Fares that don't make sense

[Qapla]

I was reading the thread about having twice a day service for Amtrak routes. It was mentioned that, having trains leave on a 12 hour offset would be a good idea. With that in mind I checked to see just when the Silvers left Miami and NYP to see if there was a "bad" time a train would have to depart. The only one I saw was the Meteor would have to leave NYP at 3 AM if it were offset by 12 hours.

That said, to determine the times, I checked on a trip from the origin to Jacksonville. That is when I came across this:


What doesn't make sense is that, going north, the Star takes 11:04 and has to go through Tampa while the Meteor only takes 8:41 minutes and is direct ... yet, the Meteor costs $22 more. To compound this, going south, both Silvers have the same price even though the Star takes 2 more hours than the Meteor. You would think the one that takes longer would cost more.

What gives!

Have you seen other fares like this where they don't make sense?

 

[AmtrakBlue]

Supply & Demand.

 

[ascii42]

The prices are demand based, so that's indicative of higher demand for the train that takes less time. Makes sense to me.

 

[Qapla]

Demand or not, I would not pay a higher price for gas to use a road was more popular if I were driving my car - even if that road was slightly more direct unless there were actually a financial savings ... I still think the shorter train should not cost more

 

[Stremba]

Again, supply and demand. The fare that Amtrak can get for a trip depends on how much demand there is, not on how expensive it s for them to run the train. I suspect that the low bucket fare on both trains is the same. There have just been more seats sold on one, so it has gone into a higher bucket.

This isn’t limited to rail travel, BTW. It’s not common, but sometimes it happens that a flight from city A to city C with a connection in city B is priced at a lower fare than the flight directly from city A to city B. It doesn’t make sense that a trip with one flight costs more than a trip with that same flight plus a second flight, but it does happen.

 

[jis]

Demand or not, I would not pay a higher price for gas to use a road was more popular if I were driving my car - even if that road was slightly more direct unless there were actually a financial savings ... I still think the shorter train should not cost more

Dunno, I pay toll on a faster more popular route if available and if I am in a hurry. But I guess everyone to their own ways

 

[Ryan]

Demand or not, I would not pay a higher price for gas to use a road was more popular if I were driving my car - even if that road was slightly more direct unless there were actually a financial savings ... I still think the shorter train should not cost more

Tell me you don't understand how Amtrak pricing works without telling me you don't understand how Amtrak pricing works.

Fares charged are based on what people are willing to pay and how many people have paid, and aren't tied directly to what it costs to provide that service.

 

[joelkfla]

This how they look in June, 0-10% full -- all even-steven.

 

[user 14106]

Both trains are operating with the same coach capacity. One train (the one you mentioned that’s higher) is more popular with people traveling longer distances between the stations they both serve while the other is more popular with shorter distance travel. The average trip length on the two trains is actually quite different between the two. So not surprising to see differences.

 

[icemaniam2002]

Again, supply and demand. The fare that Amtrak can get for a trip depends on how much demand there is, not on how expensive it s for them to run the train. I suspect that the low bucket fare on both trains is the same. There have just been more seats sold on one, so it has gone into a higher bucket.

This isn’t limited to rail travel, BTW. It’s not common, but sometimes it happens that a flight from city A to city C with a connection in city B is priced at a lower fare than the flight directly from city A to city B. It doesn’t make sense that a trip with one flight costs more than a trip with that same flight plus a second flight, but it does happen.

I've seen that many times with airfare; shorter routes cost more than long ones.

 

[Septa9739]

Stuff like this happens all the time. Regionals are usually more expensive than Keystones between Philly and New York, even though the Keystones are usually 10 minutes faster. I think that’s to maximize seats available through Philly to or from the south. Pre-COVID it wasn’t totally out of the ordinary for same day fares on a Regional to be more expensive than an Acela. It’s all about trying to maximize revenue and sometimes the algorithms don’t make a ton of sense.
My favorite though is that every now and then you could observe a Bedroom on the Capitol Limited going for less than a Roomette. I doubt that happens anymore with the price hikes lately, but I couldn’t figure that out for the life of me.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Demand or not, I would not pay a higher price for gas to use a road was more popular if I were driving my car - even if that road was slightly more direct unless there were actually a financial savings ... I still think the shorter train should not cost more

But you'd have no choice if you were on a Toll Road right??!!

 

[jis]

Speaking of fares that don't make sense, that complaint goes back to pre-Amtrak times. I came across this gem of anarticle in the New York Times from October 1971.

https://www.nytimes.com/1971/10/24/...n-fare-system-a-leftover-plaguing-amtrak.html

 

[Willbridge]

On my recent unexpected trip DEN<>PDX the bus fare one-way from Denver to Portland was half the fare from Denver to The Dalles. The Dalles, formerly served by the Pioneer, is 84 rail miles closer to Denver than is Portland. The difference is that Portland has economy air line service, as well as indirect Amtrak service. I checked bus fares from Denver for a few other small city destinations on the Pioneer route and they were all higher than the fare to Portland.

The attractive fare to Portland was working; the segment from Pasco to Portland was the only stretch that had a full-seated load. The Greyhound driver refused to honor the seat reservation charge that I had paid and more importantly, had to leave two passengers behind for a 24-hour wait in Pasco.

 

[Anderson]

I mean, you get absurdities like this all the time over in airline-land. Sometimes, ORF-JFK-MCO is cheaper than ORF-ATL-MCO (despite the former getting you a free meal in First). From a sheer miles-traveled perspective, sometimes the nonstop is more expensive than the connection...sometimes it isn't. ORF is usually more expensive than RIC by a few bucks...but sometimes it's only like $9 or $11 (RIC has B6 as a carrier) and other times it's like $50 more. And I swear that there have been times when I've seen goofy differences in one direction vs another (I think I've split at least one round-trip between carriers because of that sort of silliness).

[Let's not get into the fact that the airlines and I tend to have very different ideas of what the "best match" flight looks like...but then again, I'm still used to the "travel is going to kill a day or two, so make sure you can enjoy it" situation that Amtrak introduced me to a long, long time ago.]

Edit: Also, may I note a certain amusement that it is the fan of the Klingons who kicked this off by complaining about...illogical...fares?

 

[caravanman]

Looking to book my Amtrak ride from Chicago to San Diego, in September, the website offers me the Southwest Chief to LAX and the Surfliner to SAN.
The combined fare in "coach" shows as $349. If choosing business class on the Surfliner, this DROPS the total trip cost to $183 !
The correct coach fare for my date, 17 Sept, as separate tickets is Chief to LAX $132, plus $33 coach on the Surfliner, making $165, a good saving over the $349 the Amtrak website asks for!

 

[tgstubbs1]

Looking to book my Amtrak ride from Chicago to San Diego, in September, the website offers me the Southwest Chief to LAX and the Surfliner to SAN.
The combined fare in "coach" shows as $349. If choosing business class on the Surfliner, this DROPS the total trip cost to $183 !
The correct coach fare for my date, 17 Sept, as separate tickets is Chief to LAX $132, plus $33 coach on the Surfliner, making $165, a good saving over the $349 the Amtrak website asks for!

Sounds like a good deal. How did you figure this out? Maybe there is a website that can ferret out these kinds of deals?

 

[caravanman]

Sounds like a good deal. How did you figure this out? Maybe there is a website that can ferret out these kinds of deals?

It's not a "deal", it's some sort of web site glitch. The "through" combined coach ticket transferring at LAX should be $165, not $349...
Buyer beware!

 

[Bob Dylan]

Looking to book my Amtrak ride from Chicago to San Diego, in September, the website offers me the Southwest Chief to LAX and the Surfliner to SAN.
The combined fare in "coach" shows as $349. If choosing business class on the Surfliner, this DROPS the total trip cost to $183 !
The correct coach fare for my date, 17 Sept, as separate tickets is Chief to LAX $132, plus $33 coach on the Surfliner, making $165, a good saving over the $349 the Amtrak website asks for!

Good Karma Eddie! Book it before the Fares go Up!

 

[tgstubbs1]

It's not a "deal", it's some sort of web site glitch. The "through" combined coach ticket transferring at LAX should be $165, not $349...
Buyer beware!

You should try to recall the exact chain of events that got you there.

Then tell the rest of us how you did it!

 

[caravanman]

You should try to recall the exact chain of events that got you there.

Then tell the rest of us how you did it!

I had been browsing coach fares from Chicago westwards, and had seen that the coach fares were around $130-$175 ish to LAX. I knew the fare from LAX to SAN was quite economical, so could see there was a website issue/problem with that route Chicago to San Diego. It is conformed as a fault when the business class fare is over $100 LESS than the coach.
Try it yourself, September, CHI to SAN, it comes up with that bonkers coach fare!

 

[minnrider]

It's not a "deal", it's some sort of web site glitch. The "through" combined coach ticket transferring at LAX should be $165, not $349...
Buyer beware!

I've noticed that same glitch when trying to book a through ticket to San Diego from the westbound Chief with a connection in either Fullerton or LA. The coach fare is significantly higher than the business fare. Another thing is I am unable to book a through ticket from Williams, AZ to San Diego, but can make to a booking from Williams to either Fullerton or LA. That doesn't make sense since there's a guaranteed connecting van from Williams to the Chief in Flagstaff. It shouldn't matter what your final destination is from there. I've noticed both of these glitches for a least the past couple of weeks.

 

[zephyr17]

I am unable to book a through ticket from Williams, AZ to San Diego, but can make to a booking from Williams to either Fullerton or LA. That doesn't make sense since there's a guaranteed connecting van from Williams to the Chief in Flagstaff. It shouldn't matter what your final destination is from there. I've noticed both of these glitches for a least the past couple of weeks.

This is a known and longstanding issue. Connections in ARROW must be entered into the system city pair by city pair, they are not generated algorithmically, nor even entered train to train/bus. This results in some city pairs not having been entered, although there are guaranteed connections for the whole route. The workaround is to check the connections individually using major points when the desired routing does not come up. In this case, probably LAX-WMH to check the bus connection to Williams and, to be absolutely positive, SAN-FLG to check the connection at LAX. If both come up, the connections at LAX and FLG from SAN to WMH are there and guaranteed, despite a SAN-WMH request returning "no service". Having confirmed the connections, you can feel confident booking it using two segments on Multi-City or with an agent, probably SAN-LAX and LAX-WMH. Don't generally use separate reservations as that loses the connection guarantee.

This has been the case for years and years. Lesser city pairs can eventually get added then city pairs break when even minor schedule changes are made and must be re-entered. "Missing" city pairs come and go.

As to the what appears to be a weird overcharge on Surfliner fares when connecting to the SW Chief, I can't speak to that. I'd wonder if it still happens when entered as Multi-City versus the normal One Way option.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Sounds like a good deal.

&

It's not a "deal", it's some sort of web site glitch.

It's neither a deal or glitch because every disparity can be explained with [checks notes] "supply and demand." Amtrak is simply responding to demand that strongly prefers common coach class seats over uncommon business class seats and is happy to pay more for less.

 

[trimetbusfan]

I had been browsing coach fares from Chicago westwards, and had seen that the coach fares were around $130-$175 ish to LAX. I knew the fare from LAX to SAN was quite economical, so could see there was a website issue/problem with that route Chicago to San Diego. It is conformed as a fault when the business class fare is over $100 LESS than the coach.
Try it yourself, September, CHI to SAN, it comes up with that bonkers coach fare!

Looks like selecting coach on both legs forces the more expensive ‘flexible’ fare rate for both, whereas selecting business class on the surfliner allows the much cheaper saver fare for the SWC.