Do we need "Long Distance " trains?

[caravanman]

Why is it that people who claim to be passenger rail enthusiasts spend such an inordinate amount of time trying to figure out how to make the service worse? Seems like some kind of a Stockholm Syndrome or something, possibly worthy of a learned psychological study.

As someone who has enjoyed tens of thousands LD Amtrak miles, I am probably already seen as needing psychiatric help...
If I travel from Scotland to London, it seems fine to expect to spend the night in London, then board the Eurostar to Paris the next morning. I dont expect a through train. Admittedly, those folk who want to travel from Luton to Gatwick across London will have dozens of other trains to cater for their needs also...

 

[jiml]

Admittedly, those folk who want to travel from Luton to Gatwick across London

That's a good example to compare with some of those used to refute the idea. That said, there's no direct way to travel by train from a point on one side of many major North American cities to a point on the other, e.g. Detroit to St. Louis, San Jose to San Diego, Montreal to Windsor, ON, etc.

 

[jis]

That's a good example to compare with some of those used to refute the idea. That said, there's no direct way to travel by train from a point on one side of many major North American cities to a point on the other, e.g. Detroit to St. Louis, San Jose to San Diego, Montreal to Windsor, ON, etc.

It is one thing that many places don't have cross city service. It is another thing to use those as examples to justify an argument that where such service exists they are unnecessary and therefore should be discontinued.

 

[Asher]

Don’t most “bands on the run” (pun intended ), travel overnight on their “entertainer” coaches between gigs?

Yeah, a lot do I guess, my kids for the most part have used a large van or sprinter

 

[jiml]

It is one thing that many places don;t have cross city service. It is another thing to use those as examples to justify an argument that where such service exists they are unnecessary and therefore should be discontinued.

And I'm not advocating to discontinue anything, however some of the examples I cited were previously possible and not nearly as abstract as some of those used to justify the status quo.

 

[jis]

And I'm not advocating to discontinue anything, however some of the examples I cited were previously possible and not nearly as abstract as some of those used to justify the status quo.

So you are quoting examples where things were discontinued and yet you are not advocating discontinuance. So one is left wondering what is the purpose of quoting those examples. Is it just a matter of a set of concrete examples in support of an abstract philosophical position? Or a non-existent position?

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Don’t most “bands on the run” (pun intended ), travel overnight on their “entertainer” coaches between gigs?

Indeed they do! Best way to travel, yes even better than Amtrak!

As someone who has enjoyed tens of thousands LD Amtrak miles, I am probably already seen as needing psychiatric help...
If I travel from Scotland to London, it seems fine to expect to spend the night in London, then board the Eurostar to Paris the next morning. I dont expect a through train. Admittedly, those folk who want to travel from Luton to Gatwick across London will have dozens of other trains to cater for their needs also...

But you can take an overnight train from Scotland to London and connect to the Eurostar that morning. No need to overnight in London.

 

[jebr]

And I'm not advocating to discontinue anything, however some of the examples I cited were previously possible and not nearly as abstract as some of those used to justify the status quo.

And all three of these examples have an option for same-day connections, if so desired - none of these options would force or require an overnight layover, presuming the connecting train is running that day (in the case of the Coast Starlight.)

There's a vast difference between having a train stop in a city for 8-10 hours just to have everything run in daylight, and having connection points where people can transfer between trains same-day, many of which have multiple daily connection options available. Even Chicago is set up for long distance trains to not have overnight layovers between many of the most common city pairs, especially pre-COVID.

 

[fdaley]

This is a horrible idea for travelers that are not end to end travelers.

And it's a horrible idea for end-to-end travelers as well. With Amtrak's current schedules, I can leave upstate New York on Friday night and be in southern California early Monday morning, something we've done many times, with one transfer in Chicago. A series of day trains would probably take five or six days, about the same as driving, plus we'd have schlep luggage on and off the trains and back and forth in cabs to/from hotels. I'd never do it.

But along with eliminating dining service, it does seem to fit right in with the goal of Anderson, Gardner et al to do away with everything that makes long-distance trains attractive as a travel option. I think they'd be hesitant about eliminating sleeper cars, though, because they actually do count on getting a good chunk of revenue from those.

 

[Asher]

Indeed they do! Best way to travel, yes even better than Amtrak!



But you can take an overnight train from Scotland to London and connect to the Eurostar that morning. No need to overnight in London.

I’ve thought about that a lot. I think it’s great if you’ve been there done that. I haven’t, don’t want to miss anything.

 

[jis]

There's a vast difference between having a train stop in a city for 8-10 hours just to have everything run in daylight, and having connection points where people can transfer between trains same-day, many of which have multiple daily connection options available. Even Chicago is set up for long distance trains to not have overnight layovers between many of the most common city pairs, especially pre-COVID.

Indeed Chicago is explicitly designed for same day connection, and Amtrak bends over backwards to adjust schedules of LD trains arrivals and departures into/from Chicago to ensure same day connection as much as possible, sometimes to the detriment of some scheduled times at other places.

In the Amtrak system New Orleans is the only location that I can think of where most connections are overnight, But it works out that way mostly to keep connections in Los Angeles, Chicago and New York/Washington DC same day.

 

[TinCan782]

Or, a combination of rail and air...

From the National Air and Space Museum

 

[jis]

Or, a combination of rail and air...

From the National Air and Space Museum

Some could argue that this was the beginning of the end of Luxurious LD trains.

 

[Qapla]

If I'm traveling with luggage I would hate to have to keep putting my luggage on and off the train each night and having to lug it to a motel room somewhere just to have to lug it back to the train the next morning

 

[SanDiegan]

Is it possible, given the distances between larger cities, to devise a train system something like this... Folk get on one train in the morning, travel all day, with appropriate intermediate station stops, and arrive somewhere to spend the night in a hotel. The train set can return to the original city next day providing the oposite service.
The passenger boards another train next morning, and travels onward again, repeating untill arriving at their destination.
No need for elaborate meal arrangements, nor sleeping cars...
Overall, the individal's journey will take longer, as one is not travelling at night, but it seems to offer a sensible alternative to silly sleeper car prices, and yeuky food? Are city pairs just too near or too far apart to make this workable?

The United States is a very large country. Trains already take too long for most people, even without stopping overnight. Even in Europe, which has fast trains, overnight trains are making a bit of a comeback and the food looks better than what Amtrak is now serving.

 

[nti1094]

Is it possible, given the distances between larger cities, to devise a train system something like this... Folk get on one train in the morning, travel all day, with appropriate intermediate station stops, and arrive somewhere to spend the night in a hotel. The train set can return to the original city next day providing the oposite service.
The passenger boards another train next morning, and travels onward again, repeating untill arriving at their destination.
No need for elaborate meal arrangements, nor sleeping cars...
Overall, the individal's journey will take longer, as one is not travelling at night, but it seems to offer a sensible alternative to silly sleeper car prices, and yeuky food? Are city pairs just too near or too far apart to make this workable?

That sounds exhausting. Plus I love sleeping a few hours and waking up hundreds of miles and a state or two further on my trip.

 

[Asher]

It reminds me of flying El Cheapo Air, changing planes 4 times to make a flight from LAX to The East Coast. 5 hrs. Flight time, 16 hrs. Trip time.

 

[west point]

What is unknown is what demand is there going to be for Amtrak travel once restrictions are loosen. There is a lot of potential pent up demand. Cruise bookings for 2022 are way up for times that far in the future. Is Amtrak going to be swamped or is demand to fall. I have no idea.

 

[neroden]

Is it possible, given the distances between larger cities, to devise a train system something like this... Folk get on one train in the morning, travel all day, with appropriate intermediate station stops, and arrive somewhere to spend the night in a hotel. The train set can return to the original city next day providing the oposite service.
The passenger boards another train next morning, and travels onward again, repeating untill arriving at their destination.
No need for elaborate meal arrangements, nor sleeping cars...
Overall, the individal's journey will take longer, as one is not travelling at night, but it seems to offer a sensible alternative to silly sleeper car prices, and yeuky food? Are city pairs just too near or too far apart to make this workable?

Nope.

So, the deal is this: the train's advantage is that it's faster than driving. By not running overnight, on longer routes, you give up that advantage. An overnight trip from NY to Chicago ("get on in the evening, get off in the morning") is competitive with the two-day drive. It's even competitive with the flight, which takes 4 hours door-to-door due to the airport locations.

A two-day train trip? Not really competitive with anything and nobody would take it.

This is, to be polite, a very stupid idea.

 

[20th Century Rider]

The biggest problem (as others have stated) is that it causes huge headaches for certain intermediate markets. A lot of passengers don't travel end-to-end, but probably travel through an intermediate market or two. As someone who (before moving) would travel semi-regularly from St. Cloud to Winona, a break in MSP would make that trip unworkable and have pushed me to take the car. LD train service works by having tons of intermediate markets that can be done on the same train, and breaking up that train would sever the practicality of many of those intermediate markets.

Well said... which mandates the issue of daily service. And! On some sectors of that LD line... implementation of additional service... such as the ski train out of Denver hooking up with CZ... and the once time ski train from SEA to Leavenworth. Perhaps an additional train added on certain high volume sectors such as between MSP and CHI. Additional daily service between CHI and IND. Etc.

More frequency encourages more ridership because patrons can better manage into their schedules.

 

[railiner]

What is unknown is what demand is there going to be for Amtrak travel once restrictions are loosen. There is a lot of potential pent up demand. Cruise bookings for 2022 are way up for times that far in the future. Is Amtrak going to be swamped or is demand to fall. I have no idea.

Indeed. Maybe Amtrak should take a page out of Norwegian Cruise Line Holdings book, and accept reservations two years ahead? That is how they are able to pay their bills until they resume service. In their case, pent up demand is so high, that their Oceania brand sold out a full around the world cruise in only one day! I can imagine trains like the CZ or CS would do well for peak period sleeper travel. The 'Silver's' would, too.

While Amtrak is not as dependent on future bookings to sustain their day to day operations during the pandemic, such future demand might help their case in Congress to secure more funding for added service and more equipment...

 

[jloewen]

If I want to go to NY from JAX, I can catch the train and ride overnight in a coach seat. I would be on the train (sleeping) while the train takes me to my destination. The trip would be time well spent since I am using my daylight hours for what I want/need to do in NY instead of looking out the window of the train while using the time I had planned to use in NY because the train does not run while I sleep.

So, while travel time is a factor (and there are those of us who do not fly) doing so through the night is a perfectly acceptable use of this travel time so the daylight hours are spent at my destination - not making my trip longer than it has to be and forcing me to rent a room for the night when I can sleep on the train without additional cost.

Yes, when I had a Fulbright to Australia (and was younger!), I bought a bus pass. The company (Greyhound?) had a night train and a day train linking all the main cities (except Perth). I took the night train from Melbourne to Sydney, so I could spend the day doing stuff and learning stuff and meeting people in Sydney. Then back on the bus to sleep to the next stop, which was Brisbane. Then Townsville, etc. I learned that the SECOND night on the bus one can always sleep OK, if only owing to exhaustion because of lack of sleep the first night....

 

[TheCrescent]

Is it possible, given the distances between larger cities, to devise a train system something like this... Folk get on one train in the morning, travel all day, with appropriate intermediate station stops, and arrive somewhere to spend the night in a hotel. The train set can return to the original city next day providing the oposite service.
The passenger boards another train next morning, and travels onward again, repeating untill arriving at their destination.
No need for elaborate meal arrangements, nor sleeping cars...
Overall, the individal's journey will take longer, as one is not travelling at night, but it seems to offer a sensible alternative to silly sleeper car prices, and yeuky food? Are city pairs just too near or too far apart to make this workable?

I pay "silly sleeping car prices" because I will not take a long trip in coach, so if sleeping cars aren't available, I won't take trips on Amtrak other than very short day trips. So you'd lose me as a customer.

The sleeping car prices one some routes, such as the Crescent, are pretty high, yet pre-Covid, sleeping cars were often sold out, indicating that there is demand for sleeping car space even at high prices, which hopefully indicates that sleeping car space can be more profitable for Amtrak (or less money-losing) than coach space. Why get rid of that?

 

[Skyline]

The Skeena works because it is mostly a tourist-populated train.

There are probably routes in the US where the same thing could exist, maybe prosper. The key would be heavy promotion as a tourist excursion, careful choice of the intermediate stopover cities and hotel/dining availability (both cities and venues need to be fabulous enough to attract the tourists!), and decent food served on board during the daytime hours the trains are making miles.

But as basic transportation? Others here have described the folly well.

 

[Deni]

As someone who has enjoyed tens of thousands LD Amtrak miles, I am probably already seen as needing psychiatric help...
If I travel from Scotland to London, it seems fine to expect to spend the night in London, then board the Eurostar to Paris the next morning. I dont expect a through train. Admittedly, those folk who want to travel from Luton to Gatwick across London will have dozens of other trains to cater for their needs also...

But you do also have the option of a sleeper from Scotland to catch the Eurostar in the morning. I've done both myself and prefer the sleeper rather than a hotel stay in London.