Diner-lounge 37000

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Photos from my recent trip aboard the Capitol Limited that used car 37000 as a lounge only, behind a "normal" dining car.
Photos of Diner Lounge 37000

A full written trip report with impressions and obvervations will follow.

Cheers,

David Z

Chicago, IL
Thanks for those pictures, David.

At the risk of just repeating what a bunch of other folks have been saying, I'll say this:

The more pictures I see, the more I really get a feeling that this kind of arrangement is great for a "bistro" car: a car you go to grab something to eat, sit down for ten minutes, slurp a soda, and maybe hang out for another 10 minutes, and then leave.

That's it.

And I feel almost...guilty...to feel this way, because I really wanted to see this thing work. But this layout.... if it's the only "eating" car on the train—even if there are two of them on a long route—is just not going to cut it. When I go to eat dinner, I go for a meal, and frankly, this arrangement just doesn't feel like it's conducive to eating real meals. It'd make a fantastic replacement for a Cafe/Lounge car, I think, but as a replacement for a diner? I'm just really getting a sinking feeling when I imagine what the trip would be like. Am I making any sense?

-Rafi
 
I still wonder:

Why they can't use the old dining cars and just do SDS using them. After all, they have the cars why not use them? It seems to me that a little creative thinking could work out the ways and means of using them with the new SDS service, or perhaps even a little revamping of the kitchen areas to work it out. I'm thinking of the millions being spent, that could have been used to repair cars sitting in the dead line at Beech Grove!

Sigh...OK diatribe off.
Because in today's world if you tell a manager to cut costs, most will take that to mean cut labor. Granted labor is one of the biggest costs of doing business in today's world, but that doesn't mean that there aren't other alternatives to cutting costs. Unfortunately though it seems that those put in charge of following Congress' mandate to cut food service costs have mainly focused on "how do we cut staffing", without consideration of other possible alternatives or the possible consequences of their decisions.
While I agree Alan, that most managers would think cost cutting=cutting labor, that's not what I meant and I was probably imprecise in my thoughts. You can only cut labor so much before service begins to suffer and I think that Amtrak reached that point long ago.

Couldn't an SDS type menu be set up that could use the current configuration of an Amtrak diner car? Couldn't hours be increased, prices for meals decreased, portions shrunk, and passengers encouraged to use the diner? I don't see how they can possibly save money if they are spending millions on redoing these cars. Sure, you might have less labor(staff), but it will be a long time before you recapture the money spent on the cars. Meanwhile cars that need repair sit and rust at Beech Grove. Imagine how many cars could have been refurbished and repaired for the same amount of money.

It seems that Amtrak is cutting off it's nose to spite it's face!
I wouldn't argue Frj that Amtrak IMHO has already cut staff beyond where it should have been cut. But that however doesn't seem to be the opinion of those in charge of cutting the costs of food service, so first we got SDS, which has been running now for almost one year in the current/normal dining car. That however apparently wasn't enough savings, so further cuts are being made by marrying SDS into the Diner-Lite car. Now they can once again cut at least one, if not two more OBS positions and as an added benefit reduce fuel costs by about 4% whenever they can run just one Diner Lite car instead of either 2 Diner Lite cars or 1 diner and one lounge.

As for the money being spent, which by the way for the first 18 cars should total around $4.7 million assuming no cost overruns, that comes out of the capital budget since it's a car improvement and it of course can be depreciated. Since it comes out of the capital budget and not the food service budget, those tasked with cutting food service costs don't care. Their job is to cut the food service costs as mandated by Congress.

The rest of us of course see this for what it really is, just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic as it slowly sinks into the waves. But it satisfies the Congressional mandate to cut food service losses, even though it does nothing to cut the overall funding provided to Amtrak by Congress. :blink: The next part of the Diner-Lite program however will cost quite a bit more, since converting the 40 Sightseer Lounges will cost considerably more because they don't have any of the kitchen equipment already in place on the 18 Dining cars that are currently being converted.

I will say that having Diner-Lite cars does simplify things for the crews putting the trains together, since they don't need to find a lounge car when one is bad ordered, or a diner when one is B/O'd. They only have to find a Diner Lite car when one is bad ordered.

Of course the really sad thing in all of this remains the fact that no one at Amtrak has learned from the SDS experiment this year. According to Amtrak's own end of fiscal year numbers, there is what's called the FRA contribution. In simple terms, this is the number based upon FRA allowed costs that the Federal government gives to each route that Amtrak runs to keep the trains running. In other words, it is the amount of subsidy needed for that train over the income generated by that train minus the allowed expenses to run that train. Anyone want to guess which train reduced its subsidy the most last year? :unsure:

If you said Empire Builder, you're right. While the EB still lost money, it was one of only three* LD trains that actually reduced its subsidy and it did the best of the three reducing its subsidy by $2.7 million dollars. In second place was the City on NOL which reduced subsidies by $900M, followed by the Cardinal which reduced its subsidy by $400M. All other LD's despite running with SDS for almost 6 months, required more subsidy monies in 2006 than they did in 2005.

Just to be clear, the train that did the best at reducing its overall subsidy last year, was one of only two trains that did not cut services by implementing SDS.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*To be fair I will say that it does appear that the Silver Service may also have cut its subsidies last year, however due to the way that Amtrak presented the numbers in 2004, 2005, and 2006 I can't be sure. Some years they broke out the costs of all three trains and in other years they combined them, so it makes it hard to be sure what the real numbers are.
 
Shiney, new, clean, and empty, they do look nice. Once it looses its coolness because it is not run down like most of the fleet, it will just be another missguided amtak/congressional mistake.
 
I'm a huge supporter of Amtrak but I cannot understand their constant conversions of cars. Just a few years ago the sightseer lounges (some of them at least, I don't know if all) were converted to have tables on one end of the car. Now after these remodeled cars are just a few years old this design is history? This doesn't make much fiscal sense. Amtrak seems to never have a hard time coming up with money for diner/lounge conversions.
 
Ok, I had to finally check this thing out myself -- even if it involved driving from Chicago to South Bend... riding the Capitol SOB-CHI... taking a commuter train from CHI back to SOB, and finally driving back to Chicago. But hey, I'm a railfan, and it was sooo worth it!

Check out my new pictures and review from riding on the diner/lounge Saturday morning 12/23.

www.rtabern.com/amtrak-29a.html
Thanks for explaining about why there are two different tables! Glad that you made a history!
Amtrak please change the 3 letter code for South Bend.SBD STB would be a nicer code than SOB!

I have seen people carrying their bags they had checked to South Bend and im sure they had rather

not had a tag marked SOB on them.
 
One thought on a possible purpose behind Diner Lite.

Most of you have ridden LD trains before, and are comfortable with the dining arrangements as they are. However, for a lot of people who are new to Amtrak, dining with strangers sounds weird. I've not done it myself, and I must say I thought it was strange before I really started reading about it here.

It sounds more like a neighborhood bar/grill - like an Applebee's or Outback Steakhouse - rather than a formal, sit down dinner. To me, Diner Lite sounds more the types of places most couples and families are choosing for their meals today. Perhaps Amtrak is looking to expand its passenger base, rather than catering to those who are already fans of the current methods.

This may or may not be a good idea (there's no point in spending money to attract new riders with an idea that turns off the old one), and the current implementation may or may not be successful. However, I think it is in keeping with how a lot of people live today.
 
One thought on a possible purpose behind Diner Lite.
Most of you have ridden LD trains before, and are comfortable with the dining arrangements as they are. However, for a lot of people who are new to Amtrak, dining with strangers sounds weird. I've not done it myself, and I must say I thought it was strange before I really started reading about it here.

It sounds more like a neighborhood bar/grill - like an Applebee's or Outback Steakhouse - rather than a formal, sit down dinner. To me, Diner Lite sounds more the types of places most couples and families are choosing for their meals today. Perhaps Amtrak is looking to expand its passenger base, rather than catering to those who are already fans of the current methods.

This may or may not be a good idea (there's no point in spending money to attract new riders with an idea that turns off the old one), and the current implementation may or may not be successful. However, I think it is in keeping with how a lot of people live today.
Unfortunately the "community dining" aspect goes back many years before Amtrak even existed. Seating strangers together was the brain child of pre-Amtrak railroads when diners stayed full during the times they were open. Some were diner-lounges that took more tables away from meal service and thus encouraged strangers meeting strangers.
 
If they want to cut food service costs, perhaps they need to employ cheaper food service workers. What do private restaurants pay food service workers? How much are Amtrak food service workers paid. In the 1940's & 50's what did the private railroads pay the food service workers in relation to the wage of non-railroad food service workers or in relation to the wage of the railroad engineer or conductor? If the cooks and waitstaff are being paid $50,000 per year, there is no way that you will ever be able to break even on food service. Perhaps they need to hire illegal aliens or recent immigrants for these positions and pay lower wages.
 
If they want to cut food service costs, perhaps they need to employ cheaper food service workers. What do private restaurants pay food service workers? How much are Amtrak food service workers paid. In the 1940's & 50's what did the private railroads pay the food service workers in relation to the wage of non-railroad food service workers or in relation to the wage of the railroad engineer or conductor? If the cooks and waitstaff are being paid $50,000 per year, there is no way that you will ever be able to break even on food service. Perhaps they need to hire illegal aliens or recent immigrants for these positions and pay lower wages.
Ken:

First you have a union to deal with and secondly, unless you have an idea as to how long these employees are on the job for a 2-3 day train ride, you are not going to find qualified illegal aliens, immigrants or any other person to be away from home for 5-7 days, live in a small cubilce for 2-3 days at a time, work all three meal shifts, set-up, clean-up, stock and re-stock and wait on the passengers. The $50,000 you quote is not a typical figure, but even if it was, the conditions under which they work call for some sort of extra benefit. Now, having said all that, there definitely are changes that have to be made. Perhaps leasing out the equipment to a food service company who would provide all the services as noted above for a set fee, or as they are trying to do now, become more efficient. All change takes time and there are changes being made constanly to how this service is provided. I can assure you illegal immigrants are not the answer.
 
If they want to cut food service costs, perhaps they need to employ cheaper food service workers. What do private restaurants pay food service workers? How much are Amtrak food service workers paid. In the 1940's & 50's what did the private railroads pay the food service workers in relation to the wage of non-railroad food service workers or in relation to the wage of the railroad engineer or conductor? If the cooks and waitstaff are being paid $50,000 per year, there is no way that you will ever be able to break even on food service. Perhaps they need to hire illegal aliens or recent immigrants for these positions and pay lower wages.
Ken:

First you have a union to deal with and secondly, unless you have an idea as to how long these employees are on the job for a 2-3 day train ride, you are not going to find qualified illegal aliens, immigrants or any other person to be away from home for 5-7 days, live in a small cubilce for 2-3 days at a time, work all three meal shifts, set-up, clean-up, stock and re-stock and wait on the passengers. The $50,000 you quote is not a typical figure, but even if it was, the conditions under which they work call for some sort of extra benefit. Now, having said all that, there definitely are changes that have to be made. Perhaps leasing out the equipment to a food service company who would provide all the services as noted above for a set fee, or as they are trying to do now, become more efficient. All change takes time and there are changes being made constanly to how this service is provided. I can assure you illegal immigrants are not the answer.
I agree 100% with Haolerider, and in fact we've had this same discussion here on the board many times already in the past. Despite efforts by some in government to blame the losses in food service on the high paid workers, one simply cannot compare your average waiter/waitress to a worker in a dining car on Amtrak.

As noted above, your average resturant worker does not work all three meals each day and they get to go home and sleep in their own bed. Your average resturant worker doesn't have to carry a tray full of hot coffee while the floor of the resturant is bouncing and jerking around. Next $50,000 is not a typical salary for a food service worker on Amtrak, it is lower than that. Additionally when they compare the salary of a resturant worker to an Amtrak worker, they only compare the base salaries. That is the portion that the resturant actually pays the worker.

They are not comparing tips, which is what most resturant workers relay upon for their total income. Most Amtrak workers don't get 15% of the total check in tips. Especially since most diners in the dining car are sleeper pax and therefore don't get a check. So if they even bother to leave a tip at all, and many don't since they believe it's included in the free meals, they leave a buck or two since they can't calculate the correct tip without the check.

Finally your average resturant worker doesn't have to undergo safety training and is not responsible for the safety of their patrons. An Amtrak worker is responsible and must know what to do in an emergency, things like where are the emergency exits, how do you open them, how to properly evacuate the car and when to evacuate.
 
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If they want to cut food service costs, perhaps they need to employ cheaper food service workers. What do private restaurants pay food service workers? How much are Amtrak food service workers paid. In the 1940's & 50's what did the private railroads pay the food service workers in relation to the wage of non-railroad food service workers or in relation to the wage of the railroad engineer or conductor? If the cooks and waitstaff are being paid $50,000 per year, there is no way that you will ever be able to break even on food service. Perhaps they need to hire illegal aliens or recent immigrants for these positions and pay lower wages.
Ken:

First you have a union to deal with and secondly, unless you have an idea as to how long these employees are on the job for a 2-3 day train ride, you are not going to find qualified illegal aliens, immigrants or any other person to be away from home for 5-7 days, live in a small cubilce for 2-3 days at a time, work all three meal shifts, set-up, clean-up, stock and re-stock and wait on the passengers. The $50,000 you quote is not a typical figure, but even if it was, the conditions under which they work call for some sort of extra benefit. Now, having said all that, there definitely are changes that have to be made. Perhaps leasing out the equipment to a food service company who would provide all the services as noted above for a set fee, or as they are trying to do now, become more efficient. All change takes time and there are changes being made constanly to how this service is provided. I can assure you illegal immigrants are not the answer.
I agree 100% with Haolerider, and in fact we've had this same discussion here on the board many times already in the past. Despite efforts by some in government to blame the losses in food service on the high paid workers, one simply cannot compare your average waiter/waitress to a worker in a dining car on Amtrak.

As noted above, your average resturant worker does not work all three meals each day and they get to go home and sleep in their own bed. Your average resturant worker doesn't have to carry a tray full of hot coffee while the floor of the resturant is bouncing and jerking around. Next $50,000 is not a typical salary for a food service worker on Amtrak, it is lower than that. Additionally when they compare the salary of a resturant worker to an Amtrak worker, they only compare the base salaries. That is the portion that the resturant actually pays the worker.

They are not comparing tips, which is what most resturant workers relay upon for their total income. Most Amtrak workers don't get 15% of the total check in tips. Especially since most diners in the dining car are sleeper pax and therefore don't get a check. So if they even bother to leave a tip at all, and many don't since they believe it's included in the free meals, they leave a buck or two since they can't calculate the correct tip without the check.

Finally your average resturant worker doesn't have to undergo safety training and is not responsible for the safety of their patrons. An Amtrak worker is responsible and must know what to do in an emergency, things like where are the emergency exits, how do you open them, how to properly evacuate the car and when to evacuate.

So really, an Amtrak food service worker is much like a flight attendant, in terms of schedule, job requirements, etc. According to salary figures I've seen, flight attendants start in the upper teens, but easily get to $30-$40000 after 6+ years.
 
So really, an Amtrak food service worker is much like a flight attendant, in terms of schedule, job requirements, etc. According to salary figures I've seen, flight attendants start in the upper teens, but easily get to $30-$40000 after 6+ years.
That might be a slightly more favorable comparison, but even then most flight attendants go to sleep in a hotel room, not a roomette. And most flight attendants aren't basically on duty for 3 days straight.

And I sure hope that starting salaries for flight attendants are higher than upper teens, that's almost poverty level. :eek: Like 8 bucks an hour or so, these days even McDonalds pays almost that much an hour.
 
So really, an Amtrak food service worker is much like a flight attendant, in terms of schedule, job requirements, etc. According to salary figures I've seen, flight attendants start in the upper teens, but easily get to $30-$40000 after 6+ years.
Flight Attendants start out better than that.

From the Bureau of Labor Statistics:
Online Wage Library - FLC Wage Search Results

Sunday, January 21, 2007 New Quick Search New Search Wizard

You selected the All Industries database for 7/2006 - 6/2007. Your search returned the following:

Area Code: 35644

Area Title: NEW YORK-WHITE PLAINS-WAYNE, NY-NJ METRO DIV

OES/SOC Code: 39-6031

OES/SOC Title: Flight Attendants

Level 1 Wage: $30,640 year

Level 2 Wage: $44,293 year

Level 3 Wage: $57,950 year

Level 4 Wage: $71,600 year

GeoLevel: 1

This wage applies to the following O*Net occupations:

39-6031.00 Flight Attendants

Provide personal services to ensure the safety and comfort of airline passengers during flight. Greet passengers, verify tickets, explain use of safety equipment, and serve food or beverages.
 
So really, an Amtrak food service worker is much like a flight attendant, in terms of schedule, job requirements, etc. According to salary figures I've seen, flight attendants start in the upper teens, but easily get to $30-$40000 after 6+ years.
Flight Attendants start out better than that.

From the Bureau of Labor Statistics:
Online Wage Library - FLC Wage Search Results

Sunday, January 21, 2007 New Quick Search New Search Wizard

You selected the All Industries database for 7/2006 - 6/2007. Your search returned the following:

Area Code: 35644

Area Title: NEW YORK-WHITE PLAINS-WAYNE, NY-NJ METRO DIV

OES/SOC Code: 39-6031

OES/SOC Title: Flight Attendants

Level 1 Wage: $30,640 year

Level 2 Wage: $44,293 year

Level 3 Wage: $57,950 year

Level 4 Wage: $71,600 year

GeoLevel: 1

This wage applies to the following O*Net occupations:

39-6031.00 Flight Attendants

Provide personal services to ensure the safety and comfort of airline passengers during flight. Greet passengers, verify tickets, explain use of safety equipment, and serve food or beverages.
Hmm, very interesting. Thanks for those numbers Rick. :)

It would be helpful to know what one has to do to move up one level. However based upon that, I'd almost say that Amtrak food service workers aren't paid enough for the jobs that they perform. I don't believe that there are many, if any, Amtrak food service workers who are making as much as a level 4 flight attendant.

I recall a post by one Amtrak cook, the highest paid food service position with Amtrak, whom after 14 years of service was making money in the area of the level 2 numbers for flight attendants.
 
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Amtrak please change the 3 letter code for South Bend.SBD STB would be a nicer code than SOB!I have seen people carrying their bags they had checked to South Bend and im sure they had rather

not had a tag marked SOB on them.

Who ever did this must not be a Notre Dame fan. Maybe they were from Miami or USC. :D
 
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So really, an Amtrak food service worker is much like a flight attendant, in terms of schedule, job requirements, etc. According to salary figures I've seen, flight attendants start in the upper teens, but easily get to $30-$40000 after 6+ years.
Flight Attendants start out better than that.

I got my information here:

http://www.cabincrewjobs.com/salarycomparison.html

Looking at it again, the numbers are a few years old.
 
Hmm, very interesting. Thanks for those numbers Rick. :)
It would be helpful to know what one has to do to move up one level. However based upon that, I'd almost say that Amtrak food service workers aren't paid enough for the jobs that they perform. I don't believe that there are many, if any, Amtrak food service workers who are making as much as a level 4 flight attendant.
Generally speaking level one is entry level or less than two years of experience. Level two is two to five years of expereince, level 3 is over five years of expereince and level four is over ten years or requiring something that is not normally requied (like a masters degree for a job that typically requires a BA/BS.

That's an oversimplification of this system, but for my practice it works.

Rick
 
Generally speaking level one is entry level or less than two years of experience. Level two is two to five years of expereince, level 3 is over five years of expereince and level four is over ten years or requiring something that is not normally requied (like a masters degree for a job that typically requires a BA/BS.
Then based upon that, the cook who once posted here with 14 years of experience is underpaid for the job he's performing, since he makes no where near a level 3 salary.
 
No airline occupation has been as hard hit as flight attendant. Today's average salary is in the low $30K range. Flight attendants at some major airlines make less today than they did in the mid-1980's. The BLS figures are simply not supported by today's airline labor environment. I am sure today's flight attendants would be thrilled to get even the Level 2 wage listed by the BLS.

And when we compare a flight attendant with an Amtrak food service worker, lets remember that a flight attendant has a defined safety role. Although Amtrak workers get some safety training, for a flight attendant passenger safety is an integral part of the job. If an evacuation is needed, the FA is responsible to make it happen. If the cabin loses pressure, the FA is responsible to ensure everyone is on oxygen. If there is turbulence the FA is responsible to ensure the passengers are seated and belted in. The role of a FA goes way beyond that of an Amtrak snack seller. To compare the salary of a FA and an Amtrak food service worker and conclude that the Amtrak worker is underpaid is not accurate.

One more thing: airline flight attendants are prohibited from accepting tips.
 
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