Empire Builder flood disruptions

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I had to call Amtrak last night with a question about our upcoming trip ... I asked about the EB ... the agent said that they hope to have the EB running again April 14 ... not sure if that was the "official" Amtrak response, or his own thoughts.
 
Annulled through Wednesday substantiated on the EB Yahoo Group. The BNSF northern transcon is still open (and indeed only shut down for about half a day due to flooding), so my interpretation is either Amtrak is just being cautious or they are taking a few days to roll out a permanent switch to the New Rockford line. See this discussion on TrainOrders:

http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,2440641

Freeway flooding near Grand Forks:

http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/199793/

The Red River is falling at Fargo after cresting two feet lower than 2009. Still predicted to rise five feet in Grand Forks, to within 2 feet of 1997 (and higher than 2009 there).

Mark
 
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Interesting, I don't think Claude is being unreasonable in his posts on the amtrak FB page. What is the standard protocol in terms of providing food for coach pax with very long delays? I can sort of see his point in that what was supposed to be a 9 hour train ride has now turned into a 32 hour ordeal. What if he didn't bring any food or money because he thought he could go nine hours without eating? It is also very frustrating when the train stops just short of a station so that trapped pax could choose to disembark early if they wanted.
While I can see him being upset since it when from 9 hours to 32 hours that they should provide free emergency food like the rule state However do you suggest that amtrak open the car door and say "you want to walk the 3 miles to the station in who knows how deep water go ahead".
 
However do you suggest that amtrak open the car door and say "you want to walk the 3 miles to the station in who knows how deep water go ahead".
As I'm from the area, that's what I'd want to do if I were in coach. Heck, back up to Granville if you want (I imagine that they wyed the train there), I'll get off there and call a friend for a ride. It's not as if there was a blizzard happening, like when that Michigan train got stuck several winters ago.

If I were in a sleeper, of course, I'd just as soon enjoy the trip, no matter how long it took.
 
Also, is there any truth to the rumor being reported over at TrainOrders.com that Amtrak has agreed to a permanent re-routing of the Builder via the Surrey Cutoff ?

That is kind of sad, you don't want to lose the third largest city in a state. Is there a way to keep Grand Forks and still avoid Devils lake? :unsure:

I know there are tracks North of devils lake, who owns them and what are the chances of switching to those instead?
 
However do you suggest that amtrak open the car door and say "you want to walk the 3 miles to the station in who knows how deep water go ahead".
As I'm from the area, that's what I'd want to do if I were in coach. Heck, back up to Granville if you want (I imagine that they wyed the train there), I'll get off there and call a friend for a ride. It's not as if there was a blizzard happening, like when that Michigan train got stuck several winters ago.

If I were in a sleeper, of course, I'd just as soon enjoy the trip, no matter how long it took.
Amtrak should have their lawyers draw up some kind of "Trip Termination Waiver of Liability" or something. Basically says that by getting off the train you agree to not hold Amtrak liable for anything that happens to you starting the second your foot hits the ground, and (maybe) you waive any any claim to a refund or voucher of any type (perhaps refund your fare from the next station to your final destination or something). Keep a couple on the train, and if people want to set out on their own, Amtrak can wash their hands of you and send you on your way.
 
Also, is there any truth to the rumor being reported over at TrainOrders.com that Amtrak has agreed to a permanent re-routing of the Builder via the Surrey Cutoff ?

That is kind of sad, you don't want to lose the third largest city in a state. Is there a way to keep Grand Forks and still avoid Devils lake? :unsure:

I know there are tracks North of devils lake, who owns them and what are the chances of switching to those instead?

According to my maps, the Soo line owns those tracks. The detour would start in Rugby, and then go to just east of Dewar, and then to Conway. It would be a detour on the order of over 100 miles or so. One might as well take the Surrey Cutoff. Service to GFK can be restored when service is extended to Winnipeg.
 
According to my maps, the Soo line owns those tracks. The detour would start in Rugby, and then go to just east of Dewar, and then to Conway. It would be a detour on the order of over 100 miles or so. One might as well take the Surrey Cutoff. Service to GFK can be restored when service is extended to Winnipeg.
The Soo Line owns the tracks in question but leases them to the Northern Plains Railroad to operate. But there's no way you could run Amtrak on them. Not only are they only good for 10-25 mph, 60 miles have been abandoned between Bisbee and Kramer, making what was theoretically once a through-route two dead end branches.

Back to the Devils Lake line, there are now rumors floating around that the concessions BNSF will want from Amtrak to make the reroute on the Surrey Cutoff permanent could make fixing the problem on the traditional route more practicable. We might have a situation brewing like in the south, with UP demanding some pretty big things from Amtrak in order to make the Sunset Limited a daily train.
 
According to trainorders there's another break in the line at Harwood, between Fargo and Grand Forks.
That's common when flooding is as bad as it is this year. The last train on those tracks before they were cut was the #7 that got stranded before reaching Minot and had to turn back toward Fargo.

Grand Forks is now completely without rail service, due to all lines coming into the city either cut in order to put up a dike or underwater.

Edit: here's a view from Sunday of the flooding along Interstate 29 in the Harwood area. The road has since been shut down after being completely submerged. The railroad tracks are located on the right of the road, next to the pole line.

dsc00503.jpg


The full gallery of images from this date is available here.
 
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BNSF today reports all rail traffic in and around Grand Forks delayed by 30 hours minimum. Source: domino.bnsf.com
 
I hope everything is well about six weeks from now. Due to take the Empire to Chicago.
 
I see all #7/#8 trains are in "service disruption" status once again after a few weeks of trouble-free operations. Per a reliable source on the Empire Builder Yahoo group, high water between Rugby and Minot will force a re-route between Fargo and Minot on the Surrey cutoff. Depending on what happens with Devils Lake, this could be permanent - time will tell if Rugby, Devils Lake, and Grand Forks saw their last Amtrak train this morning.

#7(7) left Rugby this morning but never reported into Minot, so I'm wondering if that train got stuck on the wrong side of the high water...

Mark
How many days has it been since a regular transit of trains 7 and 8? You would think in that time frame a wide swath detour could have been negotiated with the freight lines.
 
Question, please...

If the re-route occurs, will there be any other concerns as to flooding along the route? I am scheduled Chi-Sea in mid May and am trying to figure out my game plan.

Thanks in advance for any input.
 
Service is supposed to resume tomorrow (4/14). Conflicting reports as to whether it will travel via Devils Lake or New Rockford, but at least as of now the Devils Lake routing is still out of service.

(Credit Mark Meyer on the EB Yahoo Group and RollinB on Trainorders)

Mark
 
Once the snowmelt flooding in North Dakota recedes (by the end of April at the latest) there should be no major flood concerns with the exception of Devils Lake (which can be circumvented by the re-route).

Mark

Question, please...

If the re-route occurs, will there be any other concerns as to flooding along the route? I am scheduled Chi-Sea in mid May and am trying to figure out my game plan.

Thanks in advance for any input.
 
Question, please...

If the re-route occurs, will there be any other concerns as to flooding along the route? I am scheduled Chi-Sea in mid May and am trying to figure out my game plan.

Thanks in advance for any input.
Since your trip is in the middle of May, I wouldn't worry. By mid-May North Dakota (except for the Devils Lake area) will be dried out, and the Empire Builder will be running either on its usual route or on the Surrey cut-off, if Devils Lake is still rising. I'm on #7 on May 30, and my principal concern is whether the buffaloaf will be on the menu.

EDIT: Beaten to the punch.
 
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Thanks for the input! I have been on many routes, the Builder included (30+ hours delayed) in the winter of...I believe 95-96....what a story! Never been at this time of year, though.....super important to us to take the route for scenery, etc...so I am hopeful it will all work out! Train from east to west for a cruise to Alaska....some don't get that it is really the train trip that I am most looking forward to!

Dan
 
However do you suggest that amtrak open the car door and say "you want to walk the 3 miles to the station in who knows how deep water go ahead".
As I'm from the area, that's what I'd want to do if I were in coach. Heck, back up to Granville if you want (I imagine that they wyed the train there), I'll get off there and call a friend for a ride. It's not as if there was a blizzard happening, like when that Michigan train got stuck several winters ago.

If I were in a sleeper, of course, I'd just as soon enjoy the trip, no matter how long it took.
So the "turn around don't drown" rule is just a myth?
 
Aloha

I don't know if last nights news has any bearing on this thread, but it said some dam, north of here (Vegas), was releasing water, to relieve northern flooding, that would raise the level of Lake Mead and Boulder Dam, by 20 feet.
 
Several posts talk about the "Surrey Cutoff" by-passing the flooded areas in east-central North Dakota. The name "Surrey Cutoff" comes from the town of Surrey, ND just east of Minot. The rails split at Surrey. From an eastbound perspective, one goes east to Devils Lake and to Grand Forks, the other goes southeast to Fargo. Click on the link to see a North Dakota rail map. The green (BNSF) line turning southeast just east of Minot and going almost straight to Fargo, is the "Surrey Cutoff." The Cutoff is obviously shorter and straighter than going through Devils Lake, Grand Forks, and south to Fargo. I got on Google Earth and followed the cutoff; it makes a beeline to Fargo.

http://www.business.nd.gov/uploads/resources/201/rail.jpg
 
So the "turn around don't drown" rule is just a myth?
Was U.S. Highway 2 flooded that day? I don't think so. There was some water over U.S. 83 north of Minot, but the highway wasn't closed. Was every road connection between Minot and Granville flooded that day? I doubt it. Remember also how flat this part of North Dakota is. You don't get high water velocities in springtime floods. That's one of the problems, the water just sits there.

Just because the rail line is unsafe to use doesn't mean that parallel roads are. As I wrote, I know that area's geography well, having lived there for many years and having driven or bicycled over most of the roads in Ward County. I'm not foolhardy, I just have limits to how long I enjoy sitting in coach. On the other hand, I can well understand any conductor's reluctance to countenance me jumping ship, lest he be held responsible for any misadventure I might suffer. After all, he doesn't know me.
 
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