Empire Builder Seattle Turn

[Seaboard92]

Too cold up here to do much outside, so went through the LD timetables and calculated all of the shortest turnaround times for the same trainset at the endpoints. Here are the ones with less than 6hr 15min for the EB at SEA:

• 4hr 15min for the SM at NYP
• 3hr 0min for the CL at WAS
• 0hr 29min for the CRES at NYP

None of those are same day turns. All are overnight.

I've actually observed the outbound 29 being shoved into Union Station as inbound 30 is being shoved to Ivy City.

At one point when the Silver Meteor ran on the later schedule out of NYP it did same day turn.

Trains that do same day turn before Covid.

Chicago, IL
-Capitol Limited
-Lake Shore Limited
-Cardinal (most operating days)
-City of New Orleans
-Blue Water
-Pere Marquette

Kansas City, MO/St. Louis, MO
-Missouri River Runner

Portland, OR/Seattle, WA
-Empire Builder

Los Angeles, CA
-Sunset Limited (Except Saturdays 1)

Charlotte, NC
-Piedmont

Fort Worth, TX
-Heartland Flyer

 

[niemi24s]

None of those are same day turns. All are overnight.

Yup! I now see how I messed up. Should have found some other way to kill time.

 

[Willbridge]

None of those are same day turns. All are overnight.

I've actually observed the outbound 29 being shoved into Union Station as inbound 30 is being shoved to Ivy City.

At one point when the Silver Meteor ran on the later schedule out of NYP it did same day turn.

Trains that do same day turn before Covid.

Chicago, IL
-Capitol Limited
-Lake Shore Limited
-Cardinal (most operating days)
-City of New Orleans
-Blue Water
-Pere Marquette

Kansas City, MO/St. Louis, MO
-Missouri River Runner

Portland, OR/Seattle, WA
-Empire Builder

Los Angeles, CA
-Sunset Limited (Except Saturdays 1)

Charlotte, NC
-Piedmont

Fort Worth, TX
-Heartland Flyer

A few years ago I had a dinner at Philippe's in LA with a movie producer. (People who have eaten there will know that was a novel experience for both of us for different reasons.) We were there instead of being in the dining car of the SW Chief because Train 4 was originating late due to having come in late as Train 3. Have they added a trainset to the turn in LA? I still see Train 4 departing late from time to time.

 

[Willbridge]

Seattle and Portland are used to tight turns on the streamliners. Checking the Summer 1965 schedules the NP turned the North Coast Limited in Seattle in five hours. The SP&S turned Trains 1/2 in eight hours. Every 5th day it had a flat-top sleeper instead of a dome sleeper "in memory" of the Granite Falls, Idaho wreck.

Some cars may be turned quicker than others. I remember seeing SP&S Train 2 departing Portland with heavyweight diner 'Willamette' complete with flowers in cut glass vases at each table. Lightweight diner 'Columbia' (which later was used on Amtrak) had arrived too late to be cleaned and stocked. Sleeper-lounge 'Mt. Hood' was used almost every day on the 760-mile round-trip and outlasted the SP&S to be acquired for excursions. Its sister, 'Mt. St. Helens' was rarely used and became a victim of rust.

For a corridor service, I have seen Pool 408 turned in Portland in 45 minutes to become Pool 407. This was done with engines in an A-B-A formation run around the consist. A second RPO was used, so it was already loaded. When the power was pulled off of the consist the RPO came with it and was dropped on the other side of the high shed. Then the engines picked up the loaded originating RPO and went down to the new head end. The postal clerks were working through the switching. As a teenager watching all this (I was permitted to go out on the platform because the station master knew I'd be careful) the best part was watching the REA messenger armed with a revolver escorting the padlocked strong box to their terminal.

Back to turning today's Empire Builder... I have noticed that where there was a good operation it just continued on Amtrak unless interrupted for a lengthy period.

 

[niemi24s]

Now I'm really confused. Everyone seems to agree that if there's no "extra" (protection?) trainset in SEA on a Saturday and under this 3X a week schedule, then the EB needs to make a 6 hour same day turn to head back to CHI:

EB's arriving on Mo and We have the luxury of overnight turns under those conditions as they depart on Tu and Th.

If that's true, then I can't understand why (under those same 3X a week, no "extra" trainset conditions) the CL wouldn't have to make same day turns in WAS on Fr and Su. . .

. . .with only the Tu arrival having the luxury of an overnight turn. But 3 hour turns on Fr and Su would seem virtually impossible - especially with Covid cleaning requirements

I was just trying to understand why an extra/protection trainset was so important under some circumstance. Maybe my edit in Post #25 didn't state the conditions cearly enough when saying. . .

[Edit] Too cold up here to do much outside, so went through the LD timetables and calculated all of the shortest turnaround times for the same trainset at the endpoints. Here are the ones with less than 6hr 15min for the EB at SEA:

• 4hr 15min for the SM at NYP
• 3hr 0min for the CL at WAS
• 0hr 29min for the CRES at NYP

. . .to which Seaboard92 responded with. . .

None of those are same day turns. All are overnight.

But there may be something I still don't comprehend. If so, please enlighten me.

 

[Trogdor]

Now I'm really confused. Everyone seems to agree that if there's no "extra" (protection?) trainset in SEA on a Saturday and under this 3X a week schedule, then the EB needs to make a 6 hour same day turn to head back to CHI:
View attachment 20630
EB's arriving on Mo and We have the luxury of overnight turns under those conditions as they depart on Tu and Th.

If that's true, then I can't understand why (under those same 3X a week, no "extra" trainset conditions) the CL wouldn't have to make same day turns in WAS on Fr and Su. . .
View attachment 20632
. . .with only the Tu arrival having the luxury of an overnight turn. But 3 hour turns on Fr and Su would seem virtually impossible - especially with Covid cleaning requirements

I was just trying to understand why an extra/protection trainset was so important under some circumstance. Maybe my edit in Post #25 didn't state the conditions cearly enough when saying. . .

. . .to which Seaboard92 responded with. . .


But there may be something I still don't comprehend. If so, please enlighten me.

The Empire Builder has 6 hours to turn, the Capitol Limited would have 3 if it was same-day. The Ivy City yard in DC is also considerably busier than the yard in Seattle (with hourly regionals, hourly Acelas, etc. and all that goes into handling those trains, plus the frequent train movements between the yard and the station amongst all the various train services going into WAS). During the day, Seattle only sees a couple of Cascades trains between when the Builder arrives and departs, and those might even do station-turns without going down to the yard. Therefore, crews in Seattle can dedicate more of their time to servicing and turning the Empire Builder than crews in DC can dedicate to servicing the Capitol Limited. Hence, the Capitol’s turn is actually 27 hours, not 3 hours.

When the Builder is running normally, it can be turned in 6 hours. However, when there were periods of major delays, they’d sometimes add an extra set to give a 30-hour scheduled turn because the delays themselves would be greater than the 6 hours required for a same-day turn.

 

[Cal]

Trains that do same day turn before Covid.


Los Angeles, CA
-Sunset Limited (Except Saturdays 1)

I believe the Chief did a same-day turn. As it arrives well before 10 AM and departs at 6 PM if on time. That gives them eight+ hours Possibly even ten. And Los Angeles, while having regular surfliner service, isn't extremely busy. In fact I am pretty sure I saw some same-day turns when I wanted to see a heritage unit that came in the morning.

 

[niemi24s]

. . . the Capitol Limited would have 3 if it was same-day.

Good. That's what I thought I said and is the reason why an extra/protection trainset is so important for the CL in WAS on Tu and Fr with the current 3X schedule. A more critical example would be the Crescent in NYP on Mo with only 29 minutes between arrival and departure - clearly impossible with the same trainset with the current 3X schedule.

 

[Trogdor]

Good. That's what I thought I said and is the reason why an extra/protection trainset is so important for the CL in WAS on Tu and Fr with the current 3X schedule. A more critical example would be the Crescent in NYP on Mo with only 29 minutes between arrival and departure - clearly impossible with the same trainset with the current 3X schedule.

It wasn't clear what you were saying, but seemed to imply that the Capitol Limited ought to turn in 3 hours. That has never (at least, in the context of recent history with those general arrival and departure times over the past couple of decades or more) been the case. The Capitol Limited's normal schedule was always to spend the night in DC. In that sense, there isn't an "extra" set or a protect set for the route. That's just the regular equipment rotation.

The Crescent is another example where the 29-minute difference between arrival and departure is irrelevant because that schedule was never intended to be a same-day turn under any circumstance, regardless of whether the train operates 3x weekly or every day.

 

[niemi24s]

The Crescent is another example where the 29-minute difference between arrival and departure is irrelevant. . .

Irrelevant to you perhaps, but relevant to me as it provides a simple explanation of why it cannot do (and therefore was never intended to do) a same-day turn.

 

[jis]

I believe the Chief did a same-day turn. As it arrives well before 10 AM and departs at 6 PM if on time. That gives them eight+ hours Possibly even ten. And Los Angeles, while having regular surfliner service, isn't extremely busy. In fact I am pretty sure I saw some same-day turns when I wanted to see a heritage unit that came in the morning.

Yes. The Chief has always been a same day turn in LAX.

Actually one of the issues with diverting it via Pueblo is that it would make the same day turn in LAX unreliable given the possible reduction in schedule reliability and shorter time to turn in LAX. That would lead to the need for an additional consist, which of course is hard to come by.

 

[Cal]

Actually one of the issues with diverting it via Pueblo is that it would make the same day turn in LAX unreliable given the possible reduction in schedule reliability and shorter time to turn in LAX. That would lead to the need for an additional consist, which of course is hard to come by.

Interesting to know

I don't why, but I never knew that Amtrak was this limited on superliners...

 

[Willbridge]

Yes. The Chief has always been a same day turn in LAX.

Actually one of the issues with diverting it via Pueblo is that it would make the same day turn in LAX unreliable given the possible reduction in schedule reliability and shorter time to turn in LAX. That would lead to the need for an additional consist, which of course is hard to come by.

That's why I asked the question. We had figured that out some years ago.

Running via Walsenburg at former Texas Zephyr speeds adds about an hour in each direction. That would permit abandoning the segment through the Army training area, so there's a saving, but not as much as the cost of a train-set of Superliners. Alternatively, switching a Front Range section at La Junta at typical Amtrak times adds about 45-50 minutes in each direction.

There are some other solutions that do not slow down Trains 3/4 but each has its own problems. The Santa Fe's last service in 1971 was a separate LAJ<>DEN coach train. Another alternative, if Trains 1/2 and'/or 21/22 came into LAX daily, would be to interline the trains, so that Train 1 would become 4 and 3 would become 2. There are some weirder alternatives but I daren't suggest them for fear they would be implemented.

The marketing trade-off for the extra time via Walsenburg is an hour more of the Rocky Mountain scenery and adding about 170,000 population. The marketing value of LAJ<>COS access is that it adds about 600,000 population on line and more within bus or family car distance.

Getting back to the Empire Builder turns. My original paper on the Portland/California section described a route via the UP from Portland to Villard Junction and then on the BN to Pasco. I was biased toward the Oregon side due to working for ODOT but that would have added about 45 minutes in each direction. At the time, the connecting Coast Starlight ran via the faster west side of the Sacramento Valley. Thankfully, when Amtrak picked up the idea and realized that it would generate passenger miles by connecting California with Glacier Park, the Twin Cities, etc. they put it on the North Bank line. When the Starlight was shifted to the East Side Sacramento Valley line the extra time cut into the Train 14 to Train 28 connection and running Train 28 on the Oregon side would have caused more misconnects.

Also, thankfully, they didn't take my suggestion of a through sleeper LAX<>MSP. It would have saved two Superliner sleepers but the 14 to 28 connection would have created problems.

For those new at this I hope that this discussion offers a glimpse of why schedule adherence has even more consequences and costs than the personal problems we experience as customers.

 

[Cal]

There are some other solutions that do not slow down Trains 3/4 but each has its own problems. The Santa Fe's last service in 1971 was a separate LAJ<>DEN coach train. Another alternative, if Trains 1/2 and'/or 21/22 came into LAX daily, would be to interline the trains, so that Train 1 would become 4 and 3 would become 2. There are some weirder alternatives but I daren't suggest them for fear they would be implemented.

Wouldn't that require an annoying amount of switching for the crews though? They would have to, on many days, add in a sleeper (and in rare cases, two) in the front, and take off a coach. Sometimes replacing it with a surfliner. This would mean doing, or vice versa, twice a day. I would think that's not ideal.

 

[jis]

That's why I asked the question. We had figured that out some years ago.

Running via Walsenburg at former Texas Zephyr speeds adds about an hour in each direction. That would permit abandoning the segment through the Army training area, so there's a saving, but not as much as the cost of a train-set of Superliners. Alternatively, switching a Front Range section at La Junta at typical Amtrak times adds about 45-50 minutes in each direction.

Yes. there are several alternatives to consider.

There are some other solutions that do not slow down Trains 3/4 but each has its own problems. The Santa Fe's last service in 1971 was a separate LAJ<>DEN coach train. Another alternative, if Trains 1/2 and'/or 21/22 came into LAX daily, would be to interline the trains, so that Train 1 would become 4 and 3 would become 2. There are some weirder alternatives but I daren't suggest them for fear they would be implemented.

This has been done on occasions when a Sunset consist was available and 3 arrived too late to turn it in time for 4, but had enough time to turn for 2. Rare, but has been done occasionally.

The marketing trade-off for the extra time via Walsenburg is an hour more of the Rocky Mountain scenery and adding about 170,000 population. The marketing value of LAJ<>COS access is that it adds about 600,000 population on line and more within bus or family car distance.

Indeed, those sorts of numbers would justify an additional consist for 3/4, if there were that many additional cars available on a regular basis.

One sad thing is that equipment utilization is pretty marginal on many of the LD routes with routine layovers approaching 24 hours on many routes. This would add the SWC at the LAX end to that list. They are already laid over close to 24 hours at the CHI end.

Getting back to the Empire Builder turns. My original paper on the Portland/California section described a route via the UP from Portland to Villard Junction and then on the BN to Pasco. I was biased toward the Oregon side due to working for ODOT but that would have added about 45 minutes in each direction. At the time, the connecting Coast Starlight ran via the faster west side of the Sacramento Valley. Thankfully, when Amtrak picked up the idea and realized that it would generate passenger miles by connecting California with Glacier Park, the Twin Cities, etc. they put it on the North Bank line. When the Starlight was shifted to the East Side Sacramento Valley line the extra time cut into the Train 14 to Train 28 connection and running Train 28 on the Oregon side would have caused more misconnects.

That would have crossed that neat bridge I have seen across the Columbia. Frankly I kind of liked the south bank of Columbia run on UP of the Pioneer as long as it lasted. Is it the slightly more populated bank?

I understand due to removal of a couple of crossovers now it is impossible to get to the UP trackage up Columbia Gorge from the Iron Bridge crossing of the Willamette from Portland Union Station?

Also, thankfully, they didn't take my suggestion of a through sleeper LAX<>MSP. It would have saved two Superliner sleepers but the 14 to 28 connection would have created problems.

Yeah 14 to 28 can get very iffy very quickly.

For those new at this I hope that this discussion offers a glimpse of why schedule adherence has even more consequences and costs than the personal problems we experience as customers.

Two things are important and they sort of pull in the opposite directions. Schedule adherence is important for making connections and turns. Shorter running times leads eventually in equipment saving as fewer consists are required to serve the same service. But shorter run times done at the cost of schedule reliability is a fool's errand, since all it does is it gums up the works and makes everything less predictable, which is a bad thing.

 

[niemi24s]

Disregarding such things as the timetables, crew availability, and other train traffic got to wondering which LD end points would be the quickest and slowest for just reversing the direction of an incoming train My guesses are:

• Quickest - MIA because the reversing loop encircles the station
• Slowest - NYP because the reversing loop around Sunnyside Yard is a round trip of over 8 miles

How good are these guesses?

 

[Chris I]

Disregarding such things as the timetables, crew availability, and other train traffic got to wondering which LD end points would be the quickest and slowest for just reversing the direction of an incoming train My guesses are:

• Quickest - MIA because the reversing loop encircles the station
• Slowest - NYP because the reversing loop around Sunnyside Yard is a round trip of over 8 miles

How good are these guesses?

I think PDX is also pretty quick. They send the Empire Builder east of the Steel bridge, and there is a Y they use to turn it around. Can't be more than half a mile total.

That's pretty crazy for NYP. Would it make more sense to utilize double-ended trains for the lines that terminate there? This definitely speeds up turns on Cascades in Seattle and Portland.

 

[Cal]

Disregarding such things as the timetables, crew availability, and other train traffic got to wondering which LD end points would be the quickest and slowest for just reversing the direction of an incoming train My guesses are:

• Quickest - MIA because the reversing loop encircles the station
• Slowest - NYP because the reversing loop around Sunnyside Yard is a round trip of over 8 miles

How good are these guesses?

Doesn't LA have a quick turn? There's a wye as you enter the station, right where the Eagle, Starlight, and Chief come onto the same tracks. They barely have to reverse a half mile before they can turn around.

 

[jis]

I think PDX is also pretty quick. They send the Empire Builder east of the Steel bridge, and there is a Y they use to turn it around. Can't be more than half a mile total.

That's pretty crazy for NYP. Would it make more sense to utilize double-ended trains for the lines that terminate there? This definitely speeds up turns on Cascades in Seattle and Portland.

Most terminating trains are restocked at New York and the Commissary is in Sunnyside and not in Penn Station, so trains have to go to Sunnyside to be prepared for their return journey. There are exceptions like the Keystones, which sometimes turn in the station as they are double ended. An occasional Acela might turn in the station but is unusual.

Generally turning a train in the station on the through tracks impedes the general flow thus reducing capacity, and is strictly avoided during rush hours. Such things become quite important when a train is arriving every 1.5 minutes through the Hudson Tubes, and even more frequently form LIRR from the other end. Incidentally at that point LIRR also runs the station as through station with trains running through to/from the West Side Yard, even though they only run EMUs or double headed push pulls.

In Miami the train has to back out of the station platform tracks to access the loop track so in some sense that is a more convoluted move than at New York Penn Station where it is a straight run through to the loop and then into Sunnyside Yard. It should be noted that almost no train coming from Boston side terminates in Penn Station NY.

Chicago has a relatively simple turn too using the BNSF Wye and then straight into 14th St. Yard. So much so that sometimes an arriving train is turned and backed into the station for arrival, specially if it is arriving very late and requires a quick turnaround.

Washington DC has a Wye right next to the station and then straight into Ivy City Yard.

New Orleans in principle would likely be slower than New York, but an arriving train is usually Wyed and then backed into the station.

LAX IIRC has a Wye at Mission Tower just outside the station.

 

[Cal]

Chicago has a relatively simple turn too using the BNSF Wye and then straight into 14th St. Yard. So much so that sometimes an arriving train is turned and backed into the station for arrival, specially if it is arriving very late and requires a quick turnaround.

How often do BNSF trains even use that track? Isn't it practically all Amtrak..

New Orleans in principle would likely be slower than New York, but an arriving train is usually Wyed and then backed into the station.

What Wye do they use? On transit docs I don't see any convenient ones. And what facility do they use to turn trains? (Cleaning, refueling, etc)

 

[niemi24s]

Do trains arriving in MIA ever run the loop first and then back into the station?

 

[jis]

How often do BNSF trains even use that track? Isn't it practically all Amtrak..

All the Metra BNSF trains towards Aurora go that way. Many many more than Amtrak

What Wye do they use? On transit docs I don't see any convenient ones. And what facility do they use to turn trains? (Cleaning, refueling, etc)

I think they use the Wye by the Amtrak Loco Shop. Often arriving trains go through the Wye and back into the station, mainly because it is less work to do it that way given the track layout. Trains are serviced at the New Orleans Maintenance Facility which lies between the station and the Loco Shop.

Do trains arriving in MIA ever run the loop first and then back into the station?

One should never say never, but I have yet to hear of such an occurrence.

 

[Trogdor]

From a strictly "turning" perspective, isn't San Antonio the quickest, because the Texas Eagle arrives and departs to/from different direction, with the station itself effectively being in the middle of a big loop?

 

[Cal]

All the Metra BNSF trains towards Aurora go that way. Many many more than Amtrak

Yea but- Well.. No freight traffic goes there

 

[jis]

Yea but- Well.. No freight traffic goes there

True. But those Metra trains are BNSF trains operated by BNSF.