Empire Builder flood disruptions

[cav1865]

I've been monitoring eastbound Empire Builder this week. It is on time almost to the minute all the way to Minot, ND. From Minot to Fargo,ND, EB loses almost 2 hours, probably still due to high water along most the route. Wish Amtrak would take the Surrey Cutoff.

 

[anir dendroica]

I've been monitoring eastbound Empire Builder this week. It is on time almost to the minute all the way to Minot, ND. From Minot to Fargo,ND, EB loses almost 2 hours, probably still due to high water along most the route. Wish Amtrak would take the Surrey Cutoff.

That might be happening soon. It was once reported that the Devils Lake route would close when the lake reached 1453 feet. By the looks of it the lake will reach that level very soon.

http://water.weather.gov/ahps2/hydrograph.php?wfo=fgf&gage=dcbn8&view=1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1%22

http://www.devilslakejournal.com/breaking/x132152004/Meeting-with-Sen-Conrad-reflects-stress-emotion-fighting-flooding-that-doesnt-end

The Surrey line was closed most of yesterday by a derailment. I wonder if BNSF sent any detour freights on the Devils Lake line. Probably not...

http://domino.bnsf.com/website/updates.nsf/updates-service-industrial/02467D666D28A6BD86257877003DCD5F?Open

Mark

 

[anir dendroica]

Amtrak reportedly issued a checked baggage embargo to Grand Forks today (presumably in anticipation of bypassing the station). Devils Lake is at 1452.95 feet, will pass 1453 tomorrow.

Mark

 

[cav1865]

EB four hours late into Chicago yesterday. Hope Amtrak at least try the Cutoff soon. We are riding EB to Chicago on 18 May and then change to Capitol Limited same day. We have only a 2 hour 15 minute window to make the change - doesn't look good. Maybe bustitution from MSP?

 

[Ispolkom]

I've been monitoring eastbound Empire Builder this week. It is on time almost to the minute all the way to Minot, ND. From Minot to Fargo,ND, EB loses almost 2 hours, probably still due to high water along most the route. Wish Amtrak would take the Surrey Cutoff.

I wouldn't be surprised if there are still slow orders because of high water on the Surrey cutoff. Changing over to the cutoff might not help on-time performance.

 

[henryj]

Article in Trains mag says it will cost almost 100 million to raise the bridges and track across Devils lake...and the route is only used by Amtrak. That money would be better spent paying the UP to run the Sunset Limited daily and restoring service to Phoenix, a city of 4 million, vs Grand Forks 52k. Could be better spent fixing up the track west of Hutchinson, KS and over Raton Pass for the SWC.

The Builder has been suspended off and on all winter and now the floods hit. Send that equipment down south to beef up the Sunset Limited.

 

[Ryan]

No matter how many times you repeat it, it's still a dumb idea that'll never happen.

 

[anir dendroica]

Article on Devils Lake situation:

http://www.kfgo.com/fm-headline-news.php?pageNum_rsTSnews2=0&totalRows_rsTSnews2=3746&ID=0000003937

Despite abysmal 20.9% OTP in February, the Empire Builder still had the highest ridership of any long-distance train: 31,586. The Sunset Limited had the lowest: 6,598. Multiply that by (7/3) for a daily run, and it is still only half of EB ridership. The trains run where the riders are, and if LD routes are cut the EB will be among the last to go. Winters are hard in the northland. Folks complain, but they still ride the train when the alternatives are just as bad.

Mark

 

[Gingee]

I wonder if those waters will be down in a few weeks? I don't have our times right in front of us but we will be coming into Chicago with the Empire and then transfering to our train that brings us back to Galesburg, Il.

 

[Grandpa D]

"We'll operate chartered motor coaches for about a month or so to represent the train to those three cities that will be losing service but in the end, we're not going to be able to sustain chartered motor coaches for a very long time. Again--along about a month--and we will operate without any scheduled stops then between Fargo and Minot."

Sounds like the Surrey cutoff may become permanent.

 

[anir dendroica]

I wonder if those waters will be down in a few weeks? I don't have our times right in front of us but we will be coming into Chicago with the Empire and then transfering to our train that brings us back to Galesburg, Il.

Devils Lake rises and falls on a long timescale - once the line goes under water it may be six months or ten years before it reappears. But unless you are boarding/detraining in Rugby, Devils Lake, or Grand Forks, there is no reason to worry. The detour route will be as fast as the current routing - probably faster given that they are skipping three stops and traveling a shorter route between Fargo and Minot. I expect Amtrak will eventually publish an updated timetable, adding a stop in New Rockford so that folks in central ND don't have to drive 140 miles to board a train that passes right by their homes.

 

[henryj]

Article on Devils Lake situation:

http://www.kfgo.com/fm-headline-news.php?pageNum_rsTSnews2=0&totalRows_rsTSnews2=3746&ID=0000003937

Despite abysmal 20.9% OTP in February, the Empire Builder still had the highest ridership of any long-distance train: 31,586. The Sunset Limited had the lowest: 6,598. Multiply that by (7/3) for a daily run, and it is still only half of EB ridership. The trains run where the riders are, and if LD routes are cut the EB will be among the last to go. Winters are hard in the northland. Folks complain, but they still ride the train when the alternatives are just as bad.

Mark

Daily service would greatly increase the popularity and availability of the Sunset route making it more attractive. You can't just multiply by 7/3 and get a valid answer. Amtrak ignores the Southwest because of the political situation, nothing to do with economics. Nothing has been done to improve this train. It gets second hand equipment and not much of it. You can't get a reservation on it because of the limited space. The schedule is ridiculous, particularly eastbound. It doesn't serve Phoenix, a metro area of 4 million even though it stops only 35 miles from it. Not even a van or bus. Amtrak runs trains where it gets political support and pressure to do so. Even so, the Sunset had the second highest increase in ridership in Fy2010 at 16.4%. So what I am saying is if Amtrak got serious about this route it would do just fine. They just don't five a hoot.

 

[George B]

Article on Devils Lake situation:

http://www.kfgo.com/fm-headline-news.php?pageNum_rsTSnews2=0&totalRows_rsTSnews2=3746&ID=0000003937

Despite abysmal 20.9% OTP in February, the Empire Builder still had the highest ridership of any long-distance train: 31,586. The Sunset Limited had the lowest: 6,598. Multiply that by (7/3) for a daily run, and it is still only half of EB ridership. The trains run where the riders are, and if LD routes are cut the EB will be among the last to go. Winters are hard in the northland. Folks complain, but they still ride the train when the alternatives are just as bad.

Mark

Daily service would greatly increase the popularity and availability of the Sunset route making it more attractive. You can't just multiply by 7/3 and get a valid answer. Amtrak ignores the Southwest because of the political situation, nothing to do with economics. Nothing has been done to improve this train. It gets second hand equipment and not much of it. You can't get a reservation on it because of the limited space. The schedule is ridiculous, particularly eastbound. It doesn't serve Phoenix, a metro area of 4 million even though it stops only 35 miles from it. Not even a van or bus. Amtrak runs trains where it gets political support and pressure to do so. Even so, the Sunset had the second highest increase in ridership in Fy2010 at 16.4%. So what I am saying is if Amtrak got serious about this route it would do just fine. They just don't five a hoot.

You can’t say that Amtrak does not serve Phoenix. Maricopa is only 30 minutes away from downtown Phoenix during the hours that the train arrives and departs. That is like saying an airline that flies into DFW International does not serve Fort Worth because it takes at least 30 minutes to get to DFW from downtown Fort Worth. You can take a shuttle or a taxi to Maricopa from anywhere in Phoenix. I’d rather drive to Maricopa than go to downtown Phoenix anyway.

Amtrak’s biggest operational problem on the SSL and TE is the host railroad….Union Pacific. They are not easy to deal with at all.

Having lived in Phoenix a long time, my opinion is that ridership would not increase much at all if Amtrak went to daily service on the SSL. Most people in Phoenix couldn’t tell a train from a bicycle, nor do they care to. Public transportation is a joke here considering this is the sixth largest city in the US. If people here want to go somewhere, they will drive their car to the huge airport we have and fly anywhere they need to go. They consider trains and busses to be an “East Coast” thing.

 

[henryj]

You can take a shuttle or a taxi to Maricopa from anywhere in Phoenix. I’d rather drive to Maricopa than go to downtown Phoenix anyway.
Having lived in Phoenix a long time, my opinion is that ridership would not increase much at all if Amtrak went to daily service on the SSL. Most people in Phoenix couldn’t tell a train from a bicycle, nor do they care to. Public transportation is a joke here considering this is the sixth largest city in the US. If people here want to go somewhere, they will drive their car to the huge airport we have and fly anywhere they need to go. They consider trains and busses to be an “East Coast” thing.

There is nothing in Maricopa and it's in the middle of nowhere. Amtrak gives no information on how to get to Phoenix, not even a phone number to call. If you happen to get off there and haven't made any plans or arangements you are just stuck. If you fly into any major airport there are numerous options for transportation. In doing the research I have only found one firm that will meet you at Maricopa or take you there. The fee is $50+ and you have to make reservations in advance. Phoenix is making great strides in public transportation with the new light rail line. As for people's attitude about trains, you can say that about most anywhere. Even in your northeast there are people that won't use the NEC, they would rather fly. And certainly the silver trains and auto train carry only a miniscule fraction of the total passengers going to Florida. Even in Europe where they have arguably the finest passenger railroads in the world a large number of passengers just fly. When the flights were cancelled due to the volcano in iceland last year you would have thought the world ended. People just sat in the airports without a thought of taking the train. So I don't see your point other than to just trash the Sunset Limited and anyone that supports it. Ridership will increase substantially if the service ever goes daily and would increase even more if Amtrak had the equipment and advertised it. But if you are asking me if trains will ever surpass flying in the southwest I would have to say no way. So the question is then, are any long distance trains worth running or saving given tne tiny role they play in the over all transportation picture?

 

[George B]

There is nothing in Maricopa and it's in the middle of nowhere. Amtrak gives no information on how to get to Phoenix, not even a phone number to call. If you happen to get off there and haven't made any plans or arangements you are just stuck. If you fly into any major airport there are numerous options for transportation. In doing the research I have only found one firm that will meet you at Maricopa or take you there. The fee is $50+ and you have to make reservations in advance. Phoenix is making great strides in public transportation with the new light rail line. As for people's attitude about trains, you can say that about most anywhere. Even in your northeast there are people that won't use the NEC, they would rather fly. And certainly the silver trains and auto train carry only a miniscule fraction of the total passengers going to Florida. Even in Europe where they have arguably the finest passenger railroads in the world a large number of passengers just fly. When the flights were cancelled due to the volcano in iceland last year you would have thought the world ended. People just sat in the airports without a thought of taking the train. So I don't see your point other than to just trash the Sunset Limited and anyone that supports it. Ridership will increase substantially if the service ever goes daily and would increase even more if Amtrak had the equipment and advertised it. But if you are asking me if trains will ever surpass flying in the southwest I would have to say no way. So the question is then, are any long distance trains worth running or saving given tne tiny role they play in the over all transportation picture?

Maricopa has a population of 45,000 and has quite a bit of business in and around it. I think you are remembering how it was 20 years ago when it was around 1300 people and really was nowhere. That said, I am not a fan or Maricopa at all, but at least people in Phoenix are within reasonable driving time of two East-West routes….the SWC in Flag and the SSL in Maricopa. It could be a lot worse for us.

You can say that most people in most places couldn’t care less about the trains. However, the attitude is much worse in Phoenix. They are trying to get light rail going here, but you can’t even really take a bus much of anywhere around town without it being a major hassle. Public transportation here is 35 to 50 years behind, and that is not an exaggeration.

I would love it if more people took the train, and I hope that the SSL goes to a daily schedule, as I often have to drive to Flagstaff instead to keep my trips on schedule due to the SSL’s staggered schedule. I think it would be great if there was daily rail service to and from Tucson or Flagstaff from Phoenix. But, I don’t share your opinion at all that ridership would increase. Since Amtrak is always short on capital and equipment, I can see them sacrificing route like the SSL to keep the Coast Starlight and Empire Builder going. I can’t blame them, either.

I did not ask if train ridership will ever match or surpass flying, as it is a silly question. Of course it never will. The people and the government have made it clear where they want to put their money and support…..getting there as fast and as conveniently as possible.

Are LD trains worth saving, you ask? As you have said, most of it is political. If you ever have Republicans in charge of the Senate, House, and the Presidency all at once, you can bet that most LD trains would disappear overnight. That is not a put-down of Republicans, it is just the political philosophy of that party.

I cannot stand how the government subsidizes the heck out of air travel. But, it is needed to keep the economy going. Does the national economy become weaker if they kill off all LD trains? Probably not. You can look at the state and local economies in a different way, as a decent percentage currently on LD train routes would see substantial economic loss. That’s why the Empire Builder has strong political support that starts at the local and state level.

In the end, I would bet that Amtrak looks just about the same in ten years as it does right now. I bet they will still be running the SSL on the same schedule for a number of reasons I will not get in to because this post is already too long. The problem is, I think the odds are just barely in favor of things being the same, or better.

 

[Mackensen]

There's another article today in the Minot Daily News. It definitely sounds like Amtrak's going ahead with the re-route, but only as an interim measure (publicly, anyway). I think this bit might be new:

But he said Amtrak would not be able to offer chartered bus service for a long time because of the expense.

I assume at least Grand Forks would get a Thruway connection in the event of a permanent re-route; Jefferson Lines still operates a couple buses a day between the two.

 

[WICT106]

Reading the exchanges here, I notice a slight similarity between the PHX - Maricopa situation and the Madison - Columbus, WI situation here in Wisconsin. I want to point out that when one doesn't stop directly in the City itself, ridership decreases, as there are those in the general public who refuse to travel to "that little town out there" in order to board the train. For those who contend that Maricopa serves PHX in a tolerable fashion, I state from personal experience that Columbus is, at best, a barely acceptable effort to serve the Madison/Dane County market.

 

[eagle628]

Daily service would greatly increase the popularity and availability of the Sunset route making it more attractive. You can't just multiply by 7/3 and get a valid answer. Amtrak ignores the Southwest because of the political situation, nothing to do with economics. Nothing has been done to improve this train. It gets second hand equipment and not much of it. You can't get a reservation on it because of the limited space. The schedule is ridiculous, particularly eastbound. It doesn't serve Phoenix, a metro area of 4 million even though it stops only 35 miles from it. Not even a van or bus. Amtrak runs trains where it gets political support and pressure to do so. Even so, the Sunset had the second highest increase in ridership in Fy2010 at 16.4%. So what I am saying is if Amtrak got serious about this route it would do just fine. They just don't five a hoot.

Amtrak is a creature of politics and always will be. Of course they're going to operate the best service they can to the areas that have traditionally been supportive to rail service. What's the point of pouring money into a region that couldn't care less about rail service and whose politicians have always been hostile towards Amtrak? It's the same principle that led to Harley's Hornet. Why would Amtrak spend precious money on the Sunset instead of the Builder? As long as they plan to spend money on long-distance trains, does it not make sense to spend money on trains where there is existing support for them? If politicians support rail service on the Builder's route but not on the Sunset's, why would Amtrak not support the area that has supported it?

 

[fairviewroad]

There are some of us who tune into this thread for the latest developments on the Empire Builder

situation. Can we please not turn this into another Sunset Limited thread?

 

[henryj]

There are some of us who tune into this thread for the latest developments on the Empire Builder

situation. Can we please not turn this into another Sunset Limited thread?

Yes, and I apologize.

 

[cav1865]

We're going to ride the Empire Builder from Montana to Chicago on 18 May, so I am monitoring EB's arrival and departure times on its route. I'm still surprised at how much time EB loses once it hits North Dakota. It is reasonably on time through Montana and into Minot, but it still loses over 2 hours from Minot through Grand Forks and to Fargo. Coming west, EB is always 2 hours late once it gets to Montana: again, probably from slow-order pace through North Dakota. From Grand Forks to Fargo, EB must be on a very slow-order pace to consistently lose this much time. You have to wonder when Amtrak is going to decide to take the Surrey Cutoff and bustitution from Devils Lake, Rugby, and Grand Forks. The assumption being the Surrey Cutoff can't be any worse.

 

[Lynn]

After reading these posts, I am wondering if there is anyone that knows for sure if the EB is in fact using the Surrey Cutoff as of today, or if it will be using it this week? And if so- wouldn't this logically be a quicker route time and mileage wise from Minot to Fargo? I see the eastbound EB was 9 hrs late into CHI on 5/1- 9 hrs! How can anyone catch a Michigan connection train when the EB is this late into CHI? Does anyone have any concrete answers as to if the Surrey Cutoff is being used now or would be in service by May 19th? Just unreal how late the EB is arriving in Fargo.

 

[Bob Dylan]

After reading these posts, I am wondering if there is anyone that knows for sure if the EB is in fact using the Surrey Cutoff as of today, or if it will be using it this week? And if so- wouldn't this logically be a quicker route time and mileage wise from Minot to Fargo? I see the eastbound EB was 9 hrs late into CHI on 5/1- 9 hrs! How can anyone catch a Michigan connection train when the EB is this late into CHI? Does anyone have any concrete answers as to if the Surrey Cutoff is being used now or would be in service by May 19th? Just unreal how late the EB is arriving in Fargo.

It's just not Flooding causing Delays, did you Catch the Video of the Blizzard Snow Storm Up that Way, ?? Tough Winter/Spring on the HighLine and Midwest and Southeast for sure! Everyones ready for Summer I think! (No cracks about Endless Summer in SOCO are allowed, we Won't discuss Fires/Mudslides and Earthquakes here! :lol: :lol: :lol: )

 

[Hawkeye]

I am taking the EB to Chicago and then onto DC vis the CL the third week in May...what happens if we get to Chicago late and the CL has already left?

 

[Ispolkom]

It's just not Flooding causing Delays, did you Catch the Video of the Blizzard Snow Storm Up that Way, ??

My mother in Minot grumbled this weekend that you know it's spring in North Dakota because you get both blizzard warnings and flood warnings at the same time.

Even if Amtrak switches to the Surrey cutoff, I'd not be surprised by a couple of hours delay through North Dakota. Snow is still melting (many places got all time snow records this winter), and I'll bet there are lots of soft sections of track.

Things should improve quickly in the next couple of weeks, if No. Dak. gets a break from rain and snow, and the spring melt drains more. It should be a great year for ducks and white pelicans in North Dakota, if not for farmers and railroadmen.