Feasibility of Florida-Chicago Train via Atlanta, Nashville, Louisvill

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Yeah, I don't know how they did it in this case. Their proposed schedule seems to be consistent with the L&N Gulf Wind to some extent. Possibly in the process of carrying out repairs after Katrina, CSX has actually improved the trackage and facilities some. But I don;t know that for sure.
 
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Chicago-Floridia service over the CHI-IND-LVL-NVL-CHT-ATL-MCN-JAX-ORL-TPA or MIA would have a huge ridership base and would serve a market demographic that it would appeal to (Elderly folks who can't drive long distances and/or anyone who isn't willing to deal with the hassles of flying. However, there are many obstacles to this, many of them major ones. First, the L&I tracks (IND-LVL) would need to be upgraded from 30 mph to 79 mph and signalized. Second, south of LVL, CSX owns the tracks and they are some of the most heavily used in their system, especially NVL-CHT-ATL-JAX, so CSX would, without a doubt, ask for $$$$$$$$$ in capacity increases. Third, the Atlanta Brookwood station (on the NS line) is too small and gets crowded even at existing usage levels, and, even worse, is in the wrong place to be used for such a service without a long backup move (NS will not want that). The Atlanta MMPT would have to be built someday to solve the station problems, but the odds of finding funding for this massive project are about nil, especially in Georgia's current political climate, though the project still has never been canceled. All of this put together means that it is a longshot for a Chicago-Florida service along this route to happen anytime soon if ever.

However, I do have some good news that may increase the chances of this route someday becoming reality. First, the L&I tracks mentioned above are scheduled to be upgraded and signalized as per a new leasing agreement between CSX and the L&I. The L&I will still own the tracks and WILL retain the authority to allow revenue passenger service, but CSX will own the upgrades. See here for more info on this agreement: https://www.csx.com/index.cfm/about-us/media/press-releases/louisville-indiana-railroad-and-csx-close-on-joint-infrastructure-upgrade-project-between-indianapolis-and-louisville/?mobileFormat=true

Second, you might not realize it, but the study for the Gulf Coast rail service restoration project recommended extending the CONO to ORL, essentially creating a Chicago-Florida train. Further, efforts for this service are moving along pretty quickly and the goal is to have the train up and running in 3-4 years. So we may actually have a Chicago-Florida train fairly soon, albeit not on the route discussed in this thread, but it may soon be possible to travel from Chicago to Florida by a one-seat train ride for the first time since 1979.
 
ATL ? Impossible for another train thru ATL until a new station and if new station is near or east of present station a flyover will have to be built at Howell CP.
 
Yeah, I don't know how they did it in this case. Their proposed schedule seems to be consistent with the L&N Gulf Wind to some extent. Possibly in the process of carrying out repairs after Katrina, CSX has actually improved the trackage and facilities some. But I don;t know that for sure.
I think there may also have been some atrocious padding in the schedule which was a side-effect of running through to LAX.
 
Chicago-Floridia service over the CHI-IND-LVL-NVL-CHT-ATL-MCN-JAX-ORL-TPA or MIA would have a huge ridership base and would serve a market demographic that it would appeal to (Elderly folks who can't drive long distances and/or anyone who isn't willing to deal with the hassles of flying.
Another CHI-Florida route could be CHI-IND-LVL-Lexington-Knoxville-Chattanooga-ATL-Savannah-Florida. That Knoxville-Chattanooga-ATL corridor has potential for two or more daily trains each way.
 
Chicago-Floridia service over the CHI-IND-LVL-NVL-CHT-ATL-MCN-JAX-ORL-TPA or MIA would have a huge ridership base and would serve a market demographic that it would appeal to (Elderly folks who can't drive long distances and/or anyone who isn't willing to deal with the hassles of flying.
Another CHI-Florida route could be CHI-IND-LVL-Lexington-Knoxville-Chattanooga-ATL-Savannah-Florida. That Knoxville-Chattanooga-ATL corridor has potential for two or more daily trains each way.
I'd need to check, but IIRC back in the 50s there were three routes which went Chicago-Miami. The times were basically identical between the trains in Florida and at CHI (and at one or two intermediate points)...basically three railroads each ran a train every third day so as not to cannibalize the market, but coordinated so customers had a basically stable schedule at key cities where possible.

Edit: Ok, you had the Dixie Flagler, the City of Miami, and the South Wind. Identical timecards in CHI and between JAX-MIA but different intermediate routings. That's part of the punch-up here: There's not enough definable business for three routes (and heck, I don't even know what tracks might be missing) but there are different route options which serve intermediate markets and all of those routings have a clear case for being chosen.

Edit 2: Some more thoughts:

-Martin County wanted the Amtrak service but not the FEC service, probably because the Amtrak service had stops around Martin County (IIRC Jupiter was one stop on both proposed trains) while the FEC service doesn't have any to start with.

-If I'm AAF/FEC, I'd want some compensation but I'd want the Amtrak trains in the following order:

--(1) Palmetto/Silver Palm. Can operate at night and be dispatched as if it were a fast freight instead of a high-speed passenger train. Arguably almost totally non-competitive with FEC services.

--(2) Silver Meteor. Only has two host RRs total (north of JAX, that is) and one of those is Amtrak. CSX treats the train pretty well and uses it to hook their cars onto. I'd force an agreement on equipment (must be high-floor compatible, etc.) as well so the train would be able to be dispatched the same as the planned FEC trains...and honestly, I might well demand to have the operating crew drawn from "my" people as well as a say in any tickets being sold "internally" (e.g. within the JAX-MIA stretch).

--(3) Silver Star. At present I would NOT want this train. Ignoring the Tampa backup, that little ten-mile stretch of NS would give me a fit in FEC's shoes since that sets up buck-passing and dispatch problems. I frankly would demand either a hell of a pad at JAX to make up for possible issues or a re-route onto the planned S-line south of Richmond if that came to pass so as to avoid those issues.

Given the issues with Amtrak equipment at times, I might well just say "Guess what? If you're sending a passenger train down our tracks, it gets a Brightline locomotive, a Brightline operating crew, and we get some cut of the revenue to/from Brightline stations. We're not going to have you send a train down our line with a 'different' locomotive which proceeds to break down and foul our main line."
 
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ATL ? Impossible for another train thru ATL until a new station and if new station is near or east of present station a flyover will have to be built at Howell CP.
I don't know if skipping ATL is a deal breaker for a Chicago-Florida train but the old Floridian bypassed ATL so could that be a possibility just to bring Amtrak back to Louisville and Nashville?
 
However, I do have some good news that may increase the chances of this route someday becoming reality. First, the L&I tracks mentioned above are scheduled to be upgraded and signalized as per a new leasing agreement between CSX and the L&I. The L&I will still own the tracks and WILL retain the authority to allow revenue passenger service, but CSX will own the upgrades. See here for more info on this agreement: https://www.csx.com/index.cfm/about-us/media/press-releases/louisville-indiana-railroad-and-csx-close-on-joint-infrastructure-upgrade-project-between-indianapolis-and-louisville/?mobileFormat=true
This opens up possibilities I hadn't thought of.
Shortlines tend to be *way* more friendly to passenger rail than, well, CSX.

CSX is not very interested in the Indianapolis-Chicago line of the Cardinal.

With the track upgraded from Indianapolis to Louisville, if the states of Indiana and Kentucky, or the cities, could somehow get interested enough to put real money into the route, a Chicago-Indianapolis-Louisville train becomes quite plausible. The stations at Jeffersonville and Louisville remain intact. The biggest upgrades needed would still be from Chicago to Indianapolis.
 
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As I have stated before, a Chicago to Florida train through the mid south whether it be via Atlanta or Birmingham will only be successful if it is competitive with driving times and is dependable. Amtrak's Floridian which I had a lot of experience with was not dependable often arriving in Chicago 12 hours late. That is the reason it was discontinued in 1979 because the patronage that the City of Miami and Southwind had developed in the 1950s through early 1970 dissappeared. I heard many, many Amtrak passegers state "Never Again!" after arriving from Florida on a train that did not function properly. There's no point in making projections when there is no longer a market for that travel.
 
Amtrak's Floridian which I had a lot of experience with was not dependable often arriving in Chicago 12 hours late. That is the reason it was discontinued in 1979 because the patronage that the City of Miami and Southwind had developed in the 1950s through early 1970 dissappeared.
The Floridian was discontinued in 1979 as part of system-wide cuts initiated by the Carter Administration.

There remains a market for every other train which survived the bloody 1979 and mid-90's cutbacks, and there further remain markets for restoration of such services as New Orleans to Florida. What makes you think there would not be a market for Chicago (Mid-West) to Florida (southeast) travel?
 
Amtrak's Floridian which I had a lot of experience with was not dependable often arriving in Chicago 12 hours late. That is the reason it was discontinued in 1979 because the patronage that the City of Miami and Southwind had developed in the 1950s through early 1970 dissappeared.
I traveled on the Florida and pre- Amtrak Southwind numerous times from the early 1960s until 1979. I know lots of people in the Chicago area as well as along potential routes. I have had lots of discussion about such a train. I know what people think.



The Floridian was discontinued in 1979 as part of system-wide cuts initiated by the Carter Administration.

There remains a market for every other train which survived the bloody 1979 and mid-90's cutbacks, and there further remain markets for restoration of such services as New Orleans to Florida. What makes you think there would not be a market for Chicago (Mid-West) to Florida (southeast) travel?
 
Right Amtrak has to have enough dependable equipment and dependable schedule.

As far as routing BHM - Montgomery - Waycross - JAX the CSX downgrade of the Bow line for only local service 25 MPH operation may eliminate that route.

BHM - Columbus, Ga - Tifton has also been seriously downgraded in Ga and Cof Ga in Alabama not in great shape..

BHM - LaGrange, Ga - Manchester - Old ACL line to JAX. Now that is a possibility however the CSX Lineville sub is very busy with BOW line reroutes both from BHM and Mobile for Haz Mat.
 
The best route really is to drop down to Atlanta and get on Norfolk Southern there to go to Macon and then down to JAX. One thing is that NS is trying to make that an intermodal route so speed limits aren't too shabby. Plus your picking up two big cities.
 
The best route really is to drop down to Atlanta and get on Norfolk Southern there to go to Macon and then down to JAX. One thing is that NS is trying to make that an intermodal route so speed limits aren't too shabby. Plus your picking up two big cities.
 
If you could get the average speed up to 55 mph (approximately equal to the SWC), you could get a schedule like:

Chicago 8:50 AM 5:00 PM

Indianapolis 6:15 AM 9:30 PM

Louisville 4:10 AM 11:40 PM

Nashville 12:20 AM 3:30 AM

Atlanta 6:50 PM 9:00 AM

Jacksonville 12:45 PM 3:10 PM

Miami 6:00 AM 9:50 PM

By sacrificing reasonable service times at Louisville and Nashville, this schedule creates a business-friendly overnight timing between Chicago and Atlanta and a very long day train between Atlanta and Miami. It also only uses three train sets. Realistic? Probably not... but we can dream, I guess.

Ainam "I would ride that Chicago-Atlanta section in a heartbeat" Kartma
I too would ride this train any time.
 
If you could get the average speed up to 55 mph (approximately equal to the SWC), you could get a schedule like:

Chicago 8:50 AM 5:00 PM

Indianapolis 6:15 AM 9:30 PM

Louisville 4:10 AM 11:40 PM

Nashville 12:20 AM 3:30 AM

Atlanta 6:50 PM 9:00 AM

Jacksonville 12:45 PM 3:10 PM

Miami 6:00 AM 9:50 PM

By sacrificing reasonable service times at Louisville and Nashville, this schedule creates a business-friendly overnight timing between Chicago and Atlanta and a very long day train between Atlanta and Miami. It also only uses three train sets. Realistic? Probably not... but we can dream, I guess.
I think the question is whether this train is scheduled more for end to end traffic or the intermediate markets. If you want to bring back service to areas which haven't had service since the late 70's (Louisville and Nashville) then having it scheduled during the graveyard shift is going to be a hard sell to these areas (or you can use the theory they will be happy just to have a train).

Looking at the gaps between cities not counting JAX-MIA (ORL is in the middle), the largest gap is between ATL-JAX. Ideally the graveyard shift would be between there but a 6am arrival into JAX puts it pretty close to the Silver Star (although if it skips TPA it would arrive MIA significantly earlier than the SS). There is a 5.5 hr gap southbound (not counting the time difference) between ATL and Nashville but that would put it either after midnight on one end and/or before 6am on the other.

The ideal southbound schedule in Florida to give passengers a choice in times would either be the proposed schedule arriving in ORL/MIA at night (but leaving Louisville and Nashville in the dark) or to arrive in ORL early and MIA around lunchtime (it would help train to cruise traffic which I have heard some are looking for). That would put JAX in the graveyard shift but that might not be as bad since they have two trains already (but any possibility of ATL-JAX traffic goes away). If you flipped the southbound schedule 12 hrs that leaves CHI at 5am. Push it so it leaves CHI at 7am you get Louisville 11:30AM, 1:40PM, Nashville 5:30PM, ATL 11:00PM, JAX 5:10AM (not too bad), MIA 11:50AM (assumedly ORL around 7:30-8am). Then CHI-ATL becomes an all day affair with no chance to sleep it off so that would hurt business between the two cities.

Northbound if you flip it 12 hours you get an evening departure from MIA (current Silvers are both morning) with only JAX during the graveyard shift (and 12:45am isn't that bad). Again, ATL-CHI is an all day affair.

Other than Louisville & Nashville, the other potential I see is ATL-JAX-MIA service. The schedule suggested between ATL and MIA would fit very well with the Crescent, perhaps as through cars (southbound can always be pushed back but northbound could be a problem unless you put MIA before 6am). Of course considering how things are in ATL now good luck with that.
 
Right Amtrak has to have enough dependable equipment and dependable schedule.

As far as routing BHM - Montgomery - Waycross - JAX the CSX downgrade of the Bow line for only local service 25 MPH operation may eliminate that route.

BHM - Columbus, Ga - Tifton has also been seriously downgraded in Ga and Cof Ga in Alabama not in great shape..

BHM - LaGrange, Ga - Manchester - Old ACL line to JAX. Now that is a possibility however the CSX Lineville sub is very busy with BOW line reroutes both from BHM and Mobile for Haz Mat.
I would route the train BHM - Montgomery - Bainbridge - Tallahassee - JAX, of only to claim that the train reached Florida earlier.
 
I think the best schedule and routing is NS from ATL-JAX and that being the overnight section. JAX is a servicing stop so early arriving trains sometimes spend 45 minutes there already. There are two platform tracks available so I think the best solution is to schedule the train from Chicago and the SS to arrive at the same time in both directions and hold there for 1-2 hours to allow for connections. The Chicago train could then be sent down the FEC and people from both the NEC and Chicago could access any station on the Florida peninsula either directly or via a cross platform transfer at JAX. Service would also be restored to the FEC without any lost service. On the sections of the route with Brightline trains, the stops can be discharge only southbound and receive only northbound to help gain cooperation from FEC. However, for this to work the schedule needs to be at least 1 1/2 hours faster CHI-ATL than the original post in this thread.
 
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If you could get the average speed up to 55 mph (approximately equal to the SWC), you could get a schedule like:

Chicago 8:50 AM 5:00 PM

Indianapolis 6:15 AM 9:30 PM

Louisville 4:10 AM 11:40 PM

Nashville 12:20 AM 3:30 AM

Atlanta 6:50 PM 9:00 AM

Jacksonville 12:45 PM 3:10 PM

Miami 6:00 AM 9:50 PM

By sacrificing reasonable service times at Louisville and Nashville, this schedule creates a business-friendly overnight timing between Chicago and Atlanta and a very long day train between Atlanta and Miami. It also only uses three train sets. Realistic? Probably not... but we can dream, I guess.

Ainam "I would ride that Chicago-Atlanta section in a heartbeat" Kartma
If you think your schedule would work look at this schedule of the 1951 Royal Palm. TODAY it could all combine / split at Cincinnati. It was A SOU RR express CIN <> JAX. Just servicing and crew change locations. with that long of a train this poster wonders how it navigated the CHA terminal station back in ? The poor track CHI <> CIN today would need improving but it also covers the 3C corridor. If all connections are called the Royal Palm or another name might work just like Builder split at Spokane being over 750 miles? Once again many more cars needed. At least 5 train sets ?

Note 5 sleepers from Detroit. Detroit would not support that many now ? Also coaches, diner & lounge to MIA. Be sure to read carefully as some other RR's cars to CIN connected to other SOU trains including some to Tampa. Maybe a STL - Nashville <> CHA connecting Royal Palm train ?

EDIT:: NS's rat hole division should be faster today than this schedule ?. Also CIN cithy owns CIN- CHA that might work much like the NC DOT's work ? Also the relationship to a Cardinal might be considered ?

http://www.streamlinerschedules.com/concourse/track2/newroyalpalm195103.html
 
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Maybe a daily Cardinal could carry Royal Palm cars to CIN ? + eastbound Cardinal could carry passengers to / from the south ?

Would give Hialeah a quicker connection to the BEE shop ?
 
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OK, these are the cities to pitch it to:

(1) Cincinnati, the owner of the route

(2) Chatanooga, which for touristy reasons would like a train back

(3) Lexington

But I think it's dependent on better service from Cincy north.
 
Believe that for minimum costs ( still many bucks ) attach cars to a daily Cardinal to Cincinnati then use NS route to CHA - ATL - JAX ( Old Royal Palm ) and then regular route to MIA. ~ 840 miles of a new route. Then later add Nashville - Chattanooga connecting cars.
 
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