens over Bombardier has attracted a lot of the same attention you've described and high-level government officials would surely have intervened on behalf of the latter if they hadn't already stepped in a giant pile of scandal with SNC-Lavalin. Thanks for posting.

 

[Willbridge]

This was an excellent sidebar. The part I've quoted above provides very interesting insight into how these decisions are still made in Canada (and perhaps less noticeably in the US). VIA Rail's recent decision to buy Siemens over Bombardier has attracted a lot of the same attention you've described and high-level government officials would surely have intervened on behalf of the latter if they hadn't already stepped in a giant pile of scandal with SNC-Lavalin. Thanks for posting.

I won't take this further off track, but sometime when there is a thread about equipment politics I learned a few other things in Canada. And as fans of rail history know, the private railroads and transit companies have also had unexplained love for one equipment supplier or another.

 

[jiml]

I won't take this further off track, but sometime when there is a thread about equipment politics I learned a few other things in Canada. And as fans of rail history know, the private railroads and transit companies have also had unexplained love for one equipment supplier or another.

There's a book to be written!

 

[Anderson]

I won't take this further off track, but sometime when there is a thread about equipment politics I learned a few other things in Canada. And as fans of rail history know, the private railroads and transit companies have also had unexplained love for one equipment supplier or another.

At least in some cases, it becomes a case of fleet commonality. I might prefer to have my entire fleet be something mediocre than half great and half mediocre. Also, sometimes you get supplier lock-in if you do something stupid like use a non-standard loading gauge.

 

[jiml]

One need look no further than Southwest Airlines.

 

[jis]

One need look no further than Southwest Airlines.

Other examples are Ryanair (Ireland/Europe), IndiGo, Spiceair (both India, Indigo is India’s Southwest and the largest regional airline of Asia)

 

[Thirdrail7]

Sound Transit is taking their lumps for not making sure the crews were properly trained on their territory.

Sound Transit removes top safety chief after report on fatal Amtrak crash
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattl...ety-chief-based-on-fatal-amtrak-crash-report/

The Amtrak engineer involved in the 2017 derailment had operated a locomotive there three times as part of his training, along with seven to 10 observational trips with Amtrak colleagues. Amtrak apologized afterward and promised to beef up its training.

“Sound Transit staff wrongly believed that WSDOT, not Sound Transit, was responsible for overseeing all activities related to Amtrak training and qualifications,” Rogoff said in a Wednesday memo to the transit board.

The transit agency also is forming a separate safety division that Rogoff says will bring a laser focus.

 

[CHamilton]

'This month, the rail advocacy group All Aboard Washington telegraphed impatience with the delays and said the bypass route should be reactivated as soon as possible.

'"We believe that further postponing Cascades service on the Point Defiance Bypass - for which we have already paid $181 million - is detrimental to the interests of the Puget Sound region, the Pacific Northwest, and the traveling public as a whole," All Aboard Washington's leadership wrote in a blog post. "The taxpayers of Washington state have invested a significant sum of money to improve a useful service along a busy corridor. Let’s make that improved service a reality without delay."'

https://www.nwnewsnetwork.org/post/...des-service-2020-beset-multiple-uncertainties

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

It helps that the BNSF route had landslides that were blocking the passenger trains.

I do agree it past due, but it seem Denver’s RTD heavy rail line still has flaggers on duty since the train may or may not actively the grade level crossing system.

 

[Willbridge]

It helps that the BNSF route had landslides that were blocking the passenger trains.

I do agree it past due, but it seem Denver’s RTD heavy rail line still has flaggers on duty since the train may or may not actively the grade level crossing system.

I haven't checked recently but the contract operator for the Denver A, B, and G-Lines was down to flagging a couple of locations.

G-Line = https://www.rtd-denver.com/sites/default/files/2019-09/G Line flaggers 8.2.19.pdf
A-Line = https://www.rtd-denver.com/sites/de...A Line Denver Quiet Zones 2.8.19 NR Final.pdf
A & B-Line = https://www.denverpost.com/2018/12/21/rtd-flaggers-a-line-b-line-crossing/

 

[Anderson]

'This month, the rail advocacy group All Aboard Washington telegraphed impatience with the delays and said the bypass route should be reactivated as soon as possible.

'"We believe that further postponing Cascades service on the Point Defiance Bypass - for which we have already paid $181 million - is detrimental to the interests of the Puget Sound region, the Pacific Northwest, and the traveling public as a whole," All Aboard Washington's leadership wrote in a blog post. "The taxpayers of Washington state have invested a significant sum of money to improve a useful service along a busy corridor. Let’s make that improved service a reality without delay."'

https://www.nwnewsnetwork.org/post/...des-service-2020-beset-multiple-uncertainties

From a safety perspective, presuming that (for the moment) the schedule were left as-is time-wise, how slow could the trains be run on the bypass on the approaches to That Curve?