Discontinued Amtrak Route You Want Revived.

[west point]

Philly Amtrak Fan IMHO is on the correct track ( pun intended ). Serve as many persons as possible. Actually take that statement further serve the most persons who would ride a train and bring in the most revenue over costs.. With limited assets Amtrak serves the NEC with a lot of passengers that pay much more per mile than most LD routes.

The NY - CHI. CLT - NY, CHI - STL, CHI - MSP, San Diego - Sacramento, PDX - SEA markets are examples. Not thru some wilderness with few potential passengers.

 

[Eric S]

I'd favor the Pioneer over the North Coast Hiawatha because you can run it as through cars with the CZ and split at either Denver or SLC and it gives a one seat ride from Denver to the Pacific Northwest. If you can have a way for the NCH and EB to run together for some miles I might change my mind. But I think running another 2000 mile train from CHI to SEA/PDX is a complete waste of money which can be better spent elsewhere.

It would be possible to operate the EB and NCH as a combined train over their western and/or eastern ends, perhaps between CHI and FAR on the east and SEA/PDX and SPK on the west, if that's what was desired.

(I'm not arguing in favor of that, just pointing it out as a possibility. If, for whatever reason the NCH was to be restored, I'd rather than it operate separately so as to provide a second daily train on the more heavily populated western and eastern sections of their routes. Again though, this would be VERY far down my list of priorities for expansion.)

 

[Seaboard92]

The other option would be to make the North Coast Limited (sorry I hate the North Coast Hiawatha name) would be to rub it as a separate train between CHI-STP and just run it out of CHI in the late evening and make it a night train to STP. There might be some market for that. That or run it out around 12 and push the Builder back an hour or two.

 

[railiner]

If they did restore the North Coast Limited, I would rather it travel a completely different route from the EB....I would like to see it revert to its original route...The Burlington Route from Chicago to St. Paul via East Dubuque, and from Spokane to Seattle via Yakima....

 

[jphjaxfl]

If they did restore the North Coast Limited, I would rather it travel a completely different route from the EB....I would like to see it revert to its original route...The Burlington Route from Chicago to St. Paul via East Dubuque, and from Spokane to Seattle via Yakima....

And the funding will come from where? In the early 1970s when the North Coast Hiawatha was started, Montana had a very influential Senator named Mike Mansfield that was able to resurrect the Southern Montana route which had only been gone for a year. Now there has been no passenger train service through Southern Montana for 37 years and there is no champion in Washington to find the $.

 

[railiner]

If they did restore the North Coast Limited, I would rather it travel a completely different route from the EB....I would like to see it revert to its original route...The Burlington Route from Chicago to St. Paul via East Dubuque, and from Spokane to Seattle via Yakima....

And the funding will come from where? In the early 1970s when the North Coast Hiawatha was started, Montana had a very influential Senator named Mike Mansfield that was able to resurrect the Southern Montana route which had only been gone for a year. Now there has been no passenger train service through Southern Montana for 37 years and there is no champion in Washington to find the $.

I wasn't really considering where the funding would come from....this whole thread is really just a "wish list" with perhaps a few exceptions, as far as future new service...

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

If they did restore the North Coast Limited, I would rather it travel a completely different route from the EB....I would like to see it revert to its original route...The Burlington Route from Chicago to St. Paul via East Dubuque, and from Spokane to Seattle via Yakima....

And the funding will come from where? In the early 1970s when the North Coast Hiawatha was started, Montana had a very influential Senator named Mike Mansfield that was able to resurrect the Southern Montana route which had only been gone for a year. Now there has been no passenger train service through Southern Montana for 37 years and there is no champion in Washington to find the $.

Great, another meddling senator from an irrelevant state forcing a train to nowhere on us and taking away money that could be spent on a better route. Wasn't the LSL cancelled around the same time and wasn't restarted until New York agreed to subsidize the train? Can you imagine Amtrak today with the NCH instead of the LSL today (and knowing Congress, no BL either)?

I wasn't really considering where the funding would come from....this whole thread is really just a "wish list" with perhaps a few exceptions, as far as future new service...

I'd rather wish for service that will gain significant ridership. How many relevant markets do you gain by running the NCH that isn't already served by the EB?

 

[jis]

If they did restore the North Coast Limited, I would rather it travel a completely different route from the EB....I would like to see it revert to its original route...The Burlington Route from Chicago to St. Paul via East Dubuque, and from Spokane to Seattle via Yakima....

And the funding will come from where? In the early 1970s when the North Coast Hiawatha was started, Montana had a very influential Senator named Mike Mansfield that was able to resurrect the Southern Montana route which had only been gone for a year. Now there has been no passenger train service through Southern Montana for 37 years and there is no champion in Washington to find the $.

Great, another meddling senator from an irrelevant state forcing a train to nowhere on us and taking away money that could be spent on a better route. Wasn't the LSL cancelled around the same time and wasn't restarted until New York agreed to subsidize the train? Can you imagine Amtrak today with the NCH instead of the LSL today (and knowing Congress, no BL either)?

Well, the LSL was not part of the original Amtrak system because they chose the Broadway Limited as the New York - Chicago train. Arguably, the success of the LSL together with the loss of the Fort Wayne line eventually led to the demise of the Broadway Limited. This is a case of what happens when one state stands up and supports a train for their state while another one snoozes and pisses away their train. PA was given a chance to provide some support for the continuance of the train through Pittsburgh, and they of course kindly declined, so the train went away. They also consistently declined supporting a second train between PHL and PGH, and the result is of course predictable.

The reality is that every train in the Amtrak system is a political creation, and they live or die by politics. Pretending that there is some decision making procedure within Amtrak that is independent of political interference is just being an Ostrich with head stuck in sand, deep down. If it were otherwise the Lone Star would still be ariound and the Texas Eagle long gone and forgotten.

 

[JayPea]

Philly, I think the people of Montana might disagree about their state being irrelevant. And I'm not usually prone to doing this but why the need to insult the entire population of a state or region??? And as the NCH ultimately serves Seattle, I don't think you can accurately charachterize it as a "train to nowhere".

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

The reality is that every train in the Amtrak system is a political creation, and they live or die by politics. Pretending that there is some decision making procedure within Amtrak that is independent of political interference is just being an Ostrich with head stuck in sand, deep down.

I'm not pretending there isn't any political interference, I'm saying there is and that's the problem with Amtrak. If Amtrak let people who actually understand business make decisions they would be in much better financial shape (still not profitable but better than what we have now).

The reality is that every train in the Amtrak system is a political creation, and they live or die by politics. Pretending that there is some decision making procedure within Amtrak that is independent of political interference is just being an Ostrich with head stuck in sand, deep down. If it were otherwise the Lone Star would still be ariound and the Texas Eagle long gone and forgotten.

I never understood why the Texas Eagle was chosen above the Lone Star. The PM/TM for the Lone Star was almost twice the then Eagle: http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/66476-passenger-miles-per-train-mile-metric/. And why would senators in Texas favor one over the other? The only reasonable explanation would be Arkansas. Meanwhile, you've screwed Kansas and Oklahoma.

 

[jis]

The reality is that every train in the Amtrak system is a political creation, and they live or die by politics. Pretending that there is some decision making procedure within Amtrak that is independent of political interference is just being an Ostrich with head stuck in sand, deep down.

I'm not pretending there isn't any political interference, I'm saying there is and that's the problem with Amtrak. If Amtrak let people who actually understand business make decisions they would be in much better financial shape (still not profitable but better than what we have now).

It is not within Amtrak's ability to do anything of the sort since its Board is entirely a political creation. The sooner you internalize this unfortunate fact the better you will be able to handle the rest of the reality of Amtrak.

Actually this is generally true of all government run rail systems in the world, not just Amtrak. You have not seen political interference and its true face until you look behind the history of some truly bizarre trains that are run by the Indian Railways for example.

 

[Bob Dylan]

jis pretty well summed it up but as pertains to the Texas Eagle vs. the Lone Star, there was a very influential Senator from Texas named Kay Bailey Hutichison that actually helped save Amtrak as well as the Texas Eagle!. ( our other Senator was an empty suit just like the current two!)

Lots of us wanted the Lone Star to continue ( old Santa Fe Texas Chief Route)since it served the DFW area ( Ft Worth but not Dallas) and had a Houston section from FTW, but since Oklahoma and Kansas didn't get involved it went poof!

The Texas Eagle ran through East Texas on the route of the old Mopac Eagle skipping the DFW stops.( from Longview via Taylor to Austin and on to San Antonio) It also connected with the NdeM's Aztec Eagle in Laredo, Texas which continued on to Mexico City using old Mopac Equipment including a Diner,Sleepers and Dome Car!I took this trip several times.

Political deals and trade-offs are how our system is supposed to work and calling US Senators representatives of Podunk States isn't realistic. ( Mike Mansfield, D-Montana,was the Senate Majority Leader and of course the Cardinal's protector,Senator Byrd, was Chairman of the Appropriations Committee and also a Majority Leader in the Senate, Powerful Positions!)

You could look it up!

 

[jis]

Philly, I think the people of Montana might disagree about their state being irrelevant. And I'm not usually prone to doing this but why the need to insult the entire population of a state or region??? And as the NCH ultimately serves Seattle, I don't think you can accurately charachterize it as a "train to nowhere".

Indeed. In addition it takes a lot of gall or ignorance to characterize Yellowstone National Park as "nowhere" too.

 

[JayPea]

Philly, I think the people of Montana might disagree about their state being irrelevant. And I'm not usually prone to doing this but why the need to insult the entire population of a state or region??? And as the NCH ultimately serves Seattle, I don't think you can accurately charachterize it as a "train to nowhere".

Indeed. In addition it takes a lot of gall or ignorance to characterize Yellowstone National Park as "nowhere" too.

The 4,000,000+ visitors to Yellowstone in 2015 certainly don't think it's "nowhere" either.

 

[Seaboard92]

I would also classify Chicago the eastern end point not a "nowhere either" that or the Broadway Limited would be a train to Nowhere. What is one mans nowhere is another mans somewhere.

 

[CCC1007]

If they did restore the North Coast Limited, I would rather it travel a completely different route from the EB....I would like to see it revert to its original route...The Burlington Route from Chicago to St. Paul via East Dubuque, and from Spokane to Seattle via Yakima....

And the funding will come from where? In the early 1970s when the North Coast Hiawatha was started, Montana had a very influential Senator named Mike Mansfield that was able to resurrect the Southern Montana route which had only been gone for a year. Now there has been no passenger train service through Southern Montana for 37 years and there is no champion in Washington to find the $.

Great, another meddling senator from an irrelevant state forcing a train to nowhere on us and taking away money that could be spent on a better route. Wasn't the LSL cancelled around the same time and wasn't restarted until New York agreed to subsidize the train? Can you imagine Amtrak today with the NCH instead of the LSL today (and knowing Congress, no BL either)?

I wasn't really considering where the funding would come from....this whole thread is really just a "wish list" with perhaps a few exceptions, as far as future new service...

I'd rather wish for service that will gain significant ridership. How many relevant markets do you gain by running the NCH that isn't already served by the EB?

Hey! In my opinion your pet project is irrelevant as most of your state has FREQUENT service! The NCH would serve five of the seven large towns in Montana, as well as the more populated areas of North Dakota and provide a second frequency on a very busy section of the builders route! I usually bite my tongue when you propose adding the three rivers back at the expense of the cardinal, but this is simply a thread about hypothetical additions, so the NCH is a valid route, and I thought my proposal to have the states purchase the necessary equipment for the service is reasonable, and it is something you should think about proposing in your plans as well, as it would allow new routes without axing other routes.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

When we fall into cannibalizing one train to feed equipment to others, we have fallen into the trap of doing the haters' work for them.

No cutbacks! Only growth!

Let's concentrate on ordering replacements for all the single-level cars to start, for the bi-levels soon after, and hundreds of 'extra' cars to expand the map with restored and new routes.

Let's have the politicians scramble to get new services thru their states and districts using the hundreds of 'extra' cars.

But cutbacks, no. You'll have all the success of Sears and Kmart with a policy of yearly cutbacks. hboy:

The cure for what ails Amtrak is more and better Amtrak.

 

[jis]

Woody, I like the way you think!

 

[WoodyinNYC]

The other option would be to make the North Coast Limited (sorry I hate the North Coast Hiawatha name)

Terrible names. Terrible. We already have Hiawatha trains near the Lake Michigan West Coast. So the North Coast? Where's that? It not our north-most train, because the Empire Builder sticks closer to the Canadian border.

Given the geography and history of the route, perhaps we should call it the Sacajawea? Anyway, nominations are in order. All entries will be judged as better than "North Coast Hiawatha".

 

[CCC1007]

The other option would be to make the North Coast Limited (sorry I hate the North Coast Hiawatha name)

Terrible names. Terrible. We already have Hiawatha trains near the Lake Michigan West Coast. So the North Coast? Where's that? It not our north-most train, because the Empire Builder sticks closer to the Canadian border.
Given the geography and history of the route, perhaps we should call it the Sacajawea? Anyway, nominations are in order. All entries will be judged as better than "North Coast Hiawatha".

How about "Mainstreeter"

 

[jis]

If you must steal a train name from the Milwaukee Road you could use the Olympian referring to the Olympian Peninsula of course.

 

[Seaboard92]

Most of the route of amtraks NCH was actually the ex NP. So the north coast limited would be the name. Just because that was their flagship on the route. And then the mainstreeter was its secondary rub

 

[jis]

However, it was the Mainstreeter that traveled via Helena and via Mullens Pass as any restored service on the southern tier of Montana would. The North Coast Limited traveled via Butte and Homestake Pass, which is currently out of service.

 

[railiner]

The original NP name "North Coast Limited", had nothing to do with its running along the Northern part of the country....rather it referred to its destination--Portland and Seattle both being on the North end of the US West Coast....

As to the Amtrak name "North Coast Hiawatha"....that was a way to include its new routing from Chicago to St. Paul on the Milwaukee Road, rather than its former routing on the Burlington.

Along that vein, I had always thought that a more appropriate name for Amtrak's original "San Francisco Zephyr", would have been "Overland Zephyr"....combining its route on the Overland Route (SP-UP Oakland to Denver), and the Way of the Zephyr's, from Denver to Chicago....

 

[neroden]

Hey! In my opinion your pet project is irrelevant as most of your state has FREQUENT service!

Sorry, you're wrong about this. Pennsylvania has MUCH more urgent service needs than *anything* in Montana. I give you as examples:* Bethelehem - Allentown

* Scranton - Wilkes Barre

These two metro areas together have more population than the *entire state of Montana*. Neither has intercity train service.

And it would be significantly cheaper to restore train service to these locations (both of them!) than to operate the North Coast Hiawatha.

Sadly, the rural voters of "Pennsyltucky" have prevented improvements in rail service anywhere in Pennsylvania for decades. The population dynamics have *finally* shifted enough that this deadlock has been broken (with Act 89 of 2013 as evidence). So we may finally see some long-overdue improvements... if we push hard for them.

It's really, really hard to care about service to Butte (where my mother grew up!) or Helena when you can't get to Columbus Ohio or Allentown PA by train.

I mean, sure, if you can get state funding for it, go for it. Good luck. But I strongly want federal funding to go either to:

-- the highest *national* priorities, which is to say the *biggest* cities with no service or terrible service;

or to

-- the most financially beneficial routes so that the profits can be used to add *yet more routes later*.

It's a question of priorities. Eventually we need it all. But if we spend money on Allentown (for example), I think it'll generate money which can be used to pay for other routes like NCH later. The same is unfortunately not true of spending money on NCH now.

I want Amtrak to focus first on increases in service which have a financial profile like Lynchburg service. I think there are several of these available.