Does Amtrak still ship mail?

[Andy]

I know not too long ago Amtrak still had mail cars and shipped US Mail. Do they still do that on any route?

 

[PRR 60]

I know not too long ago Amtrak still had mail cars and shipped US Mail. Do they still do that on any route?

No. The contract with the USPS for hauling bulk mail was cancelled by Amtrak in 2004.

 

[Philzy]

I know not too long ago Amtrak still had mail cars and shipped US Mail. Do they still do that on any route?

No. The contract with the USPS for hauling bulk mail was cancelled by Amtrak in 2004.

Fine, I'll bite.

I've wondered about this for some time... being that Amtrak could use about every penny it could get - it surprised me that it was dropped. Was the cost of maintaining the cars vs the income from maintaining the cars hauling mail not enough? Anyone know the story behind it or a link to somewhere one could read up on it. I'm guessing this may have been discussed previously?

Being that a number of airlines dropped their mail contracts between 2002-2005, and Fedex picked up the slack (charging a hefty contract being they were the only one submitting a RFP) - wouldn't this be an ideal time to revisit this being we now have an political administration that is pro-rail?

I seriously would love to hear some of ya'lls passionate opinions on this... I think there will be quite a few of them...

 

[amtrakwolverine]

amtrak didn't drop the contract. the USPS cancelled it.

 

[Anthony]

amtrak didn't drop the contract. the USPS cancelled it.

This seems to conflict with a post in this thread. Who's right?

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?showtopic=8767

 

[Shanghai]

I just saw an Amtrak car yesterday at NYP with U.S. Mail sign painted on it.

I thought then the mail was no longer carried by Amtrak.

 

[Philzy]

thanks for the link Anthony, not sure which one is right...

regardless I would think this would be a plumb good time to pick up some mail on the trains...

 

[amtrakwolverine]

i think what happend was amtrak wanted too much money and so the post office said were dropping our contract with you.

Amtrak hauled mail for the United States Postal Service and time-sensitive freight, but discontinued these services in October 2004 when the contract was lost.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

I just saw an Amtrak car yesterday at NYP with U.S. Mail sign painted on it.I thought then the mail was no longer carried by Amtrak.

All a label like that means is that at some point in the car's life, it was used for hauling U S Mail. In some cases, the interior configuration of a car seems to change without the label on the outside being repainted.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

I've wondered about this for some time... being that Amtrak could use about every penny it could get - it surprised me that it was dropped. Was the cost of maintaining the cars vs the income from maintaining the cars hauling mail not enough? Anyone know the story behind it or a link to somewhere one could read up on it. I'm guessing this may have been discussed previously?

One of the other concerns that has been brought up is time spent switching mail cars into and out of passenger trains, if entire carloads of mail are being shipped bulk.

I do think that if Amtrak were better set up for something vaguely the size of air cargo containers, and could load and unload those quickly, that might work better.

Being that a number of airlines dropped their mail contracts between 2002-2005, and Fedex picked up the slack (charging a hefty contract being they were the only one submitting a RFP) - wouldn't this be an ideal time to revisit this being we now have an political administration that is pro-rail?

If we had a national high speed rail network, I'd get more enthusiastic about having some effort put into sending a lot more mail by rail.

 

[Dutchrailnut]

i think what happend was amtrak wanted too much money and so the post office said were dropping our contract with you.

Amtrak hauled mail for the United States Postal Service and time-sensitive freight, but discontinued these services in October 2004 when the contract was lost.

The USPS reorganized and closed several mail distribution centers which were essential to Amtrak mail service.

rendering the Amtrak Mail service absolete.

USPS claimed the ontime performance of trucks was much better, nation wide , only place mail could be moved faster was the NEC but it was not worth it to keep the distribution centers open.

 

[wayman]

i think what happend was amtrak wanted too much money and so the post office said were dropping our contract with you.

Amtrak hauled mail for the United States Postal Service and time-sensitive freight, but discontinued these services in October 2004 when the contract was lost.

The USPS reorganized and closed several mail distribution centers which were essential to Amtrak mail service.

rendering the Amtrak Mail service absolete.

USPS claimed the ontime performance of trucks was much better, nation wide , only place mail could be moved faster was the NEC but it was not worth it to keep the distribution centers open.

For instance, Philadelphia's distribution center is being moved from adjacent to 30th St Station to ... the airport. The historic post office building, sort of a twin to the station, has been sold to the University of Pennsylvania (it has protected historic status, so it will not be changed from the outside), and for the next several years is being leased back to the USPS while the transition between facilities takes place.

 

[Philzy]

i think what happend was amtrak wanted too much money and so the post office said were dropping our contract with you.

Amtrak hauled mail for the United States Postal Service and time-sensitive freight, but discontinued these services in October 2004 when the contract was lost.

The USPS reorganized and closed several mail distribution centers which were essential to Amtrak mail service.

rendering the Amtrak Mail service absolete.

USPS claimed the ontime performance of trucks was much better, nation wide , only place mail could be moved faster was the NEC but it was not worth it to keep the distribution centers open.

For instance, Philadelphia's distribution center is being moved from adjacent to 30th St Station to ... the airport. The historic post office building, sort of a twin to the station, has been sold to the University of Pennsylvania (it has protected historic status, so it will not be changed from the outside), and for the next several years is being leased back to the USPS while the transition between facilities takes place.

Sadly, this is one of those places where if the Gobama Administration had a keener eye, they would realize that by pushing the USPS to again use Amtrak for Mail delivery that it would create jobs. They've closed mail centers. It would take some money granted to reopen them, but wouldn't it create jobs to do this? And then jobs to staff these places, and jobs to do said duties of mail people in a distro center?

I think we've seen a little realization that Amtrak and a national rail system in general are things that can be used to create new jobs, especially when times are tight. My weekend alone Amtrak saved the day. I flew Virgin America from SFO-SEA and it's cheaper for me take Amtrak from SAC to the bay and hop the BART round trip than it is to drive to the bay OR drive to the Sacramento airport (and buy a plane ticket from) park my car there for the weekend. granted my Amtrak trip to the bay wasn't all that great but I'll make a whole nother thread on that... my point being reopening the distro centers now might again be a viable option... anyone else agree with me?

 

[Green Maned Lion]

The other reason this was dropped would probably be best illustrated by the following trains: Lake Country Limited, Kentucky Cardinal, Three Rivers, Pennsylvanian, and the never ran Skyline Connection. The trains I'm listing were primarily freight trains. Especially the Kentucky Cardinal which often ran without passenger cars, which frequently got bad ordered and not replaced if there were no passengers disembarking in Kentucky.

Amtrak stopped running freight trains and carrying practically anything that could be called freight, because due to trains like that their relationship with the freight roads were at a all-time low. Gunn was convinced, and with some justification, that the only way to get back the good will of the Freight roads, and convince them that Amtrak was not out to take business from them, was to drop them entirely.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

For instance, Philadelphia's distribution center is being moved from adjacent to 30th St Station to ... the airport.

While Amtrak doesn't normally serve the Philadelphia airport directly, there is SEPTA service to the airport. How close is the USPS distribution center at the Philadelphia airport to the tracks?

USPS still has a major presence at Boston South Station, although that may be getting moved to make room for two more surface platform tracks.

 

[volkris]

Sadly, this is one of those places where if the Gobama Administration had a keener eye, they would realize that by pushing the USPS to again use Amtrak for Mail delivery that it would create jobs. They've closed mail centers. It would take some money granted to reopen them, but wouldn't it create jobs to do this? And then jobs to staff these places, and jobs to do said duties of mail people in a distro center?

Jobs aren't free, even for a magic-wand government. These distribution centers were closed because there were more efficient alternatives. If we're talking about returning to less efficient methods for the sake of creating jobs... well, make work programs rigthfully have a negative connotation in this country.

In short, let's not make it harder for the USPS to do its job, more expensive for customers to ship their mail, and harder for both to deal with increasing costs for the sake of making a few jobs. It amounts to hidden, obligatory, and ineffective charity.

 

[PRR 60]

amtrak didn't drop the contract. the USPS cancelled it.

Absolutely not. In fact the USPS was furious with Amtrak, and in particular with then Amtrak CEO David Gunn, for his unilateral and extremely short notice cancelling of the contract (a typical Gunn MO).

Mail and Express was always a part of the Amtrak revenue mix, but under Gunn's predecessor, George Warrington, that revenue was targeted as a way to help subsidize the money-losing passenger service. Warrington greatly expanded the marketing of Amtrak's handling of mail and express shipments. Some Amtrak passengers trains looked more like freight trains with a couple of passenger cars. Trains like the Southwest Chief would leave Chicago Union Station, then sit for an hour while express and mail cars were added.

When Gunn came in, he felt that the revenue derived from the mail and express business was not worth the disruption of the passenger service. He dropped it all (except for a refrigerated fruit transport service that he was forced to continue for a while under threat of a law suit). The USPS was shocked by the move. Amtrak had handled bulk mail transport for years with little disruption to Amtrak passenger services. But Gunn was adamant - it was all going to go. And it did.

NARP Hot Line News 9-3-2004

 

[Upstate]

Sadly, this is one of those places where if the Gobama Administration had a keener eye, they would realize that by pushing the USPS to again use Amtrak for Mail delivery that it would create jobs. They've closed mail centers. It would take some money granted to reopen them, but wouldn't it create jobs to do this? And then jobs to staff these places, and jobs to do said duties of mail people in a distro center?

And once you "create" the jobs at Amtrak to haul the mail what are those people who currently haul the mail going to do. Moving the contract back to Amtrak is just moving jobs, not creating them. The folks who are moving the mail now (FedEx?) are using American workers to do the job so its not like they are taking anything away from the job situation.

 

[Andy]

For instance, Philadelphia's distribution center is being moved from adjacent to 30th St Station to ... the airport.

While Amtrak doesn't normally serve the Philadelphia airport directly, there is SEPTA service to the airport. How close is the USPS distribution center at the Philadelphia airport to the tracks?

USPS still has a major presence at Boston South Station, although that may be getting moved to make room for two more surface platform tracks.

The main Boston sorting facility is literally right next to the train platforms. I am surprised that, given the high volume of mail between Boston and New York and Washington, the NEC is not used at all for passage of mail. And I know there were talks about adding two more tracks to South Station, but the USPS facility is giant and they would lose a ton of space and building if new tracks were added, not to mention it would cost oodles of money -- I very much doubt that will happen any time soon.

 

[sunchaser]

Sadly, this is one of those places where if the Gobama Administration had a keener eye, they would realize that by pushing the USPS to again use Amtrak for Mail delivery that it would create jobs. They've closed mail centers. It would take some money granted to reopen them, but wouldn't it create jobs to do this? And then jobs to staff these places, and jobs to do said duties of mail people in a distro center?

And once you "create" the jobs at Amtrak to haul the mail what are those people who currently haul the mail going to do. Moving the contract back to Amtrak is just moving jobs, not creating them. The folks who are moving the mail now (FedEx?) are using American workers to do the job so its not like they are taking anything away from the job situation.

I thought USPS shipped the mail by air themselves? And USPS is having financial troubles. (for a long time)

If FedEx is doing it, they are having financial issues, just like the airlines. They have been talking bankruptcy.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Sadly, this is one of those places where if the Gobama Administration had a keener eye, they would realize that by pushing the USPS to again use Amtrak for Mail delivery that it would create jobs. They've closed mail centers. It would take some money granted to reopen them, but wouldn't it create jobs to do this? And then jobs to staff these places, and jobs to do said duties of mail people in a distro center?

And once you "create" the jobs at Amtrak to haul the mail what are those people who currently haul the mail going to do. Moving the contract back to Amtrak is just moving jobs, not creating them. The folks who are moving the mail now (FedEx?) are using American workers to do the job so its not like they are taking anything away from the job situation.

I thought USPS shipped the mail by air themselves? And USPS is having financial troubles. (for a long time)

If FedEx is doing it, they are having financial issues, just like the airlines. They have been talking bankruptcy.

The problem is that people want their mail faster faster faster-- both FedEx and USPS Priority Mail offer 2-3 business day promises on shipments. You can rarely do that on a train unless the two localities are close together. On the other hand, USPS Parcel Post and Media Mail (2-9 BDs) is more probable, along with First Class mail (letters).

 

[transit54]

Sadly, this is one of those places where if the Gobama Administration had a keener eye, they would realize that by pushing the USPS to again use Amtrak for Mail delivery that it would create jobs. They've closed mail centers. It would take some money granted to reopen them, but wouldn't it create jobs to do this? And then jobs to staff these places, and jobs to do said duties of mail people in a distro center?

And once you "create" the jobs at Amtrak to haul the mail what are those people who currently haul the mail going to do. Moving the contract back to Amtrak is just moving jobs, not creating them. The folks who are moving the mail now (FedEx?) are using American workers to do the job so its not like they are taking anything away from the job situation.

I thought USPS shipped the mail by air themselves? And USPS is having financial troubles. (for a long time)

If FedEx is doing it, they are having financial issues, just like the airlines. They have been talking bankruptcy.

The problem is that people want their mail faster faster faster-- both FedEx and USPS Priority Mail offer 2-3 business day promises on shipments. You can rarely do that on a train unless the two localities are close together. On the other hand, USPS Parcel Post and Media Mail (2-9 BDs) is more probable, along with First Class mail (letters).

USPS, to my knowledge, has never shipped their own mail any sizable distance. About 10-20 years ago there were a fleet of USPS branded planes, but they were actually operated by an independent company (Ryan International) who later lost out to FedEx. The plane branding was just part of the contract.

Basically, first class mail is packaged in trays and carried primarily by passenger airliners (or is trucked for shorter distances). This has really been the primary way to carry long-haul FCM since FCM has been around. By definition, FCM cannot be more than 13 oz, and I believe that parcel-type FCM cannot be carried on passenger airliners post-9/11 but I could be wrong about that. Priority Mail and Express Mail is carried by whatever cargo airline the USPS contracts with, which is currently FedEx.

Parcel post and Media Mail are trucked, and I don't much about that, but I know most of it is contracted out to various trucking companies. If Amtrak was to ever get back into carrying mail, it would undoubtedly be FCM, just like the airlines handle. FCM is easily handled with all other baggage on passenger airliners and I see no reason why this couldn't be the same for trains. It's basically used as filler in the baggage compartments. I don't think Amtrak should ever get into hauling parcel post or anything very cargo related, but I can see an opportunity for short to medium distance (i.e. NY to Chicago, Boston to DC, NYC to FL, etc) hauls if there is routinely excess space in baggage cars.

Edit: Added name of company with USPS planes

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Parcel post and Media Mail are trucked, and I don't much about that, but I know most of it is contracted out to various trucking companies. If Amtrak was to ever get back into carrying mail, it would undoubtedly be FCM, just like the airlines handle. FCM is easily handled with all other baggage on passenger airliners and I see no reason why this couldn't be the same for trains. It's basically used as filler in the baggage compartments. I don't think Amtrak should ever get into hauling parcel post or anything very cargo related, but I can see an opportunity for short to medium distance (i.e. NY to Chicago, Boston to DC, NYC to FL, etc) hauls if there is routinely excess space in baggage cars.

Right on all counts.

And I'm surprised that teh Airlines, which have become so preoccupied with weight/fuel costs haven't differed to Amtrak yet.

 

[transit54]

Parcel post and Media Mail are trucked, and I don't much about that, but I know most of it is contracted out to various trucking companies. If Amtrak was to ever get back into carrying mail, it would undoubtedly be FCM, just like the airlines handle. FCM is easily handled with all other baggage on passenger airliners and I see no reason why this couldn't be the same for trains. It's basically used as filler in the baggage compartments. I don't think Amtrak should ever get into hauling parcel post or anything very cargo related, but I can see an opportunity for short to medium distance (i.e. NY to Chicago, Boston to DC, NYC to FL, etc) hauls if there is routinely excess space in baggage cars.

Right on all counts.

And I'm surprised that teh Airlines, which have become so preoccupied with weight/fuel costs haven't differed to Amtrak yet.

When I worked for JetBlue, I was told that the airline was bringing in a sizable amount of money on mail and cargo contracts, which includes their new cargo program. I don't know what percentage of that was mail, and we didn't handle any mail/cargo where I worked. I believe one quarter I heard that mail and cargo revenue helped push the company into profitability for that quarter. So I don't think airlines are anxious to give up that revenue at all.

Two years ago, when I was still in college, I took an economics of transportation course. We looked at, among many other things, the start of the airline industry in the US, and mail contracts were offered to airlines almost as an explicit subsidy to assist the growth of such carriers. Of course now that's no longer the case, but mail contracts do represent a nice, reliable stream of income for many air carriers.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Parcel post and Media Mail are trucked, and I don't much about that, but I know most of it is contracted out to various trucking companies. If Amtrak was to ever get back into carrying mail, it would undoubtedly be FCM, just like the airlines handle. FCM is easily handled with all other baggage on passenger airliners and I see no reason why this couldn't be the same for trains. It's basically used as filler in the baggage compartments. I don't think Amtrak should ever get into hauling parcel post or anything very cargo related, but I can see an opportunity for short to medium distance (i.e. NY to Chicago, Boston to DC, NYC to FL, etc) hauls if there is routinely excess space in baggage cars.

Right on all counts.

And I'm surprised that teh Airlines, which have become so preoccupied with weight/fuel costs haven't differed to Amtrak yet.

When I worked for JetBlue, I was told that the airline was bringing in a sizable amount of money on mail and cargo contracts, which includes their new cargo program. I don't know what percentage of that was mail, and we didn't handle any mail/cargo where I worked. I believe one quarter I heard that mail and cargo revenue helped push the company into profitability for that quarter. So I don't think airlines are anxious to give up that revenue at all.

Two years ago, when I was still in college, I took an economics of transportation course. We looked at, among many other things, the start of the airline industry in the US, and mail contracts were offered to airlines almost as an explicit subsidy to assist the growth of such carriers. Of course now that's no longer the case, but mail contracts do represent a nice, reliable stream of income for many air carriers.

In that case then why doesn't Amtrak take the mail off the hands of the USPS hired trucks? It has got to be cheaper to put a mail car and fill it on the EB and drop off/pick up bags of mail in all those middle-of-nowhere towns than it does to have daily trucks running back and forth.

And the NEC too. Why can't they throw on a mail car on to a few select regionals and deliver mail all up and down the corridor? That should be both faster and cheaper than trucking it.

My contention here is that-- in order for the airlines to turn a profit on this contract, the ailing USPS has be throwing a lot of money at them. Amtrak could probably haul mail in certain areas for less.