Do we need "Long Distance " trains?
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jis
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My thoughts on your thread premise is this: I think it’s fine for a tourist line, but not for real transportation.
I also think that eliminating onboard amenities - even basic ones - turns a train ride into a bus ride.
But I think that pretty much sums up the feedback you’ve gotten so far. So mine’s not really any different.
I think that the experience of the airline industry has shown all transportation providers that on-board amenities are not necessary to run a successful transportation service. Yeah, maybe on some longer trips you might need to serve up some food to keep the masses from rioting due to low blood sugar, but you really don't have to go out of your way to make it a culinary experience. And for everyone, "I'm never going to ride again until white-glove service and gourmet food are restored," there are many more who say, "just get me there safely on time at a competitive price."
Even without amenities, an Amtrak ride is superior to a bus ride. The only advantage of flying is that it's faster than anything else, so it's very easy to endure a few hours of misery in exchange for being able to travel coast to coast in 5-6 hours. The only other alternative is to drive it yourself, if you can afford to own a car, and if you're in good enough physical shape to drive. There are absolutely no amenities in your car, except maybe heat, air conditioning, and the sound system, but, of course, you can find all you want by the side of the road. Of course, you'll have to pull over and slow your trip in order to sample any of those amenities, but you can't have everything.
Even without amenities, an Amtrak ride is superior to a bus ride. The only advantage of flying is that it's faster than anything else, so it's very easy to endure a few hours of misery in exchange for being able to travel coast to coast in 5-6 hours. The only other alternative is to drive it yourself, if you can afford to own a car, and if you're in good enough physical shape to drive. There are absolutely no amenities in your car, except maybe heat, air conditioning, and the sound system, but, of course, you can find all you want by the side of the road. Of course, you'll have to pull over and slow your trip in order to sample any of those amenities, but you can't have everything.
Depends on what you call amenities. If Amtrak crams more and more people onboard (ala buses and airlines) and eliminates all onboard food (ala buses and airlines) - it’s just a bus as far as I’m concerned. Sure - you can get up and walk around - but where to? Without a lounge you are just walking up and down the Coach aisles.
I might put up with that on a 15-30 minute commuter ride, but not on anything longer than that.
I need decent seats and at least a lounge/cafe car if I’m going to be on Amtrak for any length of time. For an overnight - I need a sleeper. Anything approaching 24 hours really needs a diner.
But maybe that’s just me. Call me an elitist.
Devil's Advocate
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How would you feel if a sleeper-only customer with a history of mocking coach class issues suggested abandoning all coach service? Would you consider that a legitimate suggestion or an unprovoked attack on coach customers? The last thing we need is more coach vs sleeper culture war nonsense and I thought we had moved past that already.
If I randomly suggested we abandon sleeper service on the Eagle or Sunset it would be a terrible idea but at least I would be sacrificing services I personally use and would have to live without in the future. When people volunteer to give away service that has little or no impact on their own needs I see no problem in pointing out the disconnect.
Exvalley
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The issue I have is that in part of your post you attempted to negate an opinion based on the author's country of residence. Here is what you said:
If someone prefers not to ride in a sleeper, I am very interested in why they do not believe in the utility of a sleeper. I may not agree with them at the end of the day, but I would never suggest that their opinion is invalid for the sole reason that they prefer, and therefore utilize, something else. Arbitrary purity tests such as that don't encourage thoughtful discussion. All they seek to do is to dismiss the person themself - rather than encouraging the perspectives of people with diverse backgrounds and opinions.
I think that the elimination of long distance trains is bad for a variety of reasons, but I am glad that we had something interested to think about and discuss.
But, hey. It's been a stressful time lately. We all get cranky, including me.
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20th Century Rider
Engineer
Amtrak seats are way more spacious and comfortable than on the bus... and another advantage is access to the lavatory... although maybe not as clean as one would desire.
That said, Amtrak is blocking seats during the pandemic... and after the pandemic it is reasonable to think the lounge cars and cafe car will be back again on rides that go beyond a few hours.
So... to me... rail travel is preferred as long as it goes where I want to go!
jis
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Indeed. US does not consider trains to be a legitimate means of long distance transport. We should not feed that mistaken idea with presumed solutions that only further establish it as a premise of planning.
It should be noted that the really old fashioned thing about the US is being firmly planted in the belief that a 900 mile journey must take 20 hours in the LD rail network, and nothing should be done abour reducing it to 10-12 hours. Even third world countries like India do not hold such views any more. The problem lies with the nation not having come to grips with efficient transportation as opposed to transportation no matter what the costs are in terms of environment and such.
20th Century Rider
Engineer
Agree with you 100%!
Overnight in a train vs overnight in a bus or a teeny coach seat in a plane ... offers more space and restroom access; of course a sleeper if one can afford it offers a slumber of a sleep! And save on a hotel bill at the same time!
caravanman
Engineer
My thought were simply from a modernising perspective, with the outlook that getting from A to B on a train was more important than preserving a class of travel that has been criticised by many AU'rs as very expensive of late. My thoughts were that running day trains from say, Chicago to Denver, Denver to Salt Lake City, and another from SLT to Emeryville might be a good option instead of the current arrangement. Not needing sleepers, or dedicated dining cars was a by product of the daytime service suggestion.
I have no issue at all with long distance trains, I much prefer the longer rides, and again with the sleepers, I travel in coach mostly because I can't afford sleepers, not because there is anything wrong with them.
It was meant to be a discussion item, I know what it feels like now to be in a minority in America.
I have no issue at all with long distance trains, I much prefer the longer rides, and again with the sleepers, I travel in coach mostly because I can't afford sleepers, not because there is anything wrong with them.
It was meant to be a discussion item, I know what it feels like now to be in a minority in America.
jis
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Not having Sleepers does no imply no night travel. In the heyday of LD travel in the US, the entire concept of "Chair Car" was invented here. There were Chair Car only luxury trains and milk runs ranging from the Santa Fe El Capitan to various minor route trains. IMHO, the fallacy in your argument is that it depends on the setting up of this false dichotomy and then leading yourself to the conclusion that there should be no night trains, thus removing one major advantage of trains over driving.
The Pioneer and the Desert Wind were originally introduced as Chair Car only trains and Sleepers were added later. So what we can certainly surmise is that the US has forgotten how to set up a usable network of cost effective trains, and has set itself up for failure with impossible goal of having overnight trains that must have Sleepers and Diners and bells and whistles and frills, and every possible Christmas tree ornament hung on it so that it becomes impossible to make it affordable. There I agree with you completely, but not on the proposed solution which panders to this idocy, by simply moving the luxury from the train to hotels at night, and denies those that can do without those luxuries otherwise convenient service.
Exvalley
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It's an interesting chicken and egg question.
Which is likely to get infrastructure funded? Running once-daily long distance trains or point-to-point trains a couple of times per day? If it is the latter, would it make sense to focus on that in the short term with the intent of adding sleeper service in the long term?
My gut tells me that the best answer has already been proposed in this thread - which is to do both.
Which is likely to get infrastructure funded? Running once-daily long distance trains or point-to-point trains a couple of times per day? If it is the latter, would it make sense to focus on that in the short term with the intent of adding sleeper service in the long term?
My gut tells me that the best answer has already been proposed in this thread - which is to do both.
sttom
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I guess cutting service is "modernization" these days. My question is how doing this would actually improve the usefulness of Amtrak as a form of transportation? On some routes, there aren't good places to terminate a train overnight. Not to mention what happens to people who need to make a trip to the other side of a terminating station? Adding day time services makes sense and I want them, but like basically everyone here, we want more service but not at the expense of what already exists.
Sleepers may just be a "class of travel", but it is important not only to tourists. Some people will use sleepers as a form of transportation. Which, as far as I'm concerned is just as valid of a use of public transportation as someone riding in coach. Not to mention the environmental benefit of having someone make an overnight trip on a train in a sleeper instead of them driving.
Mailliw
OBS Chief
What Amtrak really needs to do is introduce some kind of budget sleeper option in-between a coach seat and a private compartment such as couchettes, curtained beths, or a Slumbercoach like pod.
20th Century Rider
Engineer
The travel by day with hotel stop at night is great for a tourist train... but not for general rail travel... for several reasons.
1] On LD trains, travel continues during the night so that the journey isn't too excessively long in duration, and saves on the cost of that hotel stop en route.
2] A hotel night stop would add costs to the entirety of the trip in coach seating that approach sleeper compartment travel.
3] A passenger wanting to entrain 100 miles prior to the scheduled night stop, then continue the next day for another 50 miles of the train route... adds on a huge expense and time requirement to go just 150 miles.
Am I missing something??? This concept makes no sense to me except for the tourist train where all pax are traveling the entire route and want to spend time stopping and touring. The two North American examples being with the Rocky Mountaineer in Canada and the Denali Star Train in Alaska [see below.]
https://www.alaskatrain.com/routes/denali-star.html
https://www.rockymountaineer.com/
1] On LD trains, travel continues during the night so that the journey isn't too excessively long in duration, and saves on the cost of that hotel stop en route.
2] A hotel night stop would add costs to the entirety of the trip in coach seating that approach sleeper compartment travel.
3] A passenger wanting to entrain 100 miles prior to the scheduled night stop, then continue the next day for another 50 miles of the train route... adds on a huge expense and time requirement to go just 150 miles.
Am I missing something??? This concept makes no sense to me except for the tourist train where all pax are traveling the entire route and want to spend time stopping and touring. The two North American examples being with the Rocky Mountaineer in Canada and the Denali Star Train in Alaska [see below.]
https://www.alaskatrain.com/routes/denali-star.html
https://www.rockymountaineer.com/
20th Century Rider
Engineer
The railroads did have those slumber coaches which continued for a while when Amtrak took over passenger trains. Excellent idea to bring it back... and why not make sleeper service available to more folks???
https://www.train-museum.org/locomotives-rolling-stock/passenger-cars/slumbercoach-amtrak/
20th Century Rider
Engineer
Do bring on those opinions and ideas... diverse thinking from folks in diverse areas adds richness and perspectives that benefit the entire forum.
Likewise AU'ers should be accommodating and respectful for other opinions and still disagree with logical analysis.
Remembering those college debates I participated in long ago... after the most fierce battle with an opposing team, we all shook hands at the end... and the winners treated the losers to some beers amongst laughing and camaraderie.
What's wrong with that?
If you don't like the beer then don't drink it!
NEPATrainTraveler
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The idea of stopping overnight at a hotel en route and then continuing on the next morning would have appealed to me while I was having a rough time sleeping in coach during my 2018 LSL trip, but looking at the arguments against the OP's idea I could see why it wouldn't work out. I would ride sleeper if I could, but its not usually in my budget, so that is why I ride coach. Looking back, there are things I should have brought along that possibly could have made my coach trip better, such as taking Drammamine. I do wish there was an option like the slumbercoaches though.
fdaley
OBS Chief
Offering a miserable on-board experience works OK for airlines because, as you say, at least the misery is over in a matter of hours. I don't think the effort to export this standard of service to Amtrak is going to wind up being successful, because two or three days of misery is going to be unacceptable to a much larger share of travelers. "It's better than taking the bus" doesn't strike me as a very promising sales pitch for trips that require more than a few hours of travel.
I don't really like driving long distances, but with the current food offerings on Amtrak, driving is starting to look like a better option to me, at least for trips I used to take on the Lake Shore or Crescent. And if we want to take another family trip to the west coast, we can take the Canadian (assuming it resumes operation east of Winnipeg and that the border reopens). Or if we have to, we can fly. Or we can just stay home and let our west coast relatives come east, which they would certainly do by flying.
I don't need "white-glove service and gourmet food," which hasn't been offered on most U.S. trains in 50-plus years. But I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a restaurant-style meal of Applebee's or IHOP quality, which is what Amtrak was offering in its dining cars until the past couple of years. At least that would match the meal quality we'd get on any highway trip.
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crescent-zephyr
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How so? Actually I’d argue that Red Coach and Vonlane are far Superior to Amtrak corridor services.
Even Jefferson lines is just as comfortable as Amtrak corridor to me.
What flights are you all flying? Southwest, Delta, and AA have always provided me with good on-board experiences.
I usually fly first class but I usually travel in sleeper / bc on Amtrak.
fdaley
OBS Chief
Actually, my last flight was on USAir, so that gives you an idea of how long it's been. So perhaps I am overdue for giving it another try. But I really was very happy with train travel until the past couple of years.
20th Century Rider
Engineer
Exactly right on point.
Train travel is far lengthier than airline travel... with the potential for offering some excellent scenery viewing that encourages passengers to relax in an environment of a little more room and possibility to get up and stretch. Yes! Food and comfort service on rail travel is appropriate... and on LD... almost safe to say necessary.
As the old saying goes... what one pays needs to be on par of what one gets in terms of reasonable comfort, amenities, and food. Make no mistake... a restaurant on the rails... or cafe car, or lounge of some sort is part of what one should expect on LD rail travel.
I would like to repeat that again because it is so logical and appropriate! Make no mistake... a restaurant on the rails... or cafe car, or lounge of some sort is part of what one should expect on LD rail travel.
caravanman
Engineer
I guess I am looking at things from too European a perspective. We don't have just one train every day, or every two days, but a good choice of trains between major cities, so the idea of one "through, long distance" train is not so important, but a few do exist.
All of my Amtrak rides have been pretty much end to end on all the routes, so I was thinking of how to replicate my long distance trips with shorter segments, and did not take into consideration the issues of folk wanting to travel from one side of an overnight halt to the other. I had forgotten that only one train was available, instead of many options, as I am familiar with in Europe.
Having better food service on the existing Amtrak L.D. network is everyone's hope, some sort of slimmed down cafe car offerings would be adequate for a day time train for me.
As I think we all agree, more trains in general, long distance and city pairs, would be ideal.
My question about L.D. trains, city pair distances, etc has been answered emphaticaly, so thank you all for your contributions.
All of my Amtrak rides have been pretty much end to end on all the routes, so I was thinking of how to replicate my long distance trips with shorter segments, and did not take into consideration the issues of folk wanting to travel from one side of an overnight halt to the other. I had forgotten that only one train was available, instead of many options, as I am familiar with in Europe.
Having better food service on the existing Amtrak L.D. network is everyone's hope, some sort of slimmed down cafe car offerings would be adequate for a day time train for me.
As I think we all agree, more trains in general, long distance and city pairs, would be ideal.
My question about L.D. trains, city pair distances, etc has been answered emphaticaly, so thank you all for your contributions.
With me it’s always, so much to see and do, so little time.
