Fare Buckets discussion 2023 Q4 - 2024

[Keith1951]

The biggest sleeper consists on Superliner trains these days are 2 standard sleepers and transdorm. That means a capacity of about 30-34 roomettes, depending how many are released for sale in the transdorm, 10 bedrooms, 2 family rooms and 2 accessible rooms on each departure at most. Not all trains have that many. The biggest Viewliner consists are 3 sleepers. They apparently only sell 10 of the 12 roomettes in each car, so that means 30 roomettes, 6 bedrooms and 3 accessible rooms. Again, not all trains have that many sleepers.

The supply, as you can see, is highly constrained. It really does not take all that much demand to fill it. Rationing a scarce luxury commodity, which a sleeper room is, despite maintenence and service issues we all know about, is done by price in market economies. Amtrak is merely leveraging the advantage control of a scarce supply gives it, as any rationally run organization would do. The intelligence and rationality of Amtrak executive management is often questionable, but here they are making perfectly rational pricing decisions.

Many here argue sleepers are a poor value proposition, that First Class airfares and cruise cabins are often cheaper. I agree that sleepers at best are a poor value proposition, even at lower buckets. At high buckets they are a downright terrible value proposition. However, value proposition is not what determines pricing decisions, supply and demand does and at that point it is pretty much math. As long as there are enough new riders who want to try out train travel but do not understand what they may be getting themselves into, and enough veteran riders who do but go anyway, to fill that highly limited inventory, pricing will remain high. That will hold until either Amtrak degrades so much it manages to drive off its limited sleeper clientele or increases capacity.

We all can and do make our own purchasing decisions just as Amtrak makes its own pricing decisions. A sleeper room is very much a discretionary "luxury" purchase. No one is entitled to one any more than one is entitled to a lie-flat First Class airline seat. For myself, I won't purchase in higher buckets (or get bedrooms). That is where tools such as railsforless.us and @niemi24s' invaluable bucket charts come in, as well as observing yield management pricing patterns for trains I ride most frequently. Those tools help enable me to ride at a price I am willing to tolerate, which in no way should be conflated with "cheap".

Bottom line, we are observing an iron law of economics in action. You can mourn it all you like, but you cannot change it any more than King Canute could hold back the tide.

A great Viking. And one of the places he tried was Bosham. But he soon learned it was futile. lol.

 

[amtrakp42]

You should be good in the 532, it’s the 540 car that’s been dropped for the off season this time around

But remember if 40 car is dropped, the. Some rooms are needed for on board employees that used the dorm car.

 

[zephyr17]

But remember if 40 car is dropped, the. Some rooms are needed for on board employees that used the dorm car.

That should not impact passengers already booked into the 32 car, assuming that car itself is not dropped.

 

[SKS1944]

The biggest sleeper consists on Superliner trains these days are 2 standard sleepers and transdorm. That means a capacity of about 30-34 roomettes, depending how many are released for sale in the transdorm, 10 bedrooms, 2 family rooms and 2 accessible rooms on each departure at most. Not all trains have that many. The biggest Viewliner consists are 3 sleepers. They apparently only sell 10 of the 12 roomettes in each car, so that means 30 roomettes, 6 bedrooms and 3 accessible rooms. Again, not all trains have that many sleepers.

The supply, as you can see, is highly constrained. It really does not take all that much demand to fill it. Rationing a scarce luxury commodity, which a sleeper room is, despite maintenence and service issues we all know about, is done by price in market economies. Amtrak is merely leveraging the advantage control of a scarce supply gives it, as any rationally run organization would do. The intelligence and rationality of Amtrak executive management is often questionable, but here they are making perfectly rational pricing decisions.

Many here argue sleepers are a poor value proposition, that First Class airfares and cruise cabins are often cheaper. I agree that sleepers at best are a poor value proposition, even at lower buckets. At high buckets they are a downright terrible value proposition. However, value proposition is not what determines pricing decisions, supply and demand does and at that point it is pretty much math. As long as there are enough new riders who want to try out train travel but do not understand what they may be getting themselves into, and enough veteran riders who do but go anyway, to fill that highly limited inventory, pricing will remain high. That will hold until either Amtrak degrades so much it manages to drive off its limited sleeper clientele or increases capacity.

We all can and do make our own purchasing decisions just as Amtrak makes its own pricing decisions. A sleeper room is very much a discretionary "luxury" purchase. No one is entitled to one any more than one is entitled to a lie-flat First Class airline seat. For myself, I won't purchase in higher buckets (or get bedrooms). That is where tools such as railsforless.us and @niemi24s' invaluable bucket charts come in, as well as observing yield management pricing patterns for trains I ride most frequently. Those tools help enable me to ride at a price I am willing to tolerate, which in no way should be conflated with "cheap".

Bottom line, we are observing an iron law of economics in action. You can mourn it all you like, but you cannot change it any more than King Canute could hold back the tide.

Please consider another group of consumers who want to take the train but don't want to pay the exorbitant price for a roomette, etc. As a trial, why not have one car of a train be only for one passenger buying two adjacent coach seats and have that one passenger pay double fare ( still cheaper than a roomette.) This way if the train is an overnight one, that person can at least spread out. Might this be a compromise? Amtrak sells two seats for one person...the person gets less privacy than a roomette but more privacy than the standard one coach seat per person. Hasn't its time come? At least can't Amtrak try this out?

 

[zephyr17]

Please consider another group of consumers who want to take the train but don't want to pay the exorbitant price for a roomette, etc. As a trial, why not have one car of a train be only for one passenger buying two adjacent coach seats and have that one passenger pay double fare ( still cheaper than a roomette.) This way if the train is an overnight one, that person can at least spread out. Might this be a compromise? Amtrak sells two seats for one person...the person gets less privacy than a roomette but more privacy than the standard one coach seat per person. Hasn't its time come? At least can't Amtrak try this out?

They could do that if only they'd start assigning seats when reservations were made (which they ought to do anyway. Their railroad predecessors managed it). Otherwise conductors would not enforce it and allow someone to take "your" other seat. Another restraint is they do not have enough coaches, either. The Seattle section of the Builder lost its badly needed second coach again in the middle of the summer, for example.

But yes, selling double coach seats would be cheaper, though coach seats are yield managed, too, and subject to the same economic laws. Allowing purchase of two coach seats per person would tend to raise average coach fares as it increases demand on the same supply. Note that high bucket coach fares are not particularly cheap, either. With the current equipment shortages that approach might backfire badly, drastically increasing coach fares for those lacking means and still needing to travel.

 

[Amtrakfflyer]

Please consider another group of consumers who want to take the train but don't want to pay the exorbitant price for a roomette, etc. As a trial, why not have one car of a train be only for one passenger buying two adjacent coach seats and have that one passenger pay double fare ( still cheaper than a roomette.) This way if the train is an overnight one, that person can at least spread out. Might this be a compromise? Amtrak sells two seats for one person...the person gets less privacy than a roomette but more privacy than the standard one coach seat per person. Hasn't its time come? At least can't Amtrak try this out?

The real solution on prices/capacity restrictions is only going to come when current management is removed. The way things are now, even a new car order won’t change management philosophy. With potential board nominee Ron Battory last week saying in front of Congress that Anderson, Coscia and by default Gardner were being deceitful in the SWC trainoff saga of 2018 there might be light at the end of the tunnel. Until then expect fares to keep climbing and LD consists reduced.

 

[Septa9739]

I was looking to book a trip to the Midwest late in February this year (not President’s day weekend) and the fares from the East to Chicago are astronomical. A round trip on the LSL from NYP to CHI is over $400 for COACH. The Floridian is about $300. The Cardinal is the typical $180. The Cardinal is about where I remember it plus a hike or two, but the other two are more expensive than flying, which was never the case. Does someone maybe @niemi24s have some knowledge of what “good” East to CHI fares are these days? More seats should have caused lower fares, not higher.

 

[west point]

Yet Floridian coach fares from Midwest to Florida fares for many days are in low $100s. Sleepers very high!

 

[caravanman]

During January 2015, most LSL coach fares from NYP to Chicago, or reverse, are $93 single. Suddenly they shoot up to $216 single after the first week in February. Seems a bit odd? Maybe a glitch? That seems to be the price for all dates then going forward...

 

[niemi24s]

Does someone maybe @niemi24s have some knowledge of what “good” East to CHI fares are these days?

For travel between NYP and CHI all I can tell you is the fares I have found for the LSL and Cardinal which can be seen here: https://www.amtraktrains.com/threads/long-distance-train-coach-sleeper-fares-buckets.77062/page-7

Unfortunately for you, the only Coach fare posted is the "accommodation" fare for an additional adult in a sleeper. But the easiest way to search for the lowest Coach fare is to use this wonderful search tool: https://railforless.us/ Using it showed lowest fares of $93 for NYP to CHI in Coach on six days in the later half of February as shown below:



the higher fare is $219

 

[zephyr17]

I just ran February and March 2025 CHI-NYP on railsforless.us and got a consistent $93 on the LSL and Card and $162 for Floridian/NER in coach on all dates.

 

[zephyr17]

I ran NYP-CHI and got the same fare jump to $219 on February 3rd, but it stayed at $219 for the entire remainder of February and all of March for me. I didn't get the dips back to $93 in late February.

I find the direction based fare difference striking. I can come up only two possible explanations. One is that there is a significant difference in demand between westbound and eastbound. The other is that Amtrak yield managers have adjusted inventory allocation for 48, but not yet for 49. We are about five months out, smack in the middle of the 4-6 month out sweet spot that my empirical experience is they often reallocate inventory, at least for sleepers. We very well may see those fares drop in the near future if that is the case.