Fare Buckets - and when do they increase/decrease?

[Railspike]

So if in fact it is true that "SOLD OUT" rooms are not actually sold out, what is the benefit for Amtrak to do this?
Is it to con the prospective traveler into thinking they need to grab a room at a High Bucket price if they want to have a chance at getting a room at all? Is it their screwed-up reservation system? Other opinions...................

 

[zephyr17]

So if in fact it is true that "SOLD OUT" rooms are not actually sold out, what is the benefit for Amtrak to do this?
Is it to con the prospective traveler into thinking they need to grab a room at a High Bucket price if they want to have a chance at getting a room at all? Is it their screwed-up reservation system? Other opinions...................

I'd want quite a bit more evidence that Amtrak is listing a given accommodation as Sold Out when it isn't before I took that as actual fact.

As to rooms going out empty and/or dropping in price at the very last minute, I'll accept that. If it is common it indicates their aggressive yield management practices are overly aggressive and backfiring on them. They need to improve their practice in that case.

 

[trimetbusfan]

Here is another example of Amtrak dropping prices down at the last minute. (Btw, price listed is for two travelers).

Looks like roomettes are still in a high bucket, but bedrooms dropped to low bucket just a few days before departure. I helped my friend (who will be on this train) snag a very reasonable $30 upgrade to a bedroom.

 

[amtrakp42]

Yes, the Lakeshore Ltd uses the Boston South station and Downeaster is Boston North station. We are actually staying in Boston for a couple of days of sightseeing before heading up to Portland Maine, staying a couple days there and then renting a car to drive to Bar Harbor for a couple of days. On the return, we stay overnight in Boston and then catch the Lakeshore Ltd back to Chicago for two days of sightseeing there. So it's a very long trip overall with six total days on the train. I booked the Harborside Inn for our nights of sightseeing in Boston and the Intercontinental for the one overnight on our way back. Both stations are fairly close to the train stations. I try to always choose hotels that are within walking distance of the train station.

I have seen several times the Portland to Chicago #28 has dropped lowest bucket of $580 on day of departure and 2 or 3 days. But also have seen it rise to over 1500 a few days out. But this will probably end when Glacier Park gets going. But so far the California Zephyr has not had any low buckets all summer thru Sept. I go every year with last year at lowest bucket But I checked it every day for 3 months. For some reason there were only 2 days in August that I ever saw. So booked it right away and called my nephew and he got it too so we rode together on the beautiful ride. For those who remember the Amsnag I sure miss it.

 

[amtrakp42]

I have seen several times the Portland to Chicago #28 has dropped lowest bucket of $580 on day of departure and 2 or 3 days. But also have seen it rise to over 1500 a few days out. But this will probably end when Glacier Park gets going. But so far the California Zephyr has not had any low buckets all summer thru Sept. I go every year with last year at lowest bucket But I checked it every day for 3 months. For some reason there were only 2 days in August that I ever saw. So booked it right away and called my nephew and he got it too so we rode together on the beautiful ride. For those who remember the Amsnag I sure miss it.

Not sure how this is possibile. Just ran Portland to Chicago leaving June 18th says one bedroom at $3377. Would anyone pay that for 2 nights? I've seen that price before but thought it was a computer blunder.

 

[niemi24s]

Not sure how this is possibile. Just ran Portland to Chicago leaving June 18th says one bedroom at $3377. Would anyone pay that for 2 nights? I've seen that price before but thought it was a computer blunder.

It's entirely possible, as it's the new improved high bucket Bedroom fare for PDX - CHI. Low bucket is $990.

 

[Maglev]

Not sure how this is possibile. Just ran Portland to Chicago leaving June 18th says one bedroom at $3377. Would anyone pay that for 2 nights? I've seen that price before but thought it was a computer blunder.

It is over $3,200 for a Bedroom from PDX to MSP in October when I priced a trip; Roomettes are over a thousand dollars.

 

[Sidney]

Insane prices. New and improved? How about new ways to price gouge?

 

[zephyr17]

Insane prices. New and improved? How about new ways to price gouge?

I think you might have needed @niemi24s to have included
[sarcasm][/sarcasm] tags.

 

[Sidney]

It is over $3,200 for a Bedroom from PDX to MSP in October when I priced a trip; Roomettes are over a thousand dollars.

Ideally, if nobody would pay that price it would come down(to earth) and that goes for all the high buckets. Sadly people will pay…and you know the rest. At $3200 I would expect unlimited alchohol, and the finest food prepared by world famous chefs.

 

[zephyr17]

Ideally, if nobody would pay that price it would come down(to earth) and that goes for all the high buckets. Sadly people will pay…and you know the rest. At $3200 I would expect unlimited alchohol, and the finest food prepared by world famous chefs.

Nah, that pretty much describes VIA's Prestige class which is north of $6,000 per person, double occupancy or 100% single supplement required.

 

[Sidney]

It is over $3,200 for a Bedroom from PDX to MSP in October when I priced a trip; Roomettes are over a thousand dollars.

Amtrak insane pricing continues. This Wednesday a roomette from Sea to Chi is $558 one person senior fare. Maybe the new order to save money on the EB is to book the week you want to leave

 

[niemi24s]

Amtrak insane pricing continues. This Wednesday a roomette from Sea to Chi is $558 one person senior fare. Maybe the new order to save money on the EB is to book the week you want to leave

That might work provided the lower buckets are offered and the accommodation and date you want aren't sold out.

IMHO it's pure folly to think you can outwit the fare setters at Amtrak.

 

[zephyr17]

Patience, monitoring, knowing what the buckets are (thanks @niemi24s!), and doing inventory checks up to 8 rooms when things are at high(er) buckets to gauge how they're selling and the likelihood (or not) of an inventory reallocation, has worked consistently for me to get low(er) buckets that work for my travel plans. I don't see it as outwitting, but having something of an understanding of the objectives of yield management and playing the odds using whatever information I can glean. I treat it as a game. I also don't hold out for absolute lowest bucket, but will happily grab a lower one. It also means I cannot book just whenever I feel like it but often have to wait and watch.

With that said, I think that if there are a lot of last minute drops and/or rooms going out empty, it would be an indication that the yield management practice has gotten too aggressive and that should drive a revision of their practice to reallocate inventory into lower and middle buckets somewhat earlier than doing last minute drops to lowest bucket. However, some anecdotal evidence here really isn't enough of an indicator that those occurrences have become statistically significant enough to drive such a re-evaluation.

Ironically, I do find these last minute drops to be somewhat heartening. Not that I think they help people wanting lower prices much, they are far to late to plan around, but it shows Amtrak yield management is paying attention and adjusting even if late in the game. It would be far worst if it looked like they just left them at high bucket and ignored it, letting rooms go out empty with no attempt to adjust. This shows they aware of and are reacting to facts, which makes me think that they eventually will make a course correction if this happens enough. I strongly doubt any course correction would include returning to the old practice of routinely allocating some inventory to low bucket 11 months out, though. That ship has irrevocably sailed.

 

[railiner]

That might work provided the lower buckets are offered and the accommodation and date you want aren't sold out.

IMHO it's pure folly to think you can outwit the fare setters at Amtrak.

If you are retired, and able to travel at last minute, and are not that particular about where you are going…that could work for you.
Especially if you live in a “hub” like Chicago.

I use that strategy to snag last minute cruises from various ports within driving distance of my Florida home.


*

Read earlier that Amtrak increased from 5 “buckets” to 8…I’m wondering why they even have buckets, and not continuously variable rates?

 

[zephyr17]

If you are retired, and able to travel at last minute, and are not that particular about where you are going…that could work for you.
Especially if you live in a “hub” like Chicago.

I use that strategy to snag last minute cruises from various ports within driving distance of my Florida home.


*

Read earlier that Amtrak increased from 5 “buckets” to 8…I’m wondering why they even have buckets, and not continuously variable rates?

The entire inventory at any given time is allocated to various price points. The only one you see is the lowest open one, but the rest are there. That is easier to do with fixed points.

ARROW is also an antique from the 1970s, brittle with limited flexibility.

 

[gregg_vw]

Patience, monitoring, knowing what the buckets are (thanks @niemi24s!), and doing inventory checks up to 8 rooms when things are at high(er) buckets to gauge how they're selling and the likelihood (or not) of an inventory reallocation, has worked consistently for me to get low(er) buckets that work for my travel plans. I don't see it as outwitting, but having something of an understanding of the objectives of yield management and playing the odds using whatever information I can glean. I treat it as a game. I also don't hold out for absolute lowest bucket, but will happily grab a lower one. It also means I cannot book just whenever I feel like it but often have to wait and watch.

With that said, I think that if there are a lot of last minute drops and/or rooms going out empty, it would be an indication that the yield management practice has gotten too aggressive and that should drive a revision of their practice to reallocate inventory into lower and middle buckets somewhat earlier than doing last minute drops to lowest bucket. However, some anecdotal evidence here really isn't enough of an indicator that those occurrences have become statistically significant enough to drive such a re-evaluation.

Ironically, I do find these last minute drops to be somewhat heartening. Not that I think they help people wanting lower prices much, they are far to late to plan around, but it shows Amtrak yield management is paying attention and adjusting even if late in the game. It would be far worst if it looked like they just left them at high bucket and ignored it, letting rooms go out empty with no attempt to adjust. This shows they aware of and are reacting to facts, which makes me think that they eventually will make a course correction if this happens enough. I strongly doubt any course correction would include returning to the old practice of routinely allocating some inventory to low bucket 11 months out, though. That ship has irrevocably sailed.

It's great if you can see finding semi-reasonable fares as a game. I can't. There are many apps and shortcuts to find good airfares. Since Amsnag went away, there's no easy way to find Amtrak inventory that is not in high demand. I miss Amtrak LD trips, but my travel dollars now go elsewhere. I suspect as baby boomers and older pass on, there won't be a as large a pool willing to overpay for a non-luxury experience.

 

[zephyr17]

It's great if you can see finding semi-reasonable fares as a game. I can't.

Well, I accept that yield management is a reality I cannot avoid if I want to continue to ride. I do not take it personally, it is literally the law of supply and demand in action, and I do take pleasure in beating the system. I find regarding it as a game in which the goal to beat my opponent by getting a halfway decent fare helps give me the patience to do the work to find one without becoming frustrated. It helps I have gained confidence in my strategies and I've never failed to eventually get a fare I could live with. It certainly is a more productive approach than just shouting about it here.

I suspect as baby boomers and older pass on, there won't be a as large a pool willing to overpay for a non-luxury experience.

As I have pointed out on other posts, the total inventory of sleeper accommodations is tiny in the larger scheme of things. Like 920 Bedrooms total for the summer months of July, August, and September on the Builder. It doesn't take a large demographic to keep prices up on such a scarce commodity. A few hundred out of 10s or 100s of thousands in a given overall travel market will do it. In short, don't count on it.

I agree that sleepers generally are not a great value proposition given the overall (lack of) quality in both the accommodations themselves and the service. At high bucket, they are a truly terrible value proposition. Which is why I am not willing to pay it. But apparently enough are to keep the prices up. It only takes a few.

 

[John Webb]

I have to agree with you. I don't understand who is paying these prices and I don't how Amtrak can justify it. Chicago to Seattle is a trip I would like to take but like you I will take the cruise instead.

At some point Amtrak, as a partially tax payer funded entity has to take into consideration it's social obligations. Yes, it is important that Amtrak functions as cost effectively as possible, but it also has to consider the needs of it's constituency: the American taxpayer, pretty much 100% of the public.

These are people who already pay, with their taxes to support Amtrak. Amtrak needs to take that fact into consideration. Anything beyond a modest fare is a double whammy to the the traveling US public.

Part of that constituency are those who 1) live in smaller towns unserved by other forms of transportation 2) are unable to drive due to age, income status, medical issues. These folks should not be abandoned by Amtrak.

While coach fares are somewhat reasonable there are many in the above categories who simply cannot tolerate two nights sitting up in a coach seat. The aged, the disabled. These are the people Amtrak is abandoning.

Looks like I may be one of them. I live in a small town. I am 75 years old and I have a physical disability. I used to be able to afford a roomette to get from the west coast to DC but it is becoming increasingly out of reach, even with AGR points.

 

[zephyr17]

At some point Amtrak, as a partially tax payer funded entity has to take into consideration it's social obligations. Yes, it is important that Amtrak functions as cost effectively as possible, but it also has to consider the needs of it's constituency: the American taxpayer, pretty much 100% of the public.

These are people who already pay, with their taxes to support Amtrak. Amtrak needs to take that fact into consideration. Anything beyond a modest fare is a double whammy to the the traveling US public.

Part of that constituency are those who 1) live in smaller towns unserved by other forms of transportation 2) are unable to drive due to age, income status, medical issues. These folks should not be abandoned by Amtrak.

While coach fares are somewhat reasonable there are many in the above categories who simply cannot tolerate two nights sitting up in a coach seat. The aged, the disabled. These are the people Amtrak is abandoning.

Looks like I may be one of them. I live in a small town. I am 75 years old and I have a physical disability. I used to be able to afford a roomette to get from the west coast to DC but it is becoming increasingly out of reach, even with AGR points.

The only way to really get out of the situation is using those taxpayer funds to increase supply. That's a win win, resulting in better fares for passengers and more revenue for Amtrak. Unfortunately, that apparently will not happen until the 2030s, and that is assuming that Amtrak actually orders sufficient sleepers, which is by no means a good assumption.

A scarce commodity for which demand exceeds supply must be rationed by some means, irrespective of whether or not a subsidy is involved. Price is the normal means of rationing in a market system.

I am by no means defending Amtrak management. Their relentless and single minded focus on cost cutting to the exclusion of everything else is the direct cause of the current equipment shortage. That, in turn, has reduced an already thin supply into a downright shortage and leads us into the situation we are now in.

Amtrak management's failure to support its overall constituency, including the aged and disabled, is pretty much due to that relentless focus on short term costs, ignoring its larger mandate in my view.

 

[gregg_vw]

Well, I accept that yield management is a reality I cannot avoid if I want to continue to ride. I do not take it personally, it is literally the law of supply and demand in action, and I do take pleasure in beating the system. I find regarding it as a game in which the goal to beat my opponent by getting a halfway decent fare helps give me the patience to do the work to find one without becoming frustrated. It helps I have gained confidence in my strategies and I've never failed to eventually get a fare I could live with. It certainly is a more productive approach than just shouting about it here.


As I have pointed out on other posts, the total inventory of sleeper accommodations is tiny in the larger scheme of things. Like 920 Bedrooms total for the summer months of July, August, and September on the Builder. It doesn't take a large demographic to keep prices up on such a scarce commodity. A few hundred out of 10s or 100s of thousands in a given overall travel market will do it. In short, don't count on it.

I agree that sleepers generally are not a great value proposition given the overall (lack of) quality in both the accommodations themselves and the service. At high bucket, they are a truly terrible value proposition. Which is why I am not willing to pay it. But apparently enough are to keep the prices up. It only takes a few.

Your points are all well taken. Some people like chess. Others don't. We all are living on borrowed time. That you find seeking lower buckets an interesting and rewarding past time is wonderful. Whether you are an outlier or a enthusiastic gamer doesn't matter.

 

[Bostontoallpoints]

At some point Amtrak, as a partially tax payer funded entity has to take into consideration it's social obligations. Yes, it is important that Amtrak functions as cost effectively as possible, but it also has to consider the needs of it's constituency: the American taxpayer, pretty much 100% of the public.

These are people who already pay, with their taxes to support Amtrak. Amtrak needs to take that fact into consideration. Anything beyond a modest fare is a double whammy to the the traveling US public.

Part of that constituency are those who 1) live in smaller towns unserved by other forms of transportation 2) are unable to drive due to age, income status, medical issues. These folks should not be abandoned by Amtrak.

While coach fares are somewhat reasonable there are many in the above categories who simply cannot tolerate two nights sitting up in a coach seat. The aged, the disabled. These are the people Amtrak is abandoning.

Looks like I may be one of them. I live in a small town. I am 75 years old and I have a physical disability. I used to be able to afford a roomette to get from the west coast to DC but it is becoming increasingly out of reach, even with AGR points.

I am starting think that Amtrak's goal is to make sleeper service non-taxpayer funded. Charge crazy high fares and provide mediocre food and service. If people continue to pay for it they will keep the sleeper service at premium prices and show profitability. If not they will end it and blame lack of customers. It's a win-win for Amtrak.

 

[niemi24s]

The transition of the CZ to a total of (an assumed) eight buckets has just been noticed with the detection of two additional Bedroom buckets. So far, fares of $3196, 2705, 2297, 1957 and 1786 have been seen. Their ratios indicate they're in sequence and assuming $3196 to be the high bucket, there should be three lower buckets below $1786.

The bucket chart won't be updated until additional fares are found, so if anyone spots fares for C, R, FB or B that are not above or on the current bucket chart, please let me know. Kiitos!

 

[trimetbusfan]

The transition of the CZ to a total of (an assumed) eight buckets has just been noticed with the detection of two additional Bedroom buckets. So far, fares of $3196, 2705, 2297, 1957 and 1786 have been seen. Their ratios indicate they're in sequence and assuming $3196 to be the high bucket, there should be three lower buckets below $1786.

The bucket chart won't be updated until additional fares are found, so if anyone spots fares for C, R, FB or B that are not above or on the current bucket chart, please let me know. Kiitos!

Checked a few dates out of curiosity.

There is a higher roomette fare (not on your chart) of $1455

 

[niemi24s]

<gulp!> Thanks for the new high bucket CZ Roomette. With their fairly equal ratios, these seem to be the top four CZ Roomette buckets and mathematically lead to the bottom four buckets (assuming their are a total of eight like several other trains) and all together they're $1455, 1259, 1095, 959, [ 840, 736, 644 and 569]

This estimated low bucket CZ Roomette of $569 is a mere $6 more than the previous low bucket when there were only five buckets. This new high bucket is $403 (38%) greater than the previous high bucket. Put that in your pipe and smoke it!