Elderly lady kicked off Eagle.

[crescent-zephyr]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/abc7ne...ff-train-is-victim-of-discrimination/5280362/

Saw this over on trainorders. Very odd story. Not sure why she was allowed to board with 2 dogs in the first place.

 

[saxman]

I saw this on a social media post. One guy commented that he was on this train and said there was way more to this story. He didn't offer any details though. Conductors don't take kicking someone off a train lightly.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

I saw this on a social media post. One guy commented that he was on this train and said there was way more to this story. He didn't offer any details though. Conductors don't take kicking someone off a train lightly.

I can imagine there is more to the story, however I disagree with your last statement. I saw a man get kicked off the crescent for simply arguing with the conductor about a closed coach. Sure he was acting like a whiny 2 year old, but he wasn’t being violent or even loud about it and she literally said “if you don’t like how I run my train you’re not riding it” and she had police escort him off the train. I saw the whole thing, it was simply a power play.

 

[desertflyer]

2-4 people each month are being thrown off in Alpine? From a train that only operates 3 times a week? That surprising to me.

Does Amtrak ever do internal investigations to see if a conductor acted appropriately? It seems like Amtrak should have at least responded to the reporter with a promise that they'll investigate what happened. Instead they provided a list of all the reasons passengers can be kicked off and gave her a refund.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Conductors don't take kicking someone off a train lightly.

&

I saw a man get kicked off the crescent for simply arguing with the conductor about a closed coach...I saw the whole thing, it was simply a power play.

In my experience most conductors don't seem all that anxious to kick people off just for the hell of it. That being said, if a given conductor were on a power trip it would be pretty easy for them to misuse and abuse their power with little or no meaningful recourse for aggrieved passengers.

 

[PVD]

Amtrak is not obligated to accept support dogs, and even if they were, the article indicates they were support for her late husband, not her. They didn't belong on the train in the first place, and the only dogs not in carriers on a train are supposed to be real service dogs. And pets in carriers are not permitted in sleepers.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

I’m not aware of any business that is not obligated to accept service dogs?

(I agree that in this case, it seems odd they were permitted to begin with).

 

[trainman74]

Amtrak is not obligated to accept support dogs...

I’m not aware of any business that is not obligated to accept service dogs?

They're obligated to accept service dogs. They are not obligated to accept emotional support dogs.

 

[PVD]

The ADA requires that service dogs are permitted in almost every situation. Even if these were service and not support, the dogs were stated to have been her late husbands', except in special situations, the service dog is permitted to accompany the person it is trained to assist, not someone else. When it is not with its "charge" it is not privileged. Some jurisdictions have added support animal requirements and the Air Carrier Access Act forced airlines to accept them also. That has resulted in the problem of fraudulently presented (as emotional support) animals because some people don't want to pay, and some people don't want to keep animals in carriers, both of which would be required if they were pets. The sad thing is that people with legitimate needs will likely see increased scrutiny and regulation as a result of reaction to the actions of disgusting selfish people.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

They're obligated to accept service dogs. They are not obligated to accept emotional support dogs.

Ah yes. I notice the wording now.

 

[Seaboard92]

When I’m not on the rails I work as a vet tech. And I can’t begin to tell you how many people are attempting to take advantage of the emotional support animals. We’ve actually been talking lately about requiring a note from a mental health doctor before signing papers to make it a support animal.

Honestly I think we need to regulate what animals can and can not be emotional support animals

 

[Old MM]

So tired of these fake ESAs. It has got to be a major headache for the employees to try and navigate given the consequences if a situation isn't handled correctly. Or if there's even a perception it isn't handled correctly.
Recent trip on the Wolverine out of Chicago, a woman scammed her way into Business class with a fake service animal. Not sure but I think she claimed she was military and may have been upgraded for free (not sure about that part). She wasn't in uniform. When they boarded, the dog was pulling and straining on the leash, and she struggled to control him. My son had a sandwich in a paper bag which the dog made a beeline for, and had to be dragged away. Two clues right there as service animals are very well trained to tune out all distractions and only focus on the person they are trained to assist. All the way to Ann Arbor, the dog was panting and whining (clue number 3). I felt sorry for the dog (not the owner) and the nervous animal made for an unpleasant trip as they were right in front of us and impossible to tune out the noise. Later I saw the conductor in the cafe car and asked him about why the dog was on board. He told me his paperwork said the dog was a service animal. He had this look in his eye of "what the hell can I do." I certainly regretted spending the money for Biz class.

 

[PVD]

There is a major distinction between ESA and service animals. Amtrak does not permit ESA. But the ADA is very restrictive in what you are permitted to ask someone who claims an animal is a service animal, since the law does not require registration or certification. And service or not, if the animal is not under control or causing a problem it can be thrown off. But almost nobody will ever do that because of the fear of backlash, they know even if they are right their bosses will fold up like beach chairs after Labor Day.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Yeah, business class is still such a gamble, you just have better odds. (A gamble of having a quiet and calm experience).

I agree with the service / support animal situation. Trained service animals should be allowed everywhere at all times no questions asked.

Any other type of “support animal” is a totally different situation.

 

[Old MM]

You're allowed to ask "What service does the animal provide for you?" or something similar. It's one of those questions that only sound good in a training class and have little-to-none real world applicability. So I get what you're saying, about the fear of backlash, which is exactly why I didn't bring up the incident to Amtrak. It would only cause an issue for the conductor and that would be the end of it.

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

The entire ADA needs to be town down and redone to close all the loopholes, especially on who is allowed to have and use a handicap parking tag. And clear definitions of support/service animals and where they can and cannot go need to be addressed as well. Commercial transportation and it users are being victimized by scammer and ther so-called support animals.

 

[Skyline]

The pastor seems to believe this was at least partially motivated by the elderly woman's race. It's possible. There are plenty of people in positions of "power" who are racist. We armchair / internet observers have no way of knowing.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I don't really care if it's an "emotional support animal" or some other vaguely defined service or benefit; I mainly care that the animal is fully trained for calm, quiet, and controllable behavior in public. That should be the primary standard for acceptance in my view. The ADA's thin-skinned restrictions on certifications and vetting makes even this relatively moderate standard difficult to implement and verify in a practical manner and that's a bad situation for everyone IMO.

 

[RebelRider]

You're allowed to ask "What service does the animal provide for you?" or something similar. It's one of those questions that only sound good in a training class and have little-to-none real world applicability. So I get what you're saying, about the fear of backlash, which is exactly why I didn't bring up the incident to Amtrak. It would only cause an issue for the conductor and that would be the end of it.

The exact verbiage we're supposed to ask is, "What task or function has your animal been trained to perform for you?" Seizure alert, guide dog, medication reminders, blood sugar, etc. I've denied boarding more than once for emotional support animals. I've put barking service dogs off and an emotional support dog making a ruckus in the sleepers. I've also dispatched a small parrot (parakeet?), a huge gerbil hidden in a purse and a pair of sugar gliders from the train. Found a turtle, too.

One passenger stood on the platform waving their "official government" United States of America Emotional Support Animal quoting their "federal rights" as I denied boarding. This was after multiple attempts to steer the right answer of a trained task. They just kept quoting emotional and comfort support. The dog could have fit in a carrier and traveled as a pet. I'm still waiting for the promised lawsuit.

For all those situations, there have been many more where passengers gave the right answer and traveled, even though we all knew the animal wasn't performing any tasks or service. The animal was well enough behaved that removal wasn't warranted.

The thing about legit service animals is the passengers are quiet and kind, never being a bother. The animals board and quietly disappear at their owners feet. They don't dress their service animal in a vest emblazoned with WORKING SERVICE ANIMAL. They certainly don't wave ID cards nor shove service animal papers in my face.

 

[wwchi]

So tired of these fake ESAs. It has got to be a major headache for the employees to try and navigate given the consequences if a situation isn't handled correctly. Or if there's even a perception it isn't handled correctly.
Recent trip on the Wolverine out of Chicago, a woman scammed her way into Business class with a fake service animal. Not sure but I think she claimed she was military and may have been upgraded for free (not sure about that part). She wasn't in uniform. When they boarded, the dog was pulling and straining on the leash, and she struggled to control him. My son had a sandwich in a paper bag which the dog made a beeline for, and had to be dragged away. Two clues right there as service animals are very well trained to tune out all distractions and only focus on the person they are trained to assist. All the way to Ann Arbor, the dog was panting and whining (clue number 3). I felt sorry for the dog (not the owner) and the nervous animal made for an unpleasant trip as they were right in front of us and impossible to tune out the noise. Later I saw the conductor in the cafe car and asked him about why the dog was on board. He told me his paperwork said the dog was a service animal. He had this look in his eye of "what the hell can I do." I certainly regretted spending the money for Biz class.

I think I may have seen this same woman on the Wolverine once...noticed her walking to the train with a very entitled look with her dog...of course it could be a totally different person but I take that train all the time and in all the years of taking it only once have seen such a thing.

 

[Rasputin]

In order to protect itself against lawsuits, I assume that Amtrak requires conductors or other employees to file a report whenever a passenger is ejected from a train.

In the past I have been asked by a conductor to write a statement of what I had observed about an incident which resulted in two belligerent and profane drunks being removed from an Amtrak train. Were we glad to get rid of those two!

 

[RebelRider]

In order to protect itself against lawsuits, I assume that Amtrak requires conductors or other employees to file a report whenever a passenger is ejected from a train.

In the past I have been asked by a conductor to write a statement of what I had observed about an incident which resulted in two belligerent and profane drunks being removed from an Amtrak train. Were we glad to get rid of those two!

We have paperwork for everything.

 

[Dakota 400]

The entire ADA needs to be town down and redone to close all the loopholes, especially on who is allowed to have and use a handicap parking tag. And clear definitions of support/service animals and where they can and cannot go need to be addressed as well. Commercial transportation and it users are being victimized by scammer and ther so-called support animals.

If someone is scamming the situation, yes, something ought to be done concerning that issue. But, to throw out the entire ADA and start over: that's too extreme given the political situation in the Country at this time. The Administration is looking for regulations to alter or eliminate. Eliminating the current ADA and starting over might not be in the best interests of those who currently benefit from the ADA.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Agreed. Over all the ADA is providing a great service. The fact that some people are taking advantage in order to get their pets on board or a better parking space is not a reason to tear the whole thing down.

 

[spinnaker]

I don't really care if it's an "emotional support animal" or some other vaguely defined service or benefit; I mainly care that the animal is fully trained for calm, quiet, and controllable behavior in public. That should be the primary standard for acceptance in my view. The ADA's thin-skinned restrictions on certifications and vetting makes even this relatively moderate standard difficult to implement and verify in a practical manner and that's a bad situation for everyone IMO.

And there is the key. You should be permitted to bring your animal on for whatever ADA reason as long as the animal is properly trained and certified. It costs thousands to train a guide dog. Many guide dogs are dismissed early in training due to some rather minor behavioral issues. It is an extremely selective process. Now an "emotional support" animal likely not need as stringent as training as a guide dog but is it is still going to be expensive. You want to pay the cost to get a dog trained and certified then go ahead and bring it aboard.

When people need to pay the big bucks to get an animal aboard just watch how many that will choose to leave poochie at home.

Frankly if you are that emotionally unstable that you need the emotional support of an animal then you probably should not be traveling.