Empire Builder #8 (23) Derailment
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The train has arrived in Havre, so on the grand scheme of things, pretty minor overall.
Phew. The last thing they need is more Superliners going out of service pending inspection/minor repair. Hopefully it was the entire consist that arrived and they didn't cut out that car out.
Spoke too soon. Just saw a video posted on FB of today's 8 at Havre. They dropped the last two cars, so 28's coach/bag and sleeper are off of the train. Bet there are lot of happy passengers crammed into the remaining cars (2 coaches, 2 sleepers and a transdorm). Bet they are using the Sightseer to seat some of them.
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danasgoodstuff
OBS Chief
Was this exactly where the last derailment was, or just close?
This one was a couple of miles west of Havre; the freight train derailment was about 7 miles east of Havre.
About 40 miles away from the Joplin derailment
west point
Engineer
3 derailments in a short distance. Could it be BNSF needs more or better track maintenance due to very high temperature extremes? May need to raise rail neutral temps however, that can make pull a parts more likely? Maybe more rail anchors? Change in ballast rules? Crossties specification? A temperature graph of the area both day by day and winter to summer?
Uncle Warren may become unhappy.
Uncle Warren may become unhappy.
Sure hope they get it squared away before our westbound trip on 8/19
desertflyer
Lead Service Attendant
Some people have said that it's difficult to engineer for because the temperature changes quite a lot in a short period of time.
I just saw this about the 2021 derailment in Montana. I would guess maintaining the tracks is difficult in that remote part of the country.
July 27, 2023
HELENA, Mont. (AP) — Poor track conditions that should have been flagged by a freight railroad company’s inspectors caused the derailment of an Amtrak train in Montana that killed three people and injured 49 others in 2021, federal investigators said Thursday in a final report.
The poor track conditions included a worn rail, vertical track deflection, misalignment and instability in the rail bed, the report found. The NTSB said BNSF’s lack of action indicated “a shortcoming in its safety culture.”
Thursday’s finding follows what was revealed earlier this year in the agency’s investigative documents. Investigators identified a deteriorating track based on video footage from three eastbound trains, including another Amtrak train, that traveled through the area in the hours before the westbound Amtrak train’s derailment.
The problem got worse as the trains traveled over the area before the crash, the report said.
An image from video captured by the derailed train showed a nearly 3-inch (23-centimeter) misalignment in the rails, the report said."
https://apnews.com/article/amtrak-d...ecoReel&utm_medium=articlePage&utm_id=Taboola
July 27, 2023
HELENA, Mont. (AP) — Poor track conditions that should have been flagged by a freight railroad company’s inspectors caused the derailment of an Amtrak train in Montana that killed three people and injured 49 others in 2021, federal investigators said Thursday in a final report.
The poor track conditions included a worn rail, vertical track deflection, misalignment and instability in the rail bed, the report found. The NTSB said BNSF’s lack of action indicated “a shortcoming in its safety culture.”
Thursday’s finding follows what was revealed earlier this year in the agency’s investigative documents. Investigators identified a deteriorating track based on video footage from three eastbound trains, including another Amtrak train, that traveled through the area in the hours before the westbound Amtrak train’s derailment.
The problem got worse as the trains traveled over the area before the crash, the report said.
An image from video captured by the derailed train showed a nearly 3-inch (23-centimeter) misalignment in the rails, the report said."
https://apnews.com/article/amtrak-d...ecoReel&utm_medium=articlePage&utm_id=Taboola
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Another lesson on the follies of PSR and running as few employees as possible ragged. Really hope this leads to some regulations on the class 1s.
Derailments are commonly caused by lack of maintenance on the tracks and with the wheel trucks on the cars. The freight railroads are supposed to be running track inspection vehicles regularly. Apparently it may not be so regularly. On the NE corridor there is seldom a derailment caused by faulty track or car wheels. Perhaps Amtrak needs to come to an agreement with the freight railroads to allow their own track inspections.
You can wire a locomotive to detect track defects. I recall a Class 1 did so, the number of defects it would discovered end it use.
However it was a fast deterioration of the track at this location, three previous train show it getting much worse. If one of the crews would of reported it, then a track inspection would have to be done.
Yeah a billion dollars a years to the parent company. New equipment, higher maintenance of track, happy employees, and still be profitable.
However it was a fast deterioration of the track at this location, three previous train show it getting much worse. If one of the crews would of reported it, then a track inspection would have to be done.
Yeah a billion dollars a years to the parent company. New equipment, higher maintenance of track, happy employees, and still be profitable.
Not specific to BNSF, but a Reuters story from April had this factoid:
The 14 rail unions, which represent more than 100,000 freight rail workers, said on Friday the six publicly traded railroads spent over $165 billion in buying back stock since 2015, a number that is at least $46 billion more than what they have invested in safety.
The 14 rail unions, which represent more than 100,000 freight rail workers, said on Friday the six publicly traded railroads spent over $165 billion in buying back stock since 2015, a number that is at least $46 billion more than what they have invested in safety.
This was on the news about the request to install those track sensors on every locomotive. I don't think the RRs agree.
"Federal investigators renewed their recommendation that major freight railroads equip every locomotive with the kind of autonomous sensors that could have caught the track flaws that caused a fatal 2021 Amtrak derailment in northern Montana.
But installing the sensors on the tens of thousands of locomotives in the fleet could be cost prohibitive, and it’s not entirely clear if one would have caught the combination of rail flaws that the National Transportation Safety Board said caused the crash near Joplin, Montana, that killed three people and injured 49 others. And rail unions caution that no technology should be a substitute for human inspectors."
west point
Engineer
Probably it would be too expensive for the sensors. Now the NTSB was able to tell from the camera images of the track that there was a progressive movement of the derailment site from each succeeding train. If Cameras have enough resolution or purchase new ones with enough resolution, could they be programmed to spot alignment flaws.?
Now what protocols when a misalignment is detected leave to others. Emergency braking? Maybe not! Maybe earlier trains would have detected the progressive misalignment allowing for earlier repair?
Now what protocols when a misalignment is detected leave to others. Emergency braking? Maybe not! Maybe earlier trains would have detected the progressive misalignment allowing for earlier repair?
In the video from the last BNSF freight to traverse that track the afternoon before the derailment noticeable misalignment can be seen, but in the previous freights and the other EB they don't see any.
The railroads say they use these devices on some locomotives, but they don't want to have to install them on all of them.
I wonder how the costs of sensors compares to the cost of lawsuits after a derailment?
The railroads say they use these devices on some locomotives, but they don't want to have to install them on all of them.
I wonder how the costs of sensors compares to the cost of lawsuits after a derailment?
Well, all Amtrak contracts with the railroads, including BNSF, totally indemnify the railroad against passenger suits and Amtrak's own losses irrespective of fault. If they sue BNSF, they are just suing Amtrak indirectly. It is one of the conditions of railroads hosting Amtrak and has been from the start of Amtrak.
Legal costs and damages after a freight derailment by shippers and local communities and residents are a concern to the railroads, but damages to Amtrak and its passengers simply aren't. They have iron clad protection against that.
vap0rtranz
Train Attendant
Sad to hear this.
It sounds like other NTSB accidents that killed people. There's often signs that NTSB investigators find that could have been spotted but weren't seen (like the camera footage) or weren't quickly and accurately acted on (red-tape).
It sounds like other NTSB accidents that killed people. There's often signs that NTSB investigators find that could have been spotted but weren't seen (like the camera footage) or weren't quickly and accurately acted on (red-tape).
west point
Engineer
Have to wonder if a US attorney decides to investigate every BNSF official involved in the decision to not follow FRA rules. A threat of involutory Manslaughter charges might wake up top management.?
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While the freight railroads do have indemnity, if they are found to be recklessly negligent that may reopen them to damages. Unsure how that all works but if found to be negligent that can change things. It does sound like the dogma of PSR was a major cause of this accident.
jis
Permanent Way Inspector
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On the whole it seems like BNSF is trying to emulate CSX specially from decades back when they were demonstrably using too little ballast specially on curves to be safe. That is what caused the Crescent City FL derailment of the Auto Train.
CSX has abandoned that practice, but I guess BNSF has lately discovered it.
CSX has abandoned that practice, but I guess BNSF has lately discovered it.
