Dunkirk NY bid for Amtrak Station

[jis]

Dunkirk NY is located half way between Buffalo NY and Erie PA. In addition to serving Dunkirk, it is close to SUNY Fredonia. The City Council is exploring the possibility of getting an Amtrak stop. If it happens, it would be a stop on the Lake Shore Limited and any future Regional service on the Water Level Route between Buffalo and Cleveland. And of course CSX will throw a hissy fit about it all.

https://www.post-journal.com/news/local-news/2022/02/council-approves-study-for-amtrak-stop/

 

[Eric S]

My first thought was "wasn't this suggested or considered quite a few years ago?" and, sure enough, the article quotes someone as saying it was looked at 21 years ago.

 

[Amtrak25]

I remember quite clearly the whole proceess around 1998, and visited there at the time there was a big push for it. Conrail had started to clear out the old passenger station, but the CSX takeover stopped the whole thing. There was an island platform, a chunk of it is still there, which CSX would want for a passenger station so they can use either track. ADA would be very expensive if forced to go with high level platform and gauntlet track.

Westfield also wants a stop, and they are near Chautauqua Institute.

Dunkirk's problem is since Greyhound killed the US20 locals nearly 40 years ago, there is no access there from the west.
The Dunkirk Chamber of Commerce felt that inhibits doctors/lawyers/accountants from wanting to settle there with such poor transportation options. Coach USA Erie bus service only goes to Jamestown, and Blue Bird killed Jamestown - Erie service in the 1980's.

 

[zephyr17]

They will have to go high level and a new platform. Old, non-compliant platforms are only grandfathered in when they have been in continuous use. This one has clearly not been in continuous use.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Dunkirk and Fredonia area has been talk about for quite sometime. Not sure how a study is going to help, might be better to hire a lobbyist.

 

[Amtrak25]

They will need to dip into that $66 Billion to build an ADA station, either with gauntlet track or a 3rd track. If the Lake Shore Ltd is the only service, I don't think it will happen.

ESPA was pushing for a Lyons station in the 1980's, which went nowhere. Batavia lasted until the eve of Amtrak, but no one has tried to restore it.

 

[Anthony V]

They will have to go high level and a new platform. Old, non-compliant platforms are only grandfathered in when they have been in continuous use. This one has clearly not been in continuous use.

Why can't they use the wheelchair lift on the train to fulfill the ADA requirements?

 

[jis]

Restoring Batavia would make a lot of sense I think. But, any effective station will have to be similar in track layout to the new Rochester station, or two platforms on loops outside the two main tracks. They will cost quite a bit at the rate things go these days

Cost can be reduced considerably by doing a single face platform in a middle loop single track

 

[Amtrak25]

Vestigial remains of old station:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/D...f1a5af47!8m2!3d42.4795019!4d-79.3339324?hl=en
They may look at other places to put it. At street level, it is quite ugly and unappealing.

 

[zephyr17]

Why can't they use the wheelchair lift on the train to fulfill the ADA requirements?

Not how the law/regulations read.

 

[glensfallsse]

This would be very convenient for me since I have family in the Dunkirk area. But, is it really a good use of millions of dollars for the handful of people who would get on and off every day? I'm not so sure. And every time you add a stop to a train like the LSL, you slow it down. Probably more than one stop if there are sleeper customers, right?

 

[BlackDiamond]

Cost can be reduced considerably by doing a single face platform in a middle loop single track

Looks like that would work here as there are already 3 tracks.
Would a mini high satisfy ADA or does it now have to be full length floor level platforms? A number of stations on the Downeaster are mini highs, Freeport for example. Of course they were built a few years ago and may be grandfathered.

 

[Amtrak25]

Looks like that would work here as there are already 3 tracks.
Would a mini high satisfy ADA or does it now have to be full length floor level platforms? A number of stations on the Downeaster are mini highs, Freeport for example. Of course they were built a few years ago and may be grandfathered.

I don't know for sure, but even if a mini high level, freight trains could not get by unless they have flip up threshold plates, or gauntlet track is built, which railroads hate. They mean facing switch points, which are a risk factor for freight trains picking switches and derailing.

When the NJT West Trenton line service was a hot topic over 20 years ago, ADA made the cost prohibitive, plus CSX demanded island platforms so that any train can be routed on either track.

I also don't know what the situation is with that 3rd track past Dunkirk station.

 

[jis]

Looks like that would work here as there are already 3 tracks.
Would a mini high satisfy ADA or does it now have to be full length floor level platforms? A number of stations on the Downeaster are mini highs, Freeport for example. Of course they were built a few years ago and may be grandfathered.

Frankly, the only practical thing to do is to move the single main one track space over and build a singe track loop between it and the two other mains with space on one side for a single face platform which is reached via a tunnel fro the headhouse. Reasonable stations cost money. Many rural stations in the US are not reasonable stations but just one step above a stop in the middle of a field.

 

[bms]

This would be very convenient for me since I have family in the Dunkirk area. But, is it really a good use of millions of dollars for the handful of people who would get on and off every day? I'm not so sure. And every time you add a stop to a train like the LSL, you slow it down. Probably more than one stop if there are sleeper customers, right?

Dunkirk would be the closest stop to the nearby Amish community, so it might generate more traffic than the average town of 12,000 people. But the westbound calling time for the LSL would be pretty bad - especially for a town that size which would probably have zero connections to transit at that hour, not even an Uber or Lyft.

 

[jis]

There is dire need for a daytime Buffalo - Cleveland service. Perhaps a reroute of one of the West of Albany Empire services from NFL to Cleveland, or an entirely new train. Though I am not holding my breath on that one yet.

 

[zephyr17]

There is dire need for a daytime Buffalo - Cleveland service. Perhaps a reroute of one of the West of Albany Empire services from NFL to Cleveland, or an entirely new train. Though I am not holding my breath on that one yet.

That makes all sorts of sense. But there is the problem of getting Ohio to pay for it...

 

[jis]

If only the PRIIA 750 mile thing was not there, Cleveland or Toledo would be a Palmetto-like train from New York. It is probably easier to service and turn a train in Toledo today than in Cleveland.

 

[Amtrak25]

Before CTC and when the main was 4 tracks, it looks like the NY Central set up Dunkirk as a single platform between the express tracks. The westbound local track is still there as far west as Temple Road to switch coal cars into the old NiMo plant, which I don't think is an issue anymore. But, they seem to park freight cars there as an extension of Dunkirk yard. Making that a 79 MPH main track for freight to avoid the high level passenger station would be difficult for CSX to agree to.

I think an entirely new location needs to be found, or forget the whole thing, and consider Westfield as easier to engineer. That is closer to Jamestown, Chautauqua Institute, and the Amish or Mennonites in southern Cattauraugus County.

 

[jis]

But it does require someone in the locale to take on the challenge and run with it. That is usually the big problem in these things.

 

[bms]

If only the PRIIA 750 mile thing was not there, Cleveland or Toledo would be a Palmetto-like train from New York. It is probably easier to service and turn a train in Toledo today than in Cleveland.

New York to Detroit via the Water Level Route comes in at over 750 miles and would be very popular.

Unfortunately, somebody at Amtrak is incorrectly interpreting the statute to mean "any new service must be under 750 miles and state-supported" when it plainly means "any new service must be over 750 miles or state-supported."

People in power (not just Amtrak) often will claim a statute says what they would like it to say, and count on nobody reading the statute.

 

[zephyr17]

New York to Detroit via the Water Level Route comes in at over 750 miles and would be very popular.

Unfortunately, somebody at Amtrak is incorrectly interpreting the statute to mean "any new service must be under 750 miles and state-supported" when it plainly means "any new service must be over 750 miles or state-supported."

People in power (not just Amtrak) often will claim a statute says what they would like it to say, and count on nobody reading the statute.

President Biden needs to fire the Board and the new Board needs to fire the whole executive management team.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Sadly he got bigger fish to deal with.

 

[Amtrak25]

Biden's responsibilites include appointing Amrak Board members when their terms expire. Their's have all expired for a year or more now. He has been in office over a year. It is Buttigieg's and Trottenberg's responsibility to "remind" him as well. Those fish should be big enough to fry. I think they are so mezmorized by Connect US that they forgot.

We have this section of law to deal with at Amtrak:

Title 49 U.S. Code § 24102. Definitions

“(C) long-distance routes of more than 750 miles between endpoints operated by Amtrak as of the date of enactment of the Passenger Rail Investment and Improvement Act of 2008.

• www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/49/24102
• www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/USCODE-2015-title49/pdf/USCODE-2015-title49-subtitleV-partC-chap241-sec24102.pdf

Amtrak’s likely interpretation: nothing is to be added ad infinitum to the national network from 15 routes of 2008 unless entirely funded by multiple states. So 750 miles means nothing - states pay.

Stephen Gardner may well have written it as a Staffer.

As a follow up article in the Dunkirk newspaper about junk commerical demolition across the street from the old passenger station:

https://www.observertoday.com/news/...Ug2Lot3JsfTDDBmlavxWptlY-k4rBKKrdhEJmDfGwJj50
"It is an area that we are hoping to propose for the new Amtrak station....However, he added, other sites will be under consideration, and the decision on where to put a station is ultimately Amtrak’s. ”

 

[Devil's Advocate]

My first thought was "wasn't this suggested or considered quite a few years ago?" and, sure enough, the article quotes someone as saying it was looked at 21 years ago.

It would have been much cheaper to add the stop back then. Now it will cost several million just to get a platform with no services approved.

Why can't they use the wheelchair lift on the train to fulfill the ADA requirements?

Because that solution would not pass the latest rules of the ADA.

Would a mini high satisfy ADA or does it now have to be full length floor level platforms?

The entire platform must be full height to meet the ADA's expectations.