Empire Builder accident (9/25/21)

[Just-Thinking-51]

Got to file first, so you make more money.

 

[Cal]

There are a number of errors in their filing, probably caused by the rush. Note that one of the firms is in Philadelphia. They probably cut and pasted from the lawsuits in the NEC crash.

Possibly the biggest error is stating that the train was on the BNSF all the way from Chicago as a justification for suing the BNSF in Illinois. Another serious error is their claim that PTC failed to prevent the accident, as there is no sign that this had anything to do with PTC. Instead, that's a clue that this is a cut and paste from the NEC overspeed accident.

"Failing to slow down as the Empire Builder Train approached the East Buelow track switch;"

It was operating at (technically under) the speed limit as well

 

[west point]

Have always believed in handholds. They make it much easier to pass along the coach cars. If you have nothing in hand the left right left right makes anyone feel very secure. As well handholds on both side when crossing over the couplers are also very good. The lounge car on the starlight only had a handhold on one side passing thru to that car. I did not like that.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

I noted that in the gentleman's interview. To have crawled through a broken window of the SSL between the car and the ground in order to escape, could I/would I have done so? Was this the best decision one could make at that time? Would it have been better to wait for the emergency responders (or Amtrak crew) to give me directions as to what to do?

Obviously, the decisions he made were to his benefit.

Very general rule: Self Rescue every time.

If your in a building on Fire you need to get out. You do not wait for instructions. You get out, stay out, and call 911(US).

You and your family have a rally location at your house. (Mailbox) At work you have rally location sometimes marked. Get yourself out and meet at the rally point and checking with your building fire marshal or other family members. Report missing member and pets still inside. Approx location if possible to the Fire Department.

When traveling on Amtrak review the card in the seat back/sleeper. Three ways list to leave in a emergency. Leave your coach and enter the next car. Leave thur a door and exit to the ground. Leave by open the window and sliding/jumping down to the ground. The card has picture where safety equipment is located. Walk around and find it. Where are your fire extinguisher? There a first aid kit, where is it. What are those metal tools ⚒ and where are they located. The card provided guidance on what to do in a emergency.

In this case your cars landed on it side.

Step one scene safety. Fire, electric hazard, water flooding the railcar? Time to move. Find daylight now.
Step two are you OK, is everyone with you OK. If the car is on fire you move injured, other wise apply direct pressure to any bleeding and keep them warm, and stay with them.
Exiting the train and stay together if conditions are acceptable. Don’t leave if there a raging snow storm if there is no hazards you need to escape from.
Don’t just grab a ride to the bus station, people are going to be looking for you.

Ok it past midnight here, the above guidelines are just that, guideline. Waiting for instructions during a immediate life threatening event will not have a positive outcome. If your not in danger, you can be a sheep and follow the flock.

Remember it was in the 90s and the railcars lost power, and the people were getting hot fast. Not a life threatening issue at first, but will develop into one. Finding a shaded spot was a priority for some.

 

[MIrailfan]

Frivolous lawsuit.

 

[WWW]

There are a number of errors in their filing, probably caused by the rush. Note that one of the firms is in Philadelphia. They probably cut and pasted from the lawsuits in the NEC crash.

Possibly the biggest error is stating that the train was on the BNSF all the way from Chicago as a justification for suing the BNSF in Illinois. Another serious error is their claim that PTC failed to prevent the accident, as there is no sign that this had anything to do with PTC. Instead, that's a clue that this is a cut and paste from the NEC overspeed accident.

To clarify the Empire Builder train 7 leaving Chicago to Minneapolis St.Paul is on Canadian Pacific tracks (formerly the Milwaukee Road)
In northeast Minneapolis the EB switches over to the BNSF system to Seattle.

Would the lawyers please wait to read the report findings of the NTSB - something about chasing ambulances and train mishaps -
A rush to erroneous judgement before the facts are reported !

FYI

Train # 7 28 September arrived MSP 9:52pm (11 minutes early) and departed 10:20 On Time
Consist - the standard 10 car arrangement
2 locomotive
1 baggage car
1 transdorm (the one with the square window at the front of the car
1 sleeper
1 sleeper
1 diner
1 coach

Spokane section
1 ssl lounge
1 coach
1 coach
1 sleeper

 

[HammerJack]

Not sure who wrote the lawsuit document posted here earlier, but it’s full of errors and awful takes. How can you even sue prior to the investigation and ANY report being released? The lawsuit just generically blames Amtrak and BNSF for everything.

 

[Irelandvegas65]

#7 looks to be moving along just fine! I don’t know why the speed is showing so high but many I looked at are like that this morning Are there areas where the track limit is higher that the 79 mph I keep hearing about? Either way Empire Builder is back in action I can’t wait to board her Thursday afternoon (tomorrow)!

 

[George K]

That's the lawyers talking - Of course they blame Amtrak and BNSF for everything. Their thinking is that had the companies done their jobs and kept up maintenance and "culture of safety" this would never have happened.

If you're not going to blame Amtrak and BNSF, you have little recourse other than shaking your fist at the sky.

Note, not that I'm agreeing with the thinking, just pointing it out.

Sometimes, "accidents" are just that.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

#7 looks to be moving along just fine! I don’t know why the speed is showing so high but many I looked at are like that this morning Are there areas where the track limit is higher that the 79 mph I keep hearing about? Either way Empire Builder is back in action I can’t wait to board her Thursday afternoon (tomorrow)!

It’s a glitch on the tracker. Someone on FB said it’s showing km even though it says mph

 

[Ryan]

Yeah, the Auto Train ticking along at 110 "MPH" is a dead giveaway.

 

[zephyr17]

Are there areas where the track limit is higher that the 79 mph I keep hearing about?

That's gotta be some kind of weird artifact and not the actual speed.

FRA limits speed to 79 mph for passenger trains on Class 4 track, and none of the Builder's route is anything above Class 4. Plus there is a governer that trips with any sustained speed over 82 or 83 mph and will bring the engine to a stop. Also the line has PTC that will enforce speed restrictions.

Doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility that one of Amtrak's highly skilled IT technicians hit a "kilometer" toggle. 112.3 km/h is 69.78 mph. 70 is a quite conceivable speed for the Devil's Lake Sub where the tracker is showing 7.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

*waiting for posts on FB saying that the Builder needs to slow down to at least 70 after what happened on Saturday*

 

[Exvalley]

It's interesting that the complaint is signed by attorneys from two different firms. One firm is located in Chicago. The other in Philadelphia. Could it be that the Philadelphia law firm has prior experience in suing Amtrak?

 

[Exvalley]

Could it be that the Philadelphia law firm has prior experience in suing Amtrak?

I just answered my own question. Yes, they have sued Amtrak before.
https://www.smbb.com/news-article/amtrak-hit-with-more-lawsuits-from-philadelphia-derailment/
And after this most recent accident they put out a press release looking for victims:
https://www.prnewswire.com/news-rel...l-amtrak-derailment-in-montana-301385158.html
Apparently the press release worked.

 

[cocojacoby]

You can see how badly the roofs are buckled and dented. As well as the debris scattered around from when they rolled and the stuff came out of the windows and end door.
View attachment 24619

I believe that photo was taken after they intentionally flipped the cars over. Other photos show the roofs in good condition after the initial tip.

 

[josephr33]

I read throught the lawsuit and there is a ton of talk about heat kinks and rail temps. As others have pointed out it was obviously written quickly and poorly but the amount of mention of these issues makes me wonder if they know something we don't. They may also just be guessing like we all are here...

 

[Exvalley]

s others have pointed out it was obviously written quickly and poorly but the amount of mention of these issues makes me wonder if they know something we don't. They may also just be guessing like we all are here...

Civil Rule of Procedure 11 prevents them from just guessing - or at least can sanction them if they are just guessing. The rule says that they must have a factual basis for their allegations. I also doubt that they would stake their professional reputation on a mere guess. My hunch is that whoever they use as an expert witness has some connections.

https://www.upcounsel.com/legal-def-sanctions-rule-11

 

[joelkfla]

I just answered my own question. Yes, they have sued Amtrak before.
https://www.smbb.com/news-article/amtrak-hit-with-more-lawsuits-from-philadelphia-derailment/
And after this most recent accident they put out a press release looking for victims:
https://www.prnewswire.com/news-rel...l-amtrak-derailment-in-montana-301385158.html
Apparently the press release worked.

I find it amusing that their press release characterizes themselves as "leading railroad catastrophe lawyers". Leading, as in, closest to the ambulances?

Really doesn't seem like something to be proud of.

 

[NSC1109]

Not sure who wrote the lawsuit document posted here earlier, but it’s full of errors and awful takes. How can you even sue prior to the investigation and ANY report being released? The lawsuit just generically blames Amtrak and BNSF for everything.

Not to mention outright lies…

“Amtrak and BNSF employed workers and personnel at the train station in Chicago, Illinois to assist passengers boarding the Empire Builder train, including Rebecca and Zach.”

This is false. While BNSF does employ personnel who work at Union Station, they have absolutely nothing to do with the Amtrak operation and are on the opposite side of the building and are acting on behalf of Metra, not Amtrak.

The network map they show is inaccurate, BNSF obviously doesnt own the tracks north of CUS where the EB travels…

The lawsuit claims that BNSF and Amtrak are a part of a “joint venture” for carrying Amtrak passengers…is there any truth to this? To my knowledge Amtrak simply purchases trackage rights.

The lawsuit claims that Amtrak was negligent, but there is zero evidence of it thus far. It also claims that both the Cayce incident and the 2016 Palmetto crash were both the fault of Amtrak and a demonstration of the negligence of safety for their passengers…despite the Cayce derailment not being caused by Amtrak and the Palmetto crash not causing the death of any passenger, but rather two MOW employees on a backhoe.

The lawsuit also claims that Amtrak and BNSF failed to follow the NORAC rules, when in actuality Amtrak crews use GCOR west of Chicago and BNSF doesn’t use NORAC at all…

I couldn’t get through the entire suit…it reeks of nothing more than clueless desperation for a payday. I feel badly for this woman who lost her husband. I’ve ridden the EB and it’s a beautiful journey. But this is just BS.

 

[NSC1109]

I find it amusing that their press release characterizes themselves as "leading railroad catastrophe lawyers". Leading, as in, closest to the ambulances?

Really doesn't seem like something to be proud of.

You’d think “leading railroad catastrophe lawyers” would know something about railroad operations, or at least would be able to read a map defining who owns what…

These guys are idiots.

 

[jis]

I read it and it took me a while to stop laughing. If these guys succeed I will lose whatever shred of faith I have in the various court systems in the US.

 

[Exvalley]

I read it and it took me a while to stop laughing. If these guys succeed I will lose whatever shred of faith I have in the various court systems in the US.

These guys have been extremely successful in the past. I would not be so quick to brush them off.

I expect to see an amended complaint filed at some point in the future. They rushed to get this filed in order to get their foot in the door and to attract other potential plaintiffs. Any factual errors will be quickly resolved, if for not other reason than to comply with Rule 11.

It will be interesting to see if BNSF can be sued in Illinois. No doubt they will be seeking a dismissal based on this.

 

[F900ElCapitan]

I read it and it took me a while to stop laughing. If these guys succeed I will lose whatever shred of faith I have in the various court systems in the US.

Unfortunately, I lost that a long time ago. The sad reality is the amount of money Amtrak/BNSF is looking at to just make this go away vs the total cost of a full trial even if they are found not guilty.

 

[George K]

Lawfare.