Empire Builder accident (9/25/21)

[crescent-zephyr]

IDs and photos of the fatalities -- Wife of one of three killed in Amtrak crash files wrongful death suit

Very sad. 2 couples who were celebrating. :-(

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I have a major problem with the lopsided indemnity agreements that Amtrak is obliged to sign because of the massive disparity in network mileage. I do not have a problem with wrongful death lawsuits in general. Posting some article about an absurd filing proves nothing on its own because there are very few limits on what can be alleged before a potential suit is evaluated and cleared to move forward. Those who want to post examples of the American legal system giving consumers too much power should focus on suits with a public record of the final judgement. Otherwise we're stuck with guessing what may have happened.

 

[me_little_me]

Frivolous lawsuit.

I disagree. Some of their claims appear to be frivolous but the fact remains that a husband died while on the train and his wife and their relatives will go through a lot of suffering and expense because of the accident and if the fault rested with Amtrak or BNSF, then they need to pay for their errors.

In lawsuits, the only real issue I have is with punitive damages. The purpose of these is to punish the defendant for what they did or failed to do. Great idea! Makes them think about what they should have been doing and makes them pay for their failures. However, IMHO, punitive damages should go, not to the plaintiff, but to the governments since basically they are a fine for bad behavior. The award for actual compensation and for pain and suffering rightly belong to the victim.

 

[Ryan]

...the fact remains that a husband died while on the train and his wife and their relatives will go through a lot of suffering and expense because of the accident and if the fault rested with Amtrak or BNSF, then they need to pay for their errors.

If the former condition is satisfied, then file a lawsuit. Don't break out the jump to conclusions mat and sue before anyone knows what actually happened.

 

[LookingGlassTie]

If the former condition is satisfied, then file a lawsuit. Don't break out the jump to conclusions mat and sue before anyone knows what actually happened.

Yep, this.

If it can be determined/established that Amtrak and/or BNSF is at fault in any way, then they should be held accountable. The timing of the initial filing though just seems like a "shark sensing blood in the water" scenario.

Lawyers by and large aren't exactly known for altruism, just saying.

We'll see what happens.............

 

[NSC1109]

I disagree. Some of their claims appear to be frivolous but the fact remains that a husband died while on the train and his wife and their relatives will go through a lot of suffering and expense because of the accident and if the fault rested with Amtrak or BNSF, then they need to pay for their errors.

In lawsuits, the only real issue I have is with punitive damages. The purpose of these is to punish the defendant for what they did or failed to do. Great idea! Makes them think about what they should have been doing and makes them pay for their failures. However, IMHO, punitive damages should go, not to the plaintiff, but to the governments since basically they are a fine for bad behavior. The award for actual compensation and for pain and suffering rightly belong to the victim.

Except the problem here is that the NTSB hasn’t even given a preliminary report as to what happened. We know two things:

7/27 was traveling UNDER the speed limit at the time of derailment (the lawsuit claims that the train failed to slow for the switch, called the Amtrak crew incompetent, etc)

7/27 derailed before the switch (lawsuit claims BNSF failed to operate the switch, signal, and PTC systems properly even though it doesn’t appear any of those systems had anything to do with the accident).

These idiots are literally throwing charges out there hoping something sticks. They’re even claiming that the crews did not abide by a rule book that’s not even in use west of Chicago.

Yes, I agree that if someone is responsible for the accident they should be called to answer for their actions or inactions. But it is WAY too early to be filing lawsuits and frankly if I were a member of the Amtrak crew and I knew I was called incompetent by some master of the universe personal claims lawyer I’d be hotter than the sun.

 

[JoeBas]

Your problem should be with the law not the lawyers. First to sue gets primacy rights, that's why they do it before the dust even settles.

It's not personal, it's just... good business.

 

[George Harris]

In recent years some railroads have begun to fight claims for such things as grade crossing accidents that in the past they would rather settle than fight. As a result there are now a number of cases where the payout has been zero. If this becomes consistent, a lot of these ambulance chasers will have to find a new way to make a living. An in-law with lawyers in their family refers to these lawyers with the billboards and TV ads as "ambulance chasers" saying good lawyers can make a good living without doing that sort of stuff.

 

[me_little_me]

If the former condition is satisfied, then file a lawsuit. Don't break out the jump to conclusions mat and sue before anyone knows what actually happened.

You are right. Lawyers want to be first for their benefit (gets others to sign up with them) and for the benefit of their clients (embarrasses Amtrak and BNSF in public). However, the victims have been damaged and either the RR and/or Amtrak were responsible. Virtually all accidents are preventable. One may feel the benefit outweighs the cost but the cost includes e.g. not only the money spent in more and/or better inspections, slower trains, etc. but the cost to human lives and property when the worst happens.

 

[NorthShore]

Yep, this.

If it can be determined/established that Amtrak and/or BNSF is at fault in any way, then they should be held accountable. The timing of the initial filing though just seems like a "shark sensing blood in the water" scenario.

Lawyers by and large aren't exactly known for altruism, just saying.

We'll see what happens.............

In some cases, filing fast can serve a purpose, particularly towards preservation of evidence and announcing that the matter will be taken seriously in call to account.

Of course, with NTSB investigating, all of that will be accomplished thoroughly, anyway, in this case.

 

[John Bredin]

Your problem should be with the law not the lawyers. First to sue gets primacy rights, that's why they do it before the dust even settles.

It's not personal, it's just... good business.

There's also discovery to consider. It's not necessarily a consideration in a regulated transportation industry where the NTSB will be preserving evidence from the get-go, but preserving and obtaining evidence can be vital. [NorthShore got the point in faster. ]

Sometimes, you think someone screwed up but you don't know until the evidence comes up in discovery. After all, you don't have the company records of that employee who may have screwed up or that machine that failed until you get them in discovery during litigation. And if you don't sue now, those records may, umm, "happen" to be shredded in the meantime.

If litigation had to wait until you know before you could even sue, like some are suggesting, you may never know because the information on how the other guy came to do what he did (or not do what he didn't do) is rarely your information.

The flipside is that you reasonably believe someone screwed up but then the evidence in discovery shows they didn't. Suing somebody is a long way from a judgment or even a settlement. Filing a complaint ain't like putting a dollar in a machine and a candy bar mechanically and invariably drops out. (Heck, actual vending machines aren't that certain.) Defendants move to dismiss truly frivolous claims, complaints are amended as discovery reveals more evidence, and defendants are dismissed out if the evidence from discovery shows a defendant was definitely not negligent.

Medical malpractice cases typically consist of suing every medical professional involved in treating the patient, not necessarily because the plaintiff or their attorney thinks every single one screwed up but to get the widest discovery, and then various defendants being dismissed out as the medical records show exactly who did exactly what exactly why.

While it's possible here that neither BNSF nor Amtrak was negligent and this was truly an accident, one or the other being responsible is a reasonable possibility and even both being responsible is theoretically possible. The fact that the apparent certitude attorneys project in a complaint -- which as others have said will almost surely be amended when BNSF, Amtrak, or both object to obvious errors -- can be off-putting or seem smug doesn't change that.

 

[joelkfla]

Virtually all accidents are preventable.

That may be true, but failure to take extraordinary actions to prevent them isn't (or shouldn't be) culpable negligence.

 

[neroden]

Arbitration clause is disfavored by Congress and will probably be thrown out.

I disagree. Some of their claims appear to be frivolous but the fact remains that a husband died while on the train and his wife and their relatives will go through a lot of suffering and expense because of the accident and if the fault rested with Amtrak or BNSF, then they need to pay for their errors.

In lawsuits, the only real issue I have is with punitive damages. The purpose of these is to punish the defendant for what they did or failed to do. Great idea! Makes them think about what they should have been doing and makes them pay for their failures. However, IMHO, punitive damages should go, not to the plaintiff, but to the governments since basically they are a fine for bad behavior. The award for actual compensation and for pain and suffering rightly belong to the victim.

Sometimes it's a local government which is being hit with punitive damages!

Many plaintiffs will dedicate punitive damages to a registered charity which is devoted to making sure the same abuse doesn't happen again, which I think is a good way to handle it.

 

[jis]

Yes, I agree that if someone is responsible for the accident they should be called to answer for their actions or inactions. But it is WAY too early to be filing lawsuits and frankly if I were a member of the Amtrak crew and I knew I was called incompetent by some master of the universe personal claims lawyer I’d be hotter than the sun.

I agree. But this law suit is almost a poster child example of sanity compared to some the so called "Kraken" cases that were filed and litigated after the election. It is only recently that a few of the lawyers involved have been sanctioned. So I guess all this is just par for the course in the legal profession these days, and courts are not really interested in fixing any of this. Perhaps they are already overextended dealing with all sort of BS. One wonders if this is sort of a real life denial of service attack unfolding.

 

[Exvalley]

If there was a problem with the track when the freight train rolled through earlier, this may get expensive for somebody.

 

[happycamper]

Does anyone know how the 2 people died? If they were in the cars that went over? Were they in coach or the sleeper? I have beee wandering if one if safer than the other???

 

[AmtrakBlue]

Does anyone know how the 2 people died? If they were in the cars that went over? Were they in coach or the sleeper? I have beee wandering if one if safer than the other???

3 people died and we probably won't know how, if ever, until the preliminary report comes out.

 

[MARC Rider]

Many plaintiffs will dedicate punitive damages to a registered charity which is devoted to making sure the same abuse doesn't happen again, which I think is a good way to handle it.

Of course, the plaintiff's attorney, who is probably being paid on a contingency fee basis gets the fee sweetened by the amount of the punitive damages.

And the defendant has to pay their attorney by the hour, so, unless they're a large corporation with very deep pockets, there's a limit as to how much they will fight the case. Heck, if costs more to fight the suit than to pay it out, even a corporation with deep pockets might just decide to settle even if there's little merit in the suit.

 

[happycamper]

3 people died and we probably won't know how, if ever, until the preliminary report comes out.

It is very sad that anyone died at all. In looking at the accident I am thankful that more were not seriously hurt than there were. Just wandering if there is anything we can learn from it. Thank you for answering.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Does anyone know how the 2 people died? If they were in the cars that went over? Were they in coach or the sleeper? I have beee wandering if one if safer than the other???

It’s very likely that you won’t want to know the details.

So much could have happened. In theory a sleeper could offer a little more safety but they can also trap you with no quick way of escape or receiving help.

It’s extra tough to think about when so many of us love taking the train and think about how these 2 couples had planned and were looking forward to the trip.

 

[jis]

At least one of the fatalities according to various news reports was in the SSL. Haven’t seen any info about the couple.

 

[George K]

At least one of the fatalities according to various new reports was in the SSL. Haven’t seen any info about the couple.

Not really a surprise, considering how "wide open" the SSL is. During a sudden deceleration, there's a lot more room to "travel" as opposed to a roomette or a bedroom.

 

[mvermeulen]

At least one of the fatalities according to various new reports was in the SSL. Haven’t seen any info about the couple.

Here is a news report that describes what you list - Oklahoma father, son recount Amtrak derailment

I also haven't seen anything about the couple.

 

[Cal]

Here is a news report that describes what you list - Oklahoma father, son recount Amtrak derailment

I also haven't seen anything about the couple.

""We helped to unbury two people that were buried in the cafe car below us.""

I wonder what they were buried under.

 

[MIrailfan]

I read on Amtraks site that you agree to binding arbitration when you buy a ticket. Terms and Conditions | Amtrak