Equipment Order in the works this year (2018)?

[railiner]

Re: those F125's...

As an old fan of the former General Motors, Electro-Motive Division, I have a very hard time accepting a locomotive powered by a Caterpillar prime mover, and a body designed in Spain, as a genuine "EMD"

 

[Green Maned Lion]

The concept of risk is an interesting thing, because it depends on what you consider a risk. Obviously theres a certain risk with an aircraft that if it mechanically fails you can drop out of the sky. However when you were talking about and under budgeted and already somewhat unreliable transportation service, there are other risks.

If you have a proven well-built and bug free or almost bug free design, you have a lot of confidence that the design will run reliably. Not in the context of falling out of the sky, but in the context of guaranteeing reliable running on time service. Not to mention the financial implications of repairs and refunds due to non-running trains.

I have not been impressed with what Anderson is doing on the long distance network. However what we need, an I have not been impressed with what Anderson is doing on the long distance network. However what we need, NEED, Is a reliable Northeast Corredor and every other Corredor for that matter such that people trust their train will run and run with in a reasonable accuracy of the printed schedule. Hell we need it for the long distance trains to.

Is a reliable Northeast Corredor and every other Corredor for that matter such that people trust their train will run and run with in a reasonable accuracy of the printed schedule. Hill we need it for the long distance trains to.

However the majority of the demographic of the long-distance train ride or, combined with the nature that Amtrak has been running for years means that long distance train riders have come to expect an unreliable product, and still use it for s however the majority of the demographic of a long-distance train writer, combined with the nature that Amtrak has been running for years means that long-distance train riders have come to expect an unreliable product, and still use it despite that.

Despite it being unreliable for about 40 years now. The Northeast Corredor on the other hand is an actual transportation service used by people who arent necessarily have a lien client to train riding. They fly take the bus or ride the train, whichever is cheapest more convenient or more effective for their purpose. So in that nature it needs to be competitive in away the long distance trains do not. Switching the system to newer and more reliable equipment that we know is going to be reliable from day one of service is imperative.

Please do not assume that I am for Andersons intentions on the long distance network. But the Northeast Corredor and other Corredors have different operating imperativesthan the long-distance network

 

[Seaboard92]

Re: those F125's...

As an old fan of the former General Motors, Electro-Motive Division, I have a very hard time accepting a locomotive powered by a Caterpillar prime mover, and a body designed in Spain, as a genuine "EMD"

I understand what you mean. I've ran both modern GEs and classic EMD E8s in my engineer training at a museum that uses both. There is nothing quite like those old EMDs. They load well, I like the control stand, and and they respond well. However the C40-8s I've also learned on do have the better visibility and nicer cab (hvac). But nothing compares to the vintage EMDs.

 

[railiner]

I had my first cab ride in a PC E-8, from Croton-Harmon to Albany-Rensselaer, back in 1969, after getting off one of those 'P' Motor's, from Grand Central Terminal...

What a difference! The engineer smiled, and said to me, "now you're riding in a Cadillac"...

 

[jis]

This is what a modern EMD Passenger Diesel looks like. This is the dual cab version. IR Class WDP-4D, Though currently geared for 80mph, they can be upped to 110mph, but there is no need for such in India, since all trains faster than 80mph are Electric hauled. currently being deployed extensively in India: The article linked to below is from 2014. Since then more than a couple of hundred have been deployed.

Details and Copyright info at:

https://tractionmech8.wordpress.com/2014/07/16/wdp4d/

 

[cpotisch]

This article in Railway Age talks about the RFI and replacement of the Amfleet Is.

 

[railiner]

This is what a modern EMD Passenger Diesel looks like. This is the dual cab version. IR Class WDP-4D, Though currently geared for 80mph, they can be upped to 110mph, but there is no need for such in India, since all trains faster than 80mph are Electric hauled. currently being deployed extensively in India: The article linked to below is from 2014. Since then more than a couple of hundred have been deployed.

Details and Copyright info at:

https://tractionmech8.wordpress.com/2014/07/16/wdp4d/

At least I would recognize the "chant" of the two-stroke prime mover...

Those grills over the windshield recall the 'ghetto-grates' over New Haven RR locomotives...

 

[jrud]

Metro North and Amtrak starting to work together on dual-mode locomotives. http://www.highspeed-rail.org/Documents/305%20activities%20report%20-%20monthly%206-30-18.docx

 

[jrud]

This just provides further verification that Siemens could provide modern single level sleeping cars in addition to “day” cars. http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/traction-rolling-stock/single-view/view/siemens-chosen-to-build-day-and-night-fleets.html

 

[frequentflyer]

This just provides further verification that Siemens could provide modern single level sleeping cars in addition to “day” cars. http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/traction-rolling-stock/single-view/view/siemens-chosen-to-build-day-and-night-fleets.html

One car body, one set of spare parts, would yield significant savings for Amtrak. It would be politically easier for Amtrak to get the California congress coalition behind a huge appropriation for made in California Siemen cars.

But if the rumors are correct that Amtrak is looking at single level cars to replace the east and west LD cars, what happpens to the over 400 Amfleet, over 100 Horizons, over 400 Superliner cars on the secondary market?

 

[Ziv]

I don't think that all the SuperLiners need to be retired immediately and the same goes for retiring all of the Amfleets or Horizons. Retire the worst ones, keep the rest and refurb as needed. Add frequencies to LD lines that are successful and lease the rest to regional rail companies. Anderson may not be the right choice for this but this is a good time to push for more rail, not less.

This just provides further verification that Siemens could provide modern single level sleeping cars in addition to “day” cars. http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/traction-rolling-stock/single-view/view/siemens-chosen-to-build-day-and-night-fleets.html

One car body, one set of spare parts, would yield significant savings for Amtrak. It would be politically easier for Amtrak to get the California congress coalition behind a huge appropriation for made in California Siemen cars.

But if the rumors are correct that Amtrak is looking at single level cars to replace the east and west LD cars, what happpens to the over 400 Amfleet, over 100 Horizons, over 400 Superliner cars on the secondary market?

 

[Alexandria Nick]

On the matter of the "I don't want unproven planes" comment, remember that a pair of 787s cost as much as the entire Viewliner II order. The order was something like a $4 billion dollar deal. Your decision threshold is in a very different place when the numbers are that high.

 

[Trogdor]

On the matter of the "I don't want unproven planes" comment, remember that a pair of 787s cost as much as the entire Viewliner II order. The order was something like a $4 billion dollar deal. Your decision threshold is in a very different place when the numbers are that high.

To bring some perspective: Boeing lists the 787 at $239 million (for the -8) to $325 million (for the -10).

However, "list price" is meaningless in the world of airlines and airplane orders. Rumors are that Boeing has optimized the manufacturing process enough to be able to profitably sell a 787 for under $100 million.

Railcars, on the other hand, are what...$2 - $4 million?

 

[Amtrakfflyer]

I still dont trust this management with any order at all. Look how theyre using the V2 diners, or not using them. A order for the wrong equipment could hamper Amtrak for years to come. Amtrak gets to place a new car order at the most once a decade. Andersons idea of Amtraks future isnt all of what Americans want even though he claims hes going after the young, hip, demanding, crowd. Obviously we need corridors but not at the expense of long distance trains.

 

[bretton88]

I still dont trust this management with any order at all. Look how theyre using the V2 diners, or not using them. A order for the wrong equipment could hamper Amtrak for years to come. Amtrak gets to place a new car order at the most once a decade. Andersons idea of Amtraks future isnt all of what Americans want even though he claims hes going after the young, hip, demanding, crowd. Obviously we need corridors but not at the expense of long distance trains.

Apples to Oranges, the V2s where ordered long before current management and they fit that management group's vision. This management group will purchase equipment that fits with their vision of where they see Amtrak, it might not fit the vision of future management. That's the problem with the constant management turnover that Amtrak has.

 

[jrud]

In line with the assertion that a good design never totally dies, there is certainly some common lineage between these and AEM-7s. http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/traction-rolling-stock/single-view/view/locomotives-handed-over-to-green-cargo.html

 

[jis]

I hope they are actually using technology that is more modern by a couple of generations than what was used in AEM-7s. They are ancient. Even Amtrak upgraded a subset of them with AC drive, before they decided to replace them entirely, and NJT replaced them earlier than Amtrak.

 

[jrud]

I hope they are actually using technology that is more modern by a couple of generations than what was used in AEM-7s. They are ancient. Even Amtrak upgraded a subset of them with AC drive, before they decided to replace them entirely, and NJT replaced them earlier than Amtrak.

The article does say asynchronous motors. My best interpretation is they are based on a generation or two newer designs than the AEM-7s, but still in the family. This is doubly interesting as it is Swedish derived designs made in Romania sold to a Swedish railroad.

 

[jis]

I hope they are actually using technology that is more modern by a couple of generations than what was used in AEM-7s. They are ancient. Even Amtrak upgraded a subset of them with AC drive, before they decided to replace them entirely, and NJT replaced them earlier than Amtrak.

The article does say asynchronous motors. My best interpretation is they are based on a generation or two newer designs than the AEM-7s, but still in the family. This is doubly interesting as it is Swedish derived designs made in Romania sold to a Swedish railroad.

Which leaves me wondering what is actually used from the previous design other than the name, car body and perhaps trucks, though those are probably significantly different too. I would be surprised if the engineer's stand has not been modified significantly too.

Though different from this case since the question here is about a specific instance of a design rather than the class, still it reminds me of an eternal discussion point. If you start with a Ford Mustang (say) with a specific VIN and then replace everything in it, except its ash tray, is it still the same Ford Mustang that you started with?

 

[jrud]

I hope they are actually using technology that is more modern by a couple of generations than what was used in AEM-7s. They are ancient. Even Amtrak upgraded a subset of them with AC drive, before they decided to replace them entirely, and NJT replaced them earlier than Amtrak.

The article does say asynchronous motors. My best interpretation is they are based on a generation or two newer designs than the AEM-7s, but still in the family. This is doubly interesting as it is Swedish derived designs made in Romania sold to a Swedish railroad.

Which leaves me wondering what is actually used from the previous design other than the name, car body and perhaps trucks, though those are probably significantly different too. I would be surprised if the engineer's stand has not been modified significantly too.
Though different from this case since the question here is about a specific instance of a design rather than the class, still it reminds me of an eternal discussion point. If you start with a Ford Mustang (say) with a specific VIN and then replace everything in it, except its ash tray, is it still the same Ford Mustang that you started with?

As an old car pool mate used to say: “it’s my grandpa’s axe. It’s had three new handles and two new heads. But it’s my grandpa’s axe.”

And it is not me but the article that says it is derived from the EA locomotive family built in Romania decades ago under license from ASEA. Looking up the EA family gets you close to the AEM-7.

 

[cirdan]

I hope they are actually using technology that is more modern by a couple of generations than what was used in AEM-7s. They are ancient. Even Amtrak upgraded a subset of them with AC drive, before they decided to replace them entirely, and NJT replaced them earlier than Amtrak.

equipment development is both about revolutions and evolutions.

The principle of the asynchronous motor in trains goes back to the late 19th Century. Think Italian three-phase electrification for example. The principle is very simple, very robust and if you keep some basic principles in mind, very forgiving control-wise.

Unfortunately, that simplicity on the motor side is offset by carzy complexity upstream because you need to eb able to vary the frequency. It was doable back then but very complicated. That's why the asynchronous motor didn't really start gaining ground until power electronics hit the market, and even then it took a while. Most of the early power electronic systems on trains used DC motors. At present, one of the main limitations on asynchronous motor is voltage ripple and harmonics. Progress here is one of evolution, not revolution. And I don't think that will change in the forseeable future.

On the converter sise, there have been some significant revolutions. Notably the transition from bipolar to IGBT in silicon. But within that there has also been an evolution as every generation of components was minimally superior to its predecessor. Trenches, bandgap and things have happened, meaning today we can do things that are actually better than as little as 10 years ago pundits were predicting would ever be possible using silicon. The next big thing will be silicon carbide. That won't remove complexity but it will mean lower losses, meaning you can probably reduce some of the cooling foorprint. And this can offset the higher costs of the converter. But that too is more evolution than revolution, seeing old fashioned silicon has been optimized to such an extent that the first generation of siliucon carbide will probably be only marginally better at first, but of course have much more potential for optimization.

 

[jis]

And it is not me but the article that says it is derived from the EA locomotive family built in Romania decades ago under license from ASEA. Looking up the EA family gets you close to the AEM-7.

Yeah it certainly claims lineage to the RC family and boasts of Romanian innovation in doubling the power or some such too..

License manufacturers have done some really remarkable and almost bizarre things, allowed by the terms of the license.

For example, Indian Railways proceeded to use the Alco trucks manufactured under license not only under Alco derived locomotives (WDM-2, WDM-3 etc.), but also under home grown electric locomotives (WAM-4).

They took a Bombardier high power 60mph freight locomotive (WAG-9) and fiddled around with its trucks and gearing and electronics to increase its speed to 90mph, and managed to up the power some and made a very credible passenger locomotive (WAP-7) out of it with tremendous tractive effort capable of starting a 26 car train as if it was nothing.

And their latest exploit is to take a pair of Alco derived WDM-2s, remove the diesel prime mover an ancillaries in its entirety and paste on a WAG-5 electric superstructure and controls and create a married pair dual cab 9000HP Co-Co-Co-Co electric freight engine. And all this while they are busily importing for inhouse license manufacture of 12000 HP Bo-Bo-Bo-Bo Alstom freight electric.

But as their appetite for equipment is enormous as they sit at the cusp of completely re-equipping the railways with new generation equipment and rolling stock, almost anything that works to reduce cost of evolution is fair game.

Now one could sit and have a lively discussion about which a derivative of what.

 

[Ryan]

As an old car pool mate used to say: “it’s my grandpa’s axe. It’s had three new handles and two new heads. But it’s my grandpa’s axe.”

And it is not me but the article that says it is derived from the EA locomotive family built in Romania decades ago under license from ASEA. Looking up the EA family gets you close to the AEM-7.

Sounds like a modern day Ship of Theseus.

 

[DSS&A]

New Bi-modal DMU-electric high speed trains have started non-revenue testing in England. The new Hitachi built British Class 802 trainsets can operate at 125mph using a Rolls-Royce engine and quickly change to electric power to operate at 140mph. These trainsets could offer single-seat service connecting the NEC to other places such as Richmonds, VA; Newport, VA; Springfield,MA; replace the Empire Service trainsets and other trains.

Here are some links to these brand new trainsets.

https://www.railmagazine.com/news/fleet/transpennine-express-class-802-starts-main-line-testing?image=27037

http://press.hitachirail-eu.com/pressreleases/first-of-nova-1-bullet-train-inspired-fleet-leaves-japan-on-its-way-to-transform-journeys-in-the-north-and-scotland-2483541

 

[frequentflyer]

New Bi-modal DMU-electric high speed trains have started non-revenue testing in England. The new Hitachi built British Class 802 trainsets can operate at 125mph using a Rolls-Royce engine and quickly change to electric power to operate at 140mph. These trainsets could offer single-seat service connecting the NEC to other places such as Richmonds, VA; Newport, VA; Springfield,MA; replace the Empire Service trainsets and other trains.

Here are some links to these brand new trainsets.

https://www.railmagazine.com/news/fleet/transpennine-express-class-802-starts-main-line-testing?image=27037

http://press.hitachirail-eu.com/pressreleases/first-of-nova-1-bullet-train-inspired-fleet-leaves-japan-on-its-way-to-transform-journeys-in-the-north-and-scotland-2483541

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_800

The 801 bi mode similar to the 802 has been in service. It had some teething problems though. I agree with your premise of how Amtrak would use DMU/EMUs.