Empire Builder Summer Blues Started Early this year

[montana mike]

I have been following the travails of the EB's both east and west bound and the delays are starting early this year! We haven't even gotten into the "hot" season yet and delays of 2+ hours into Chicago are becoming the norm (over 3 hours yesterday). It would appear the causes for these delays are many and not necessarily related--weather, construction, slow orders, crew issues, heavy freight traffic, mechanical, et. al. For example, I note that every day now for the past several weeks both east and westbound EBs have lost 60-90 minutes between Fargo and Grand Forks alone (construction).

I take this train fairly frequently and this spring, even with the flooding, the trips were quite close to staying on schedule, but it appears that we are in for a lonnnnnnng summer for folks traveling on Empire Builder. This will cause many passengers who have connections with other trains or other forms of transportation to miss them. Bummer.

 

[D.P. Roberts]

This will cause many passengers who have connections with other trains or other forms of transportation to miss them. Bummer.

The connection between the eastbound EB and the eastbound CL is particularly tight at only 135 minutes, but the EB has been averaging 102 minutes late over the past month. I have no idea whether the eastbound CL has been held for a late-arriving EB or not, but in 26 days the EB has missed the CL departure 8 times (31%).

Personally, I'm assuming that I'm going to miss that connection. As of now, on my travel day there's room on the later-departing LSL for some coach & sleeper pax, but I have no idea how much room, and who knows if it will sell out between now and then. Personally, I've built an extra day into my schedule just in case his happens. At worst, I get an extra day in Chicago, with food and shelter at Amtrak's expense. However, I would best that most passengers can't plan on that.

I wonder if there are even bigger headaches if the EB misses those connections multiple days in a row, as it has now.

 

[tomfuller]

If you have an extra day built into your schedule, consider taking the EB only as far as MKE. Spend the night in MKE and then take a Hiawatha any time the next day up until the 3PM departure

 

[crescent2]

What is Amtrak's usual remedy for the missed connections from the EB? Apparently, from this thread, they're being missed a LOT lately. Can they bus passengers to catch up with the train at a later stop? I'm trying to plan an AGR trip for next year in sleepers. I cannot sleep in coach at all, so having to reschedule on the next day's trains would be a bummer (assuming sleepers are all sold out). Thanks-

When do the EB's "Summer Blues" usually start and end? My travel dates are flexible.

 

[Ryan]

Here's what last year's looked like:

The heavy line is a 10 day moving average that helps smooth the data out a little bit. The raw data is the fine line in the background.

I think that the general consensus is that last year was a particularly bad year. I have the data for other years laying around, I need to unpack it and check it out.

 

[crescent2]

Thanks for your data, Ryan. Don't worry about previous years. From the graph, it looks a bit scary for making a 2 hr. connection. I'd love to take the Cardinal, but IDK about that close connection time!

 

[amamba]

Crescent, I was on a very late EB last year. They brought on a customer service rep at some point prior to MKE. They called people down to the SSL by their train connection number to get vouchers for hotels, etc. We arrived in time for the next day's LSL and some folks were put on the LSL in coach and some in sleeper - but I think there were sleepers open because the train behind us was also too late to make the connection to the LSL. The CONO was held for my train and they added an extra coach onto the LSL for the extra pax.

 

[D.P. Roberts]

Here's what last year's looked like:

The heavy line is a 10 day moving average that helps smooth the data out a little bit. The raw data is the fine line in the background.

I think that the general consensus is that last year was a particularly bad year. I have the data for other years laying around, I need to unpack it and check it out.

Wow, thanks for the graph, that's really eye-opening.

Even going by the actual fine line data, it looks like the EB missed the CL & Cardinal connection almost continuously from mid June to the end of August. That's pretty bad, even by Amtrak's standards.

 

[crescent2]

Amamba, thanks. It's looking like the CONO would be safer. The Cardinal sounds like a very scenic route--but not if you're not on it.

 

[montana mike]

I have always made the CONO and LSL on my connections, but the CL has been missed more than made. My best on time trips have been in the late winter and early spring (before the red river floods) and fall. Mid summer--July and August are usually slow. Just the fact the the EB is always full and takes extra time at almost every stop, then coupled with increased freight traffic, heat slow orders and the clincher--lots of track work--usually mean 2-3 hour delays into CHI and lesser delays for intermediate stops. Interestingly westbound the arrival times are not as bad--partly due to a lot more padding in the schedule and perhaps less freight issues, but that's just a guess..

 

[crescent2]

Any suggestions for the best time of year? Summer seems to have its problems. Where is the best scenery eastbound, and how much of it is missed when daylight hours are shorter? Thanks-

 

[Texan Eagle]

All of these are for the eastbound, but what about westbound? I am scheduled to be taking the EB from CHI to PDX, connecting to the southbound CS to Bay Area over the July 4th weekend. How are things looking in terms of delays and missed connections? Should I be worried already?

 

[D T Nelson]

What is Amtrak's usual remedy for the missed connections from the EB?

I was on the EB in March, eastbound, connecting to the CL. We left Seattle about 90 minutes late due to the last-minute need to remake the train to include a working dining car. We made up some time in Washington and Montana, but lost time again in North Dakota and wound up getting into Chicago about 3.5 hours late. The CL was long gone. We were met on the platform by very nice customer service reps with clipboards who asked us our names and told us what our fate was. Many, but not all, of us DC-bound passengers were ushered to a conference room to wait to board buses for a three-hour ride to Indianapolis where the Cardinal would be waiting for us -- although the Cardinal left Chicago about a half-hour before the CL it is so slow a bus that could not catch the CL could catch it. We were given new tickets and led out to the curb and we boarded the buses. My bus was not crowded and I had a seat pair to myself. The buses arrived in Indy a few minutes before the Cardinal was scheduled to depart, and after pax and baggage were loaded it left about 15 minutes late. I wound up getting to DC about six hours later than originally scheduled, so it worked out about as well as it could have.

I was the only sleeper passenger to get rebooked in a sleeping compartment. I got the accessible room, the only vacant room. I know there were at least three other people booked in sleepers on the CL who rode the Cardinal in coach. I'm not sure how it was that I got that room and the others had to ride in coach. Maybe because I paid for my ticket with cash money and not AGR points? Or I paid more for my room than the other people did? I know the airlines have such rules for rebooking people. I remember one Amtrak employee saying something to the effect of "We guarantee you transportation, but we do not guarantee a level of accommodation," in response to a man asking if he could opt to spend the night in Chicago if he wasn't getting rebooked in a sleeper.

As I said above, not all of the folks who were scheduled to be on the CL wound up on the Cardinal; a couple whose acquaintance I made on the EB were told they would be put up for the night in Chicago with the promise of a ticket on the next day's CL. I don't know if they got a sleeper as they originally booked or were put in coach on that train. I believe they did not get put on the Cardinal because they were connecting to another train in DC and could not make that connection via the Cardinal.

 

[JayPea]

All of these are for the eastbound, but what about westbound? I am scheduled to be taking the EB from CHI to PDX, connecting to the southbound CS to Bay Area over the July 4th weekend. How are things looking in terms of delays and missed connections? Should I be worried already?

Westbound is still looking pretty good. I just so happened to check 27's OTP into Portland earlier as I am going from Spokane to Portland, then up to Seattle, on the 27th. For the last four weeks, it has been early more often than not. Longest delay in that time has been two hours, both of those within the last week, however. Even two hours late would present no problems for you. Hopefully the westbound trend continues.

 

[Ryan]

All of these are for the eastbound, but what about westbound? I am scheduled to be taking the EB from CHI to PDX, connecting to the southbound CS to Bay Area over the July 4th weekend. How are things looking in terms of delays and missed connections? Should I be worried already?

Ask and ye shall receive!

Over the 988 days that I have data for (most of 2010-2012), 27 arrived into PDX more than 455 minutes (and thus after the currently scheduled departure time of 11) late 57 times (5.76%). That does not take into account any connections made because 11 was held for 27, or 27 was late but 11 was later, or folks were bussed.

Overall, I'd say that it looks pretty good.

Edit: The chances of making the connection look pretty good. The summer of 2011 meltdown just looks terribad any way you slice it.

 

[NW cannonball]

Last few runs of #8 looks like losing 1.5 hours Minot - Grand Forks and lose an other hour or so GFK - Fargo.

Expect this 2.5 hours loss from now until the ground freezes?

 

[anir dendroica]

It's not a soft track issue but a construction one. BNSF is bringing the Devils Lake and Hillsboro subdivisions up to modern mainline standards to handle oil traffic. New track after tie replacement is restricted to 20-25 mph for a few days until things get settled and maintains a lesser speed restriction for some time after that. Easy to lose a couple of hours plugging along at 25 mph, especially when you have to wait for freights going the same speed.

Overall the Fargo-Minot improvements should be good for the EB in the longer term. In the very near term that means long construction delays this summer. In the 1-10 year term it means that any gains due to higher track speed could well be offset by delays meeting crude oil trains. In the very long term it means excess capacity once Bakken oil output begins to decline.

 

[Rail Freak]

I have a roomette reservation from West Glacier to St Petersburg this summer. If we miss the EB - CL connection, would Amtrak offer me a hotel & airfare to Tampa the next day?

Thanx

 

[Ryan]

No, they'll offer you a hotel and a seat on the next train.

 

[Rail Freak]

No, they'll offer you a hotel and a seat on the next train.

Yeah, that's what I thought. Doubt seriously if there would be a roomette available! Chi - Fla, in coach would make me a very unhappy camper!!!! :angry2: Gotta think on this again!

 

[crescent2]

Thanks, everyone for your very helpful posts.

Rail Freak, I know what you mean. I'm chewing on doing a loooong AGR trip in sleepers next year, and winding up in coach would be a horrible turn of events. I can't sleep in coach at all, and a week+ with no showers? It is more than a bit scary!

 

[montana mike]

It's not a soft track issue but a construction one. BNSF is bringing the Devils Lake and Hillsboro subdivisions up to modern mainline standards to handle oil traffic. New track after tie replacement is restricted to 20-25 mph for a few days until things get settled and maintains a lesser speed restriction for some time after that. Easy to lose a couple of hours plugging along at 25 mph, especially when you have to wait for freights going the same speed.
Overall the Fargo-Minot improvements should be good for the EB in the longer term. In the very near term that means long construction delays this summer. In the 1-10 year term it means that any gains due to higher track speed could well be offset by delays meeting crude oil trains. In the very long term it means excess capacity once Bakken oil output begins to decline.

Looks like it is going to be a long and slow summer for the Hi-Line!

Since Bakken is supposed to last for 100-150 years I doubt this will help any of us!! :mellow: I spoke with a friend who works for BNSF and the railroad is anticipating greatly increased tanker train traffic for way more than 5 years-even if the EPA ever approves the pipeline. He says there is so much oil and natural gas being produced or planned for production that both will be needed for decades.

Note on today's Eastbound EB plugging along in Wisconsin--now running about 5 hours late--I think we may have jinxed the train.

 

[gn2276]

Last week I was back home in Malta MT and saw that it looks like BNSF will be replacing ties both to the east and west of Malta.

 

[amamba]

Lol that Amtrak would provide a flight.

 

[Bus Nut]

Crescent, I was on a very late EB last year. They brought on a customer service rep at some point prior to MKE. They called people down to the SSL by their train connection number to get vouchers for hotels, etc. We arrived in time for the next day's LSL and some folks were put on the LSL in coach and some in sleeper - but I think there were sleepers open because the train behind us was also too late to make the connection to the LSL. The CONO was held for my train and they added an extra coach onto the LSL for the extra pax.

Wow. Considering what's been said on other threads about Amtrak systemwide and LD in particular losses (and EB actually is a fairly well performing train for a Western LD), it seems like enhancing access, speed, and reliability from Minnesota through to Chicago on the one hand (speed upgrades, passing sides, etc), and having EB LD's from Chicago leave later which could be accomplished with speed, access, and reliability upgrades through the Midwest and mountain states, would save a lot of operating expense for Amtrak as well as improving customer goodwill.