Difference between Sightseer Lounge and Observation Car?

[rvm]

I wrote recently about the Cardinal, referring to its former Superliner consist as having an Observation car, which was incorrect. It had a Sightseer Lounge.

What's the difference between a Sightseer Lounge and an Observation car?

 

[Long Train Runnin']

An observation cars were at the end of the train, and had curved windows along the back giving a wide perspective of the landscape you were passing through. They tend to only have a handful of arm chairs and I am pretty sure most had some kind of accommodations in them. Of course there are many variations, but they all were on the end of the train.

Sightseer Lounge cars were built by Amtrak in the 80s They have large windows along both sides, and food service on the lower level.

 

[Ryan]

Amtrak occasionally refers to the Sightseer as Lounge/Observation cars. I think that you got corrected by someone being overly pedantic - they certainly function as an observation car on the supeliner trains.

 

[NS VIA Fan]

An observation cars were at the end of the train, and had curved windows along the back giving a wide perspective of the landscape you were passing through. They tend to only have a handful of arm chairs and I am pretty sure most had some kind of accommodations in them. Of course there are many variations, but they all were on the end of the train.

An Observation Car would be similar to the Park Cars VIA uses.....Photos here in my recent Trip Report on the Ocean

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/34111-to-montreal-in-easterly-class-with-photos/

VIA's Park Cars also have a dome.....other observation cars have the "Round-end" only.

 

[hippyman]

An observation cars were at the end of the train, and had curved windows along the back giving a wide perspective of the landscape you were passing through. They tend to only have a handful of arm chairs and I am pretty sure most had some kind of accommodations in them. Of course there are many variations, but they all were on the end of the train.

An Observation Car would be similar to the “Park Cars” VIA uses.....Photos here in my recent Trip Report on the “Ocean”

http://discuss.amtra...ss-with-photos/

VIA's Park Cars also have a dome.....other observation cars have the "Round-end" only.

I'm taking my first trip on a viewliner, on the 24th, so I'm curious to know, what is the difference between a superliner lounge, and a viewliner lounge?(other than the obvious, I mean)

 

[rrdude]

An observation cars were at the end of the train, and had curved windows along the back giving a wide perspective of the landscape you were passing through. They tend to only have a handful of arm chairs and I am pretty sure most had some kind of accommodations in them. Of course there are many variations, but they all were on the end of the train.

An Observation Car would be similar to the "Park Cars" VIA uses.....Photos here in my recent Trip Report on the "Ocean"

http://discuss.amtra...ss-with-photos/

VIA's Park Cars also have a dome.....other observation cars have the "Round-end" only.

I'm taking my first trip on a viewliner, on the 24th, so I'm curious to know, what is the difference between a superliner lounge, and a viewliner lounge?(other than the obvious, I mean)

I didn't know Amtrak built any Viewliner Lounge Cars????

But I'm usually uneducated. Here's what I found on TrainWeb, not sure if accurate, or was built. I've never seen them, only Amfleet Food Service Cars, "acting" as lounge cars. http://trainweb.org/railworld/Amtrak/Images/Viewliner_Lounge_Cafe_Car.jpg

 

[Ryan]

There is no such thing as a Viewliner Lounge.

 

[the_traveler]

rrdude is correct. Viewliners are only sleeping cars (although there is one viewliner dining car that was built and is not in service). Single level lounge cars are basically Amfleet food service cafe car. Superliner lounge cars are bi-level cars with seating and curved windows on the upper level, and food service on the lower level!

The Cardinal's lounge car is a little different. It has booths for sit down meals in 1/3 of an Amfleet car, a cafe counter in the middle of the car, and additional tables "as the lounge" in the other 1/3 of the car!

 

[rrdude]

rrdude is correct. Viewliners are only sleeping cars (although there is one viewliner dining car that was built and is not in service). Single level lounge cars are basically Amfleet food service cafe car. Superliner lounge cars are bi-level cars with seating and curved windows on the upper level, and food service on the lower level!

The Cardinal's lounge car is a little different. It has booths for sit down meals in 1/3 of an Amfleet car, a cafe counter in the middle of the car, and additional tables "as the lounge" in the other 1/3 of the car!

It woulda' been nice though.......... A Viewliner Lounge, with the same shell, double set of windows....... **WAKE ME UP**

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Inteerting points made above. First, I liked LTR's description of a streamlined lightweight observation car.

Correct, LTR.

I would go on to add the really old (built before WW2) heavyweight observation cars were also on the end of the train and had an open platform. We have all seen politicians and others making whistlestop campaigns, speaking from the rear platform of an old observation car. Actually a lot of business cars have obsrvation platforms.

Ryan, there is a generation gap going on here. Old timers like me have to bite our tongues not to use words like "porter", "pullman", "stewardess",tc. We are old enough to remember when the older terminology was valid.

There have probably been observaton cars (at the end of the train),defined as such and called such, as long as there have been railroads.

Even when the dome was invented in the mid 40's people tended to restrict the word observation to the end of train equipment.They seemed to recognize the word "observation" had already been "taken".

Even though you could clearly "observe" more from a dome.

But times change and words change definition through the years. I suppose someday I will be comfortable calling a sightseer lounge an observation car. Give me credit....I have not murdered any one yet over it!!!

(but be careful in that dark alley tonight!!!!!}

Oh BTW, yes, those park cars on VIA are dome obsevation cars (both in one)

And it is relevant that Amtrak does not run observation cars (f it still owns any) and only one dome.

 

[Ryan]

Ryan there is a generation gap going on here. Old timers like me have to bite our tongues not to use words like "porter", "pullman", "stewardess",tc. We are old enough to remember when the older terminology was valid.

Quite true! I've got one foot firmly in each camp on this one. While I understand and respect the "traditional" definitions (and endeavor to use them correctly), I also wouldn't necessarily call out a newbie by saying "there's no observation car" on a Superliner equipped train, when clearly (in the modern usage of the word) that function is filled by a Sightseer Lounge.

(but be careful in that dark alley tonight!!!!!}

I don't think that I'll be accepting any invitations from you to ride the Auto Train in coach any time soon, lest I only make it to GA!

 

[Bob Dylan]

:hi: Excellent topic! Those of you that were in PHL on National train Day and toured the PVs will remember the fantastic old NYC observation/sleeper that was featured in North by Northhwest! Also Beech Grove,Amtraks business car for VIPs, is seen frequently on various LD trains, some of our members have even been lucky enough to have gotten tours and even been on trains where the Big Dome was also in the same consist! Weve all seen the various PVs that are hooked to the back of the various LD trains all over the country and those of you that are lucky enough to have ridden VIAs Canadian and Ocean have actually had this wonderful experience!

I guess technically you could talk about the differences and correct useage of the various names that are used to describe rail cars but as previous posters have said I think that the Sightseer Lounge IS an Observation car but not a true lounge!Bill is an expert on old railroad cars, as are several other members older than me (thats's old! :lol: )and we were privilged to have actually gotten to ride on trains that had some of these jewels in regular service back in the day! Personally I still dont see why Amtrak cant re-acquire some of these lounges and dome cars, whats good enough for Joe Boardman and Whooz! :lol:

is good enough for all of us! Fair is fair! See yall in St. Louis hopefully, T-21 and a wake-up, Couunting down the days!

 

[Eric S]

I'm taking my first trip on a viewliner, on the 24th, so I'm curious to know, what is the difference between a superliner lounge, and a viewliner lounge?(other than the obvious, I mean)

Just to clarify, there are not any Viewliner lounges. There are only Viewliner sleepers (at least for now, might change in coming years). Unlike bilevel trains where all bilevel cars are Superliners, single level trains have multiple types of cars, including Viewliners (sleepers), Heritage (diners), Horizon (coaches, lounges), Amfleet (coaches, lounges), etc. Basically, whereas "Superliner" is often used to refer to all bilevel Amtrak cars (well, most, does not include California/Surfliner cars), "Viewliner" only refers to the single-level sleepers.

 

[spacecadet]

I've got one foot firmly in each camp on this one. While I understand and respect the "traditional" definitions (and endeavor to use them correctly), I also wouldn't necessarily call out a newbie by saying "there's no observation car" on a Superliner equipped train, when clearly (in the modern usage of the word) that function is filled by a Sightseer Lounge.

I wouldn't "call out" a newbie for using the word, but I would correct it.

A Superliner Sightseer lounge does not fulfill the function of an observation car anymore than it fulfills the function of a dome car (and could therefore be called such). The important thing about observation cars was not their windows on top (most didn't have any, though a few did) but their view out the back of the train. There's probably actually a more technical explanation for why they were called "observation" cars - I'd be curious to know for sure but it's probably got something to do with a crew function before things like advanced signaling - but the thing they all had in common was the ability to see the track behind the train. That was their function. The Sightseers do not do the same thing.

It's not just a generational thing, it's a terminology thing. The term "observation car" is already taken, and it means a particular thing. Sure, anyone can call any kind of car anything they want, but that doesn't make it correct.

Now, that doesn't mean there couldn't be some *new* term invented for Sightseer Lounges, which are a type of car (bi-level food service with roof windows) that didn't really exist on older trains. But you can't use a term for a car that already existed, and still exists on North American railroads (both VIA Rail and in private usage attached to Amtrak trains).

I wouldn't fault somebody for not knowing this these days, as not a lot of people know much of anything about trains and train terminology anymore, but just like a railroad spike is called a railroad spike and not a big long nail, an observation car is what it is. People just need to learn it if they don't know the first time and use the wrong word. That's what we all need to do when talking about anything we're not that familiar with.

 

[zephyr17]

As pointed out by SpaceCadet and others on this thread, a Sightseer Lounge is not an "observation car" nor a "dome car". I personally never have and never would call it those names myself. BTW-I do consider it a "lounge car," although one with big windows. It could also be considered a "cafe car."

However, I don't correct people who call it an observation or dome, either (although it does grate). If someone asks me which direction the "observation car" is, I direct them to the Sightseer, and do it without "correcting" them ("two cars down.."). If, in discussion, someone is interested in history, or what other trains are like, I will draw the distinction, but not casually.

PS-a VIA Park car isn't "like" and observation car, it IS an observation car, specifically a dome-observation, a "dome-obs".

And while we are being pedantic, the "Pacific Parlour Car" isn't a parlor car. It is a First Class lounge car. A parlor car was first class revenue seating on non-overnight trains, not non-revenue lounge space. Technically, then, Acela First Class are "parlor cars" but not the PPCs.

 

[spacecadet]

However, I don't correct people who use those names, either (although it does grate). If someone asks me which direction the "observation car" is, I direct them to the Sightseer, and do it without "correcting" them ("two cars down..").

Well yeah, I just meant here, if there's a topic about observation cars or something and somebody starts talking about sightseer lounges. I'm not so anal that I go around correcting random questions from strangers. I was just talking about in an online forum about a railroad, we should all try to use the proper terms for things, so we know what we're actually all talking about.

Sort of the same way you say "a VIA Park car isn't "like" and observation car, it IS an observation car, specifically a dome-observation, a "dome-obs"."

 

[Ryan]

It's not just a generational thing, it's a terminology thing. The term "observation car" is already taken, and it means a particular thing. Sure, anyone can call any kind of car anything they want, but that doesn't make it correct.

It's absolutely a generational thing. Terms evolve over time. Language evolves over time. Since Amtrak doesn't run any cars that fit the traditional definition of an observation car, and refers to the Sightseer Lounge as an Observation (or Lounge/Observation), I'd say that it's a correct use of the term in the modern sense. Really it's pretty obvious and not confusing at all - if you're talking about a SL equipped train and refer to the "Observation Car", your meaning is obvious. Likewise if you're talking about a historical consist with a "real" Observation car.

 

[rvm]

No, I don't feel "called out", just corrected, justifiably so. Believe me, I get really bothered when someone calls an old printing press a "printer". Or when someone "looses" money.

 

[Ryan]

Or when someone "looses" money.

That's another thing entirely, when you just use the plain wrong word.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

I am sentimental about observation cars, (correctly defined of course).

That is because my first train ride began in the observation car. This was in 1947 and I was three years old. Our coach seat reservations were screwed up and we did not really have reservations after all.

So they had to put us in the observation car until space opened up on down the line.

I think I have vague memories of it. Thus my sentiments.

 

[zephyr17]

However, I don't correct people who use those names, either (although it does grate). If someone asks me which direction the "observation car" is, I direct them to the Sightseer, and do it without "correcting" them ("two cars down..").

Well yeah, I just meant here, if there's a topic about observation cars or something and somebody starts talking about sightseer lounges. I'm not so anal that I go around correcting random questions from strangers. I was just talking about in an online forum about a railroad, we should all try to use the proper terms for things, so we know what we're actually all talking about.

Sort of the same way you say "a VIA Park car isn't "like" and observation car, it IS an observation car, specifically a dome-observation, a "dome-obs"."

Sorry about that. Unfortunately, I do know people who DO correct people in those kind of situations (in fact, in this particular situation). Completely agree with your point about using the proper terms for things.

 

[Eric S]

Or when someone "looses" money.

Good observation.

(Sorry. I had to.)

 

[oldtimer]

Or when someone "looses" money.

Good observation.

(Sorry. I had to.)

rvm You do not have to worry if an AU'er "looses" money because except for train fares some are so tight that they have money their mother was given at their own baby shower.

 

[spacecadet]

It's absolutely a generational thing. Terms evolve over time.

We're probably going to have to agree to disagree on this. Like I said, these cars still exist and are still in use both on Amtrak (as private cars) and in regularly scheduled service on VIA Rail. They are not "historical", and technical terms (which is what this is) do not evolve over time. You're talking about colloquial usage; I'm talking about terminology. Average people call all sorts of things by the wrong words all the time; they'll call a CT scan an "x-ray", they'll call an MRI a "cat scan", they'll call a computer a "hard drive" (that one drives me crazy), they'll call a DVD a CD and vice versa, they'll call a game cartridge or even a game disc a "tape", I mean the list goes on and on.

Regular people may or may not understand these misuses when talking to each other; that's fine. But you don't argue that those misuses are actually correct just because people say them. I'm talking about the proper term for what is and is not an observation car. If someone wants to discuss a railroad (which is what Amtrak is) and maybe even learn something, then it's helpful to use the proper terminology so we are all on the same page. That's why terminology exists. Otherwise if someone comes in here talking about observation cars when they really mean sightseer lounges, many of us who do know the proper use of that term (and not all of us are that old - I'm 38 and never rode in an observation car before they were retired from regular service) are going to assume they're talking about something else.

By the way, I could very well be wrong about this but I have personally never seen Amtrak officially refer to a sightseer lounge as an "observation" car. Searching their site right now (easy to do with Google), the only mention of this at all seems to be in the Capitol Limited brochure, which does feature those words close together somewhere but then formally calls the sightseer a Sightseer Lounge/Cafe. I can't actually find where it says it in the brochure anyway (Google just has it indexed that way), but it's probably a mistake anyway as no other Superliner train brochure says something similar. Nowhere else on the Amtrak site do they officially talk about observation cars, at least not that Google has indexed. Only the blogs - which are written by regular people making the same misuse of the term - use that word for the sightseer lounges.

 

[zephyr17]

Spacecadet, try to get to Canada and ride the Canadian, so you get to experience real observation cars and real domes!