EB mess

[PRR 60]

You could always house them in trailers like FEMA does after Hurricanes and other Natural Disasters! I'm sure BNSF could cut a deal with a Mobile Housing Manufacturer!

And ship them in on the uncrowded freight line? And hook them up to what water and sewer? There are already huge temporary housing areas called (I'm not kidding) "man camps" which are built as fast as they can be. Me, I like to have a basement out on the prairie, but YMMV.

Yeah, the "man camps" have been visible from the Empire Builder for at least the last two years. What we used to call "trailer courts" but with "hot bunking" -- sheesh - the Bakken is a "boom town" - these $30/hr (absolute minimum wage) - dishwashers get $40, laborers get much more) but pay $3500/month absolute minimum for a time-share on a narrow bunk in a single-wide. You want a room of your own, you commute from SPK or MSP, or pay twice San Jose prices for any lodgings.

It's hard to convince outsiders just what a boom-town the Williston area is. It is insane. Might be a bit like the 49'ers. It is totally insane.

Our daughter lives about 45 miles southwest of Williston in Sidney MT, and it is totally nuts out there. Unemployment is basically zero (anyone unemployed wants to be unemployed). The local McDonalds is only open five days a week, a couple of hours a day, drive-thru only because they can't find anyone willing to work (even though that McD's is offering over $15/hour). Our son lives in Brooklyn (now, there's a contrast), and the apartment he shares there costs less than a similar apartment in Sidney. Anyone who has not seen it (on the ground, not from a train window) would not believe what it is like.

 

[neroden]

I'm just remembering how the railroads were built in the 19th century. Yeah, we wouldn't want to repeat the callous disregard for worker life, but they just shipped in huge gangs of people and built their own towns. Like the oil patch is doing right now. It's a choice to do it more slowly.

 

[jis]

In the 19th century the tracks were also of such quality that it was not uncommon for trains to quite often just fall off the track at random places too. Fortunately speeds were low and if you were not unfortunate enough to also fall down the mountainside in the process, it was also not hard to recover from those frequent mishaps.

it really is much much easier to just be an armchair specialist, isn't it?

 

[Ispolkom]

Well to be fair, it was also bad when the bridge collapsed, or, my favorite, the train derailed off the bridge, hit the frozen river, and the resulting fire burned both the train, and the bridge.

 

[neroden]

In the 19th century the tracks were also of such quality that it was not uncommon for trains to quite often just fall off the track at random places too.

Which seems to happen often enough on CSX, and happened on BNSF just a couple of weeks ago, didn't it?

Sorry, I'm not buying the excuses. You do roadbed preparation (bit of a pain, but it's similar to highway construction, so well understood and lots of firms can be brought in). Then you put down bottom ballast. Then you drop ties, drop rails, and attach the rails to the ties. Then you add more ballast. Thousands of miles can be built very quickly. You do the left-right geometric adjustments, which used to be very hard but is much easier with lasers. Then you start tamping. It's not rocket science; it isn't even bridge building. Switches are a bit more work.

The truth is that the old-fashioned, labor-intensive ways of building tracks are simply more *expensive*. They're perfectly capable of producing high-quality track. They just cost a great deal more than using machinery. (More than twice as much, last I checked.)

If all the machinery is already deployed, however, one should consider supplementing it by doing it the hard way. And if we were building these tracks for a military deployment, we probably would. I expect that BNSF won't consider this because it would increase its marginal costs for track installation (by a huge amount). And from their point of view, that makes sense. All about the profit margins. Go capitalism. :wacko:

 

[Ispolkom]

The truth is that the old-fashioned, labor-intensive ways of building tracks are simply more *expensive*. They're perfectly capable of producing high-quality track. They just cost a great deal more than using machinery. (More than twice as much, last I checked.)

And more dangerous. And require people who know what they are doing. Hand labor is not unskilled labor, and I doubt that there are many good crew bosses sitting around unemployed in North Dakota.

In any case, expecting a corporation to do something in a manner that costs more and will take longer seems foolish to me. BNSF isn't a charity.

 

[neroden]

In any case, expecting a corporation to do something in a manner that costs more and will take longer seems foolish to me. BNSF isn't a charity.

I'm not disagreeing. I'm saying this is the actual underlying problem.

Privately owned for-profit railroads are a failed idea which has been abandoned in most of the world, just like privately owned for-profit roads have been abandoned in most of the world. Here in the underdeveloped US, however...

 

[montana mike]

You really seem to think our government can do this better? We need to take politics out of these discussions. Amtrak is what is is and the RR's own the tracks--period. That will almost surely NOT change. To bring into the discussion how wonderful the trains are in other countries because their government's run them (I have traveled around the world and taken trains in many countries and would strongly disagree with any blanket statement to that effect, some do run well, but many others are as bad or much worse, but that's not the point here) takes us away from the heart of the discussion. One could easily argue that if our government had not blocked the Keystone Pipeline, BNSF would not have had to add so many oil tankers to their fleet, and thus the mess we currently see on the hi-line may not have been as bad. Our federal government has also blocked some of the movement of this Baaken oil into Canada as well, which would have also been a short and easy solution to relieve some pressure on the BNSF system on the Hi-Line. Yes, BNSF is the one primarily responsible for digging this deep hole, but it was the wizard of Omaha and his minions who would not allow BNSF management to invest in their infrastructure as they had wanted and needed to. Every BNSF person I have spoken to here in MT has stated that they were totally hamstrung for three years in allocating and spending funds to upgrade the track system.

 

[Ryan]

You really seem to think our government can do this better? We need to take politics out of these discussions.

I do. They will, if we demand it. At least they're notionally answerable to us, unlike BNSF.

You cite a need to take politics out of the discussion, but point out at every turn what a poor job you feel the government is doing. Pick one and stick with it.

 

[montana mike]

Not mutually exclusive events at all. FACT: the government is part of the problem on the Hi-Line. No one can deny that. If the pipeline had been built at least 100,000 BBLS a day of Baaken crude would have been flowing south and perhaps almost as much flowing north in another pipeline into Canada.

FACT: BNSF's buy out by Berkshire Hathaway was indeed a factor, according to both public reports and BNSF's own employees BH prevented BNSF from investing in their infrastructure for the first three years of their ownership of the railroad, thus delaying needed improvements.

Our federal government is accountable to no one now. We are "ruled" by power brokers in DC and bureaucrats who are firmly entrenched in their power and no matter which party is in the WH this is the FACT. It is almost impossible to fire ANY federal bureaucrat-look at the GSA, IRS, State Dept and now the VA. Were ANY of the people involved in these scandals actually fired. NO. Not one (The head of the VA resigned, but he was a political appointee, and not actually one of the people who made those awful decisions which caused vets to wait 115 days just for an appointment to see a doctor). I was in Washington DC for over 8 years and had hundreds of very good federal employees work for me, but the ones who were dead wood or worse were virtually untouchable. It took me 3 years of diligent work to get rid of several really horrendous people. And it would have taken longer if the court suit brought by the union hadn't been thrown out.

BTW-Have you traveled trains throughout the world on a regular basis? As I said some are good, but many are as bad or much worse that our system. You also cannot compare a small country's train system, where their entire system amounts to less than what the NY city subway runs each day, with a country as vast as ours. A good example of both very good and terrible trains is in Europe. They are often fast, modern and generally reliable, until they go on strike (which they do often) or there is bad weather-in Italy for example often wind and rain will literally shut the service down for hours. Ditto in England, where London has a very good subway system but get "above ground" and things get dicey the further you get away from the City.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Really enjoy your info re the Hi Line and BNSF Mike but the Government can't do anything right mantra is old, tired and untrue! The biggest messes in our Corporate financial meltdowns. Let alone Corporate welfare. are always fixed by bailouts from the Evil Government! (Too Big to Fail!)

Disclaimer: I'm a retired Government Employee who spent 25 years in Sodom on the Potomac and an Overwhelming Majority of Government Programs and Civil Servants worked Great! It was the Micro-Managing Politicians and the "Bidness Persons" who wanted to run the Government like a Bidness that created the FUBARS! Just look @ Amtrak!

YMMV

 

[D.P. Roberts]

FACT: the government is part of the problem on the Hi-Line. No one can deny that. If the pipeline had been built at least 100,000 BBLS a day of Baaken crude would have been flowing south and perhaps almost as much flowing north in another pipeline into Canada.

This is not a fact. An increased demand for freight along the Hi Line is not the "fault" of those who would want that service. Can you blame the grain farmers who have contracts with BNSF to carry their grain? Can you blame "Christmas" for the increased demand by Amazon in December? BNSF agreed to these contracts, it is entirely their responsibility to fulfill their end of the bargain.

 

[Dog Rancher]

Interesting that my post—critical of the govt—was, evidently, removed while the "govt is great and does everything well as opposed to large, inefficient companies like FedEx and UPS" posts remain.

I'm starting to understand that political posts are not allowed—unless they mesh with the "Amtrak is great, it just needs more tax money" thinking.

So be it.

Sent from my iPad Air using Amtrak Forum

 

[crescent2]

I read your previous post and didn't find it any more "anything" than those expressing the opposite opinion. (I didn't find any of them offensive.) It's not unusual for threads to wander a little OT or even totally OT, but regardless, that would apply to both sides. I've seen a few posts removed from the forum with good reason, but I'm surprised that yours was. JMO

BTW, I think (traveling on) Amtrak is (usually) great, and it does need more money!

 

[Bob Dylan]

Yours wasn't the only post removed Captain! Of course I never discuss Politics on here (LOL) so my Posts aren't deleted but seriously there is a Forum on here, Random Discussions,for this kind of Discussion and it really does cover a broad range of topics and opinions!

 

[mwmnp]

If the pipeline had been built at least 100,000 BBLS a day of Baaken crude would have been flowing south

How many fewer trains would there be had the Keystone XL pipeline been built by now?

 

[Ryan]

"govt is great and does everything well as opposed to large, inefficient companies like FedEx and UPS" posts remain.

Funny, I don't see any posts saying that.

 

[Dog Rancher]

Yours wasn't the only post removed Captain! Of course I never discuss Politics on here (LOL) so my Posts aren't deleted but seriously there is a Forum on here, Random Discussions,for this kind of Discussion and it really does cover a broad range of topics and opinions!

I get that.

It is disconcerting, however, that the crowd clamoring for more govt funding for Amtrak and who defend the fraud and waste that is the hallmark of govt agencies and programs is allowed to post unfettered. Especially when another quasi-govt agency (USPS) is cited as a model of efficiency as compared to actually incredibly efficient companies like FedEx and UPS—both of whom I use on an almost daily basis to run my firm.

Anyway, I understand the slant of the board now.

Thanks.

Sent from my iPad Air using Amtrak Forum

 

[Dog Rancher]

"govt is great and does everything well as opposed to large, inefficient companies like FedEx and UPS" posts remain.

Funny, I don't see any posts saying that.

Actually I did—the OP mentioned FedEx and UPS by name as inefficient large corporations put to shame by the amazingly nimble USPS—who, in my experience, usually has their tracking updated within a couple of days of delivery.
It's there but I'm not wasting my time looking for it. Too political.

Sent from my iPad Air using Amtrak Forum

 

[Ryan]

Put up or shut up. You don't get to claim "it's still there" if you can't find it. How do you know it wasn't removed?

The OP says absolutely nothing about any of this:

Now that the famed hamster has safely arrived in Syracuse, on to less pressing matters. I saw something about the EB was routed through New Rockford, ND, but yesterday's #8 just arrived in Chicago nearly 21 hours late. What messed up this time? Must have been a really fun trip.

 

[MrFSS]

Enough!!

 

[Ryan]

Sorry, Tom. You guys work too hard keeping this place running smoothly for some misinformed posters to complain about unfairness.

 

[Dog Rancher]

Put up or shut up. You don't get to claim "it's still there" if you can't find it. How do you know it wasn't removed?

The OP says absolutely nothing about any of this:

Now that the famed hamster has safely arrived in Syracuse, on to less pressing matters. I saw something about the EB was routed through New Rockford, ND, but yesterday's #8 just arrived in Chicago nearly 21 hours late. What messed up this time? Must have been a really fun trip.

I'm talking about the guy who disparaged two companies that employ hundreds of thousands of people moving millions of packages daily and that still manage to make a profit without a govt hammock to support them.

The post was there. Whether it got removed or not isn't the issue. The issue, which I decline to pursue any further, is the "govt is great and they don't give Amtrak enough money" mindset.

Personally, I want NOTHING from the govt it isn't constitutionally required to provide—and this includes subsidies/bailouts for private businesses.

Pick a fight somewhere else.

Sent from my iPad Air using Amtrak Forum

 

[D.P. Roberts]

It is disconcerting, however, that the crowd clamoring for more govt funding for Amtrak and who defend the fraud and waste that is the hallmark of govt agencies and programs is allowed to post unfettered.

The post was there. Whether it got removed or not isn't the issue.

I missed all the posts that were deleted, but you're contradicting yourself. On one hand, you're complaining that only one side of the issue is being given a voice - your posts are being deleted, and the side that you feel is opposing you remains. On the other, you admit that those opposing viewpoints may have been deleted, but this "isn't the issue"?