Empire Builder Summer Blues Started Early this year

[Bus Nut]

Many, but not all, of us DC-bound passengers were ushered to a conference room to wait to board buses for a three-hour ride to Indianapolis where the Cardinal would be waiting for us -- although the Cardinal left Chicago about a half-hour before the CL it is so slow a bus that could not catch the CL could catch it.

A ha ha, the Card. The route through Indiana is absolutely awful. I blame Indianans. They are spending all da moneys on highways right now. Some friends of mine live there and think the "enhancements" are totally unneccessary and will make driving worse. I've never actually seen a congested road in downstate Indiana. The airport in Indy is very pretty. Amtrak and bus service is depressingly awful. It looks like the best outcome will be some time in the future a daily Cardinal that uses the IC line and then crosses east to Indy. Indiana needs to seriously get a grip.

 

[dlagrua]

We were on the CL on June 5th a day after the EB missed its connection. All connecting sleeper passengers were accommodated as they added an additional sleeper car to the consist. The train had three sleepers that day.

I am guessing that the reason that they don't hold the CL at CHI is because of the potential bustitution, that could occur at Pittsburgh due to CSX track work at Cumberland ,MD. . If the train leaves CLE two hours late its bus time for everyone. Probably cheaper for Amtrak to put the few passengers up at the Hyatt, give them cab fare and meal money than to be faced with bussing everyone to all stops after PGH.

 

[PaulM]

We were on the CL on June 5th a day after the EB missed its connection. All connecting sleeper passengers were accommodated as they added an additional sleeper car to the consist. The train had three sleepers that day.I am guessing that the reason that they don't hold the CL at CHI is because of the potential bustitution, that could occur at Pittsburgh due to CSX track work at Cumberland ,MD. . If the train leaves CLE two hours late its bus time for everyone. Probably cheaper for Amtrak to put the few passengers up at the Hyatt, give them cab fare and meal money than to be faced with bussing everyone to all stops after PGH.

Good to see Amtrak has some flexibility.

If it is any consolation, I believe the construction will be over soon. At least on July 15 the schedule reverts to the 1/2 later departure from CHI.

 

[montana mike]

Really bad day for the EB yesterday--First a Bad Ordered diner delayed the CHI departure for 4 hours (one would think they could turn have remedied that situation in less than 4 hours), this train is now around 5 hours late and a good candidate for turnaround in SPK. Then the east bound EB coming into CHI yesterday PM somehow lost almost 90 minutes between MKE and CHI (normally a place where the EB can make up a little time) and ended up being over 2 hours late into CHI town. Bummer.

 

[berkyo]

We took the EB from Minot ND in may last year and were 9 hours late to Chi.. Might be the train you were on Amamba. There was flooding and then our train hit a truck racing the RR crossing in a small town. We saw the rep and heard her calling the dif groups for counseling in the SSL. At Chi - about midnight - we ate at McDonalds as they were the only place open in the station and the Amtrak office was crowded with passengers with no connection and no where to go. We did get a free meal on board the EB with pot luck service as we all missed dinner. Very nice of them.

We took the Metra up to a hotel where we had missed a pre wedding party but did make the ceremony the next day before getting on the LSL to come home. That trip was the one that convinced us that train travel was for retired people with no commitments on either end of the track.

So if we were scheduled to make the LSL limited that night, we would be put up in a hotel at Amtrak's expense?

 

[Ryan]

Yep.

 

[montana mike]

The westbound EB now well over 6 hours behind schedule--looks to be an almost sure bet to turn in SPK now.

:-(((

 

[hankster211]

The westbound EB now well over 6 hours behind schedule--looks to be an almost sure bet to turn in SPK now.:-(((

Riding the EB next week. What exactly does "turn in SPK" involve?

 

[amamba]

We took the EB from Minot ND in may last year and were 9 hours late to Chi.. Might be the train you were on Amamba.

Nope. Mine was 30 hours late due to a freight derailment just East of Glasgow, MT. I posted extensively about it at the time - some folks were kind enough to talk me through my anxiety about making the LSL the next day. I had booked an overnight on CHI - I was on two, two zone AGR awards - but sadly I missed out on my entire CHI day. My husband had never been to Chicago and sadly all he saw of the city was the Metropolitan Lounge.

 

[Ryan]

The westbound EB now well over 6 hours behind schedule--looks to be an almost sure bet to turn in SPK now.

:-(((

Riding the EB next week. What exactly does "turn in SPK" involve?

Pretty much what it says - if the train is late enough that it would delay the next day's trip, they turn the train around in Spokane. Folks headed west of there get bussed. Folks starting their eastward journey get bussed (on time, so that the train can leave Spokane as close to one time as possible).

 

[montana mike]

And 6 hours is usually long enough (since the EB is normally only in SEA around 6 hours and they need all of that time to prepare the train for the return trip) to cause them to stop the train in Spokane

 

[tomfuller]

Train #7 arrived in SEA 25 minutes EARLY yesterday. Today it arrived 44 minutes late.

When in the last week has this train been 6 or more hours late?

 

[Ryan]

The one headed your way will be.

 

[montana mike]

And the last time I took the EB to CHI back in May--It turned in SPK because it was 7+ hours late.

:-((

 

[anir dendroica]

It's not a soft track issue but a construction one. BNSF is bringing the Devils Lake and Hillsboro subdivisions up to modern mainline standards to handle oil traffic. New track after tie replacement is restricted to 20-25 mph for a few days until things get settled and maintains a lesser speed restriction for some time after that. Easy to lose a couple of hours plugging along at 25 mph, especially when you have to wait for freights going the same speed.
Overall the Fargo-Minot improvements should be good for the EB in the longer term. In the very near term that means long construction delays this summer. In the 1-10 year term it means that any gains due to higher track speed could well be offset by delays meeting crude oil trains. In the very long term it means excess capacity once Bakken oil output begins to decline.

Looks like it is going to be a long and slow summer for the Hi-Line!

Since Bakken is supposed to last for 100-150 years I doubt this will help any of us!! :mellow: I spoke with a friend who works for BNSF and the railroad is anticipating greatly increased tanker train traffic for way more than 5 years-even if the EPA ever approves the pipeline. He says there is so much oil and natural gas being produced or planned for production that both will be needed for decades.

Note on today's Eastbound EB plugging along in Wisconsin--now running about 5 hours late--I think we may have jinxed the train.

There's a lot of hyperbole and hoopla surrounding estimates of future oil production in the Bakken right now because, if you haven't noticed yet, shale oil is today's speculative bubble about to pop and there is a need to convince investors that the future is still bright.

The thing to know about shale oil is that well production declines 30-40% per year. Thus at some point (which is soon approaching) we will be drilling more wells but producing less oil. The most realistic forecasts I have seen project a peak in Bakken production in the next few years followed by a few years of steady production and a long, slow decline.

 

[montana mike]

I don't know who gave you that info. A very close friend of ours is a principle in one of the firms in the Bakken play and their estimates are for increasing production in ND and MT for at least 20-30 years, with full production lasting two to three times that long. This is the largest energy field outside of TX in US history. It will be around for generations. This guy has been in the business his entire life and I believe his estimates to be quite accurate. He is not one to speak in hyperboles.

 

[NW cannonball]

Now #8(18) looks to be 3 hours late out of Wenatchee.

 

[montana mike]

It appears 7 was turned in SPK as expected, since it was over 7 hours late. A terrible day for all of the EBs yesterday. Arrival time in Chicago was over 3 hours late as well. This AM every EB is waaay behind schedule. Darn

 

[nybatt]

I happened to be part of the 4hr delay, Monday, on #7 out of CHI. It was extremely frustrating to say the least. My biggest issue was the lack of Amtrak organization during the wait in the coach lounge at the station. The initial PA announcement relayed a "30 minute" delay... followed 35 minutes later with a "60 minute" delay. When we reached an hour the word was "we don't have a time for your departure".

Needless to say, many were frazzled.

I travel cross-country each summer on Amtrak, and honestly understand these issues occur. As I stated before my issue was that no Amtrak 'official' came out to address the mob scene with updates/instructions. While we waited multiple Hiawatha and Milwaukee trains boarded at our gate; as you can imagine it was pretty crowded.

Fortunately my trip on the EB was a 'short' one, traveling only to Wis. Dells.

We are returning on tomorrow's (6/18 origin) EB to Chicago. The train is already over 2.5 hours late.

As a train lover I am keeping my chin up and smiling, as for the wife..........

Thanks for reading!

 

[montana mike]

I am trying to figure out the common thread(s) why the Empire Builder struggles so much in the summer. So far it just doesn't appear to be one thing. Lots of "one time" events, coupled with the extra number of people (although I don't see more boardings along the way as causing 4-7 hour delays). Perhaps BNSF does indeed kick things up a few notches on the freight numbers in the summer, perhaps the construction (which is necessary of course) just overwhelms a delicately balanced and now increasingly full line?

The bottom line is sadly I don't see things getting any better. Perhaps Amtrak will need to set up the additional consist in SEA if the delays become more than the "infrequent" terminations in SPK? Perhaps they need to tinker with the schedule to reflect reality? Right now it looks like just one or two turnarounds in SPK a month, but at what point do you say, OK, the bustitutions from SEA are becoming more frequent and the delays into CHI are now causing folks to routinely miss connections, we need to address this issue?

 

[yarrow]

The bottom line is sadly I don't see things getting any better. Perhaps Amtrak will need to set up the additional consist in SEA if the delays become more than the "infrequent" terminations in SPK? Perhaps they need to tinker with the schedule to reflect reality? Right now it looks like just one or two turnarounds in SPK a month, but at what point do you say, OK, the bustitutions from SEA are becoming more frequent and the delays into CHI are now causing folks to routinely miss connections, we need to address this issue?

i don't know the solution and neither does amtrak seem to. unfortunately, it's their job to figure it out. last summer they appeared to fiddle while rome burned (they did stick and extra consist in sea/pdx at the tail end of things, iirc).

 

[crescent2]

It appears 7 was turned in SPK as expected, since it was over 7 hours late. A terrible day for all of the EBs yesterday. Arrival time in Chicago was over 3 hours late as well. This AM every EB is waaay behind schedule. Darn

Double darn.

 

[laxster]

How will these delays affect connections to the Wolverine?

I am taking the EB Empire Builder to Chicago in August, and then the Wolverine to Dearborn. There is *supposed* to be a 2 hour layover if the train arrives on time, but I'm concerned that it won't be. Last time I took this trip, a few of us were running at top speed through the station to catch the Wolverine.

I'm not opposed to spending an extra night in Chicago.

Is the freight traffic between MSP and CHI still crazy busy in both directions?

 

[NW cannonball]

I am trying to figure out the common thread(s) why the Empire Builder struggles so much in the summer. So far it just doesn't appear to be one thing. Lots of "one time" events, coupled with the extra number of people (although I don't see more boardings along the way as causing 4-7 hour delays). Perhaps BNSF does indeed kick things up a few notches on the freight numbers in the summer, perhaps the construction (which is necessary of course) just overwhelms a delicately balanced and now increasingly full line? The bottom line is sadly I don't see things getting any better. Perhaps Amtrak will need to set up the additional consist in SEA if the delays become more than the "infrequent" terminations in SPK? Perhaps they need to tinker with the schedule to reflect reality? Right now it looks like just one or two turnarounds in SPK a month, but at what point do you say, OK, the bustitutions from SEA are becoming more frequent and the delays into CHI are now causing folks to routinely miss connections, we need to address this issue?

Like you say - the summertime delays on the EB seem to be so many various things - from the bad-ordered diner that snowballed into an early turn at SPK - to expected trackwork - to -- whatever.

Track repair and improvement is expected, just like on highways -- but the EB seems to catch every problem summertimes. No one explanation. Frustrating.

 

[Ryan]

How will these delays affect connections to the Wolverine?
I am taking the EB Empire Builder to Chicago in August, and then the Wolverine to Dearborn. There is *supposed* to be a 2 hour layover if the train arrives on time, but I'm concerned that it won't be. Last time I took this trip, a few of us were running at top speed through the station to catch the Wolverine.

I'm not opposed to spending an extra night in Chicago.

Is the freight traffic between MSP and CHI still crazy busy in both directions?

Here's how the arrival times have fared over the last 3 summers:

August looks pretty rough. If you're OK with it, you may be spending the night in CHI on Amtrak's dime.