Florida Governor Approves SunRail

[saxman]

No, it's not about CSX being the "big bad corporation." It's about a political system that favors public transit only when it benefits a major contributor. I think Florida's relationship with passenger rail has made it clear that's how things work.

Not that I know anything about the SunRail porject, but isn't this essentially a public-private partnership, or sort of like it? Stuff like that has been going on for centuries and why is it such a bad thing?

 

[jis]

No, it's not about CSX being the "big bad corporation." It's about a political system that favors public transit only when it benefits a major contributor. I think Florida's relationship with passenger rail has made it clear that's how things work.

Not that I know anything about the SunRail porject, but isn't this essentially a public-private partnership, or sort of like it? Stuff like that has been going on for centuries and why is it such a bad thing?

Besides if one does not believe in the Capitalist system involving small, medium and big business entities benefiting from economic activities and being the primary driver of same, I suppose one really is asking for the second coming of Marx.

 

[George Harris]

How about back to the subject, which the project, not political arguments, posturing, grandstanding, whatever.

I think this is a great thing. Sounds reasnoably well thought out for these things. It is a busy corridor. Give people a good system to ride and it will whet their appetite for more. When you remember that railroad companies have been paying property taxes to every locality they run through since their tracks first went down to call any of this stuff corporate welfare is laughable.

 

[George Harris]

I haven't seen what equipment they're planning, but I've heard both the tried and true (if death trap) MP36 with Bombardier bi-levels, and some sort of DMU (originally CRC, but dunno if their "successor" is still in business).

Suggest that you look into the FRA requirements on vehicles. Anything that by any stretcb of the imagination could be called a death trap simply will not be allowed to run.

 

[MattW]

I haven't seen what equipment they're planning, but I've heard both the tried and true (if death trap) MP36 with Bombardier bi-levels, and some sort of DMU (originally CRC, but dunno if their "successor" is still in business).

Suggest that you look into the FRA requirements on vehicles. Anything that by any stretcb of the imagination could be called a death trap simply will not be allowed to run.

George, I have a great deal of respect for you, and will happily defer to you on most rail-oriented topics. However, while I may not be an expert, it doesn't take an expert to recognize bad railcar design when stuff flies apart at the seams instead of crumpling or even accordioning.

I have looked, and I failed to find the section of the crash standards that indicated that railcars should come apart at the seams and telescope into themselves:

the forward one-quarter of the coach (encompassing the intermediate-level passenger compartment, which is above the lead-end truck) separated at the center sill and telescoped into the carbody,

Unless I'm mistaken, the FRA crash standards to which you refer indicate 800,000 pounds compression statically applied. Which unless I'm interpreting the CFR wrong means essentially: place car in clamp, slowly tighten until scale reads 800,000. That's significantly different conditions than a locomotive suddenly being shoved into the car from a sudden collision. Additionally, CFR Title 49 Part 238.203© states:

When overloaded in compression, the body structure of passenger equipment shall be designed, to the maximum extent possible, to fail by buckling or crushing, or both, of structural members rather than by fracture of structural members or failure of structural connections.

Based on the NTSB report, it appears that structural connections failed when overloaded in compression (by sudden application of locomotive). The only saving grace I see for the BiLevels appears to be back up in (b) of that same part:

Passenger equipment placed in service before November 8, 1999 is presumed to comply with the requirements of paragraph (a)(1) of this section, unless the railroad operating the equipment has knowledge, or FRA makes a showing, that such passenger equipment was not built to the requirements specified in paragraph (a)(1).

Since the original BiLevels were delivered in 1992 when Metrolink started, and/or the design stemming from 1978, are we just presuming that the equipment is not in fact the deathtrap I claim it to be? Simply presuming that something is safe because it was placed in service before 1999 seems rather unsafe to me and my unexperienced mind.

The railfan side of me hates Metrolink's new crash energy management cars with a burning vengeance, but the practical side of me agrees that such designs is what our rail systems need in the %.00001 chance that our signaling systems fail, or the crew or dispatchers center make a mistake.

Imagine if during a head on collision, the engine of a particular car model had a habit of telescoping into the passenger compartment. Would that not also be a deathtrap and a bad design to be immediately remedied?

Fortunately, there have been very few collisions, which given that the BiLevels are not universally used means few instances of collision, with Glendale and Chatsworth being the only two I know of so, (unfortunately for this discussion) the information about the BiLevel's crash performance is somewhat limited. I am also unable to find the NTSB report on the Glendale collision which was admittedly very different circumstances than the head on collision of Chatsworth, but may have further enhanced either of our positions.

If I am getting this wrong, please enlighten me as I'd actually like to learn, but based on the NTSB report and the CFRs (which I admittedly might be misinterpreting due to my inexperience) the cars do appear to be less than safe.

 

[jis]

SunRail is purchasing the following equipment:

4 Bombardier bi-level Coaches

9 Bombardier bi-level Cab Cars

7 MP36PH-3C Diesel Engines

as reported in Orlando Sentinel.

So apparently FRA has no objections to such.

 

[MikefromCrete]

The Bombardier cars are widely used in commuter service, mostly on the newer startup services, such as Sounder in Seattle, Trinity Rail in Dallas-Fort Worth, Rail Runner in New Mexico, Coaster in San Diego, Tri-Rail in Miami and Utah. If the FRA had any objections, you would think they would have brought them up by now.

 

[George Harris]

The 800,000 pound compressive load is derides as excessive and completely unreasonable by all the European vehicle manufacturers.

Teh pre 1999 "presumption" is essentially a grandfather clause to avoid having to pull out of service all older equipment. Use of presumption is leaving a door open to go after the obviously inadequate and unsafe.

 

[George Harris]

I am also unable to find the NTSB report on the Glendale collision which was admittedly very different circumstances than the head on collision of Chatsworth, but may have further enhanced either of our positions.

Thought I would look up Glendale. The NTSB website used to be fairly easy to go to and find accident reports. Appears that such is no longer the case. I could not find it either. Struck out on a reasonable web search as well. I guess some paranoid somewhere decided that it was dangerous to have these public documents actually available to members of the public. If you really want it bad enough a Freedom of Information Act inquiry giving the date and time should get it, but I have no idea how much trouble that would be or how long it would take.

 

[Anderson]

I'm going to punt something out here for the "SunRail is a waste": Look, it's not ideal, but I see it as being a potential nucleus of a larger system. Look at how far the line goes out the north side of town, especially in Phase 2. Give it a few years and someone will say "Why not extend this to Jacksonville?" Also, presuming that the interstate RoW remains in place, I think you could get the same said of Tampa. JAX-ORL in the long term is nothing to sneeze at, and JAX-ORL-TPA is actually a respectable system.

The other thing is that while this isn't an ideal system, it's far from the mess that the HSR was looking to be (especially since there, you had the suggestion of profitability).

Edit: To explain, Phase 2 goes all the way to DLD, or about 50-60 miles from ORL. I don't think a couple of corridor trains running ORL-JAX is too much of a stretch to see, particularly with the plans being punted around for expanded service in the state. It won't happen next week, but I've got to say that I see this as a longer-term project now that we got that white elephant out of the picture. Granted, those $2.4 billion could've set up an amazing state-wide system, but I digress.

Edit 2: To explain my views on the subject, I don't see the use of eminent domain as a cost-saving measure...but I could see it used effectively as a "We are running these trains and we'll let the court sort out how much we owe you" tool.

 

[jis]

Edit 2: To explain my views on the subject, I don't see the use of eminent domain as a cost-saving measure...but I could see it used effectively as a "We are running these trains and we'll let the court sort out how much we owe you" tool.

One of my points in my ramble about eminent domain was that it is often better to try the negotiation route first before bringing in the eminent domain troops, because the courts generally will be more sympathetic towards the property owners if no negotiation was attempted at all. Also often one can get a better deal through the give and take of negotiations than through the hammer of eminent domain proceedings. Eminent domain is appropriate when negotiations fail.

However, there are places where eminent domain simply will not work, mainly because the price determined will be higher than what anyone can afford, e.g. to try to apply eminent domain to run the Sunset limited daily on UP.

My suspicion is if the SunRail venture had gone in for meinent domain they would eventually have paid as much as twice what they are coughing up all told at present. That is what makes the claims that SunRail is corporate welfare totally absurd. If I were an UP holding out for making the most money out of it, the they handled this is not even close to optimal.

 

[Shawn Ryu]

They should probably buy used cars from Metra, and Metrolink to save money, no point getting new equipments when they are just starting.

 

[jis]

They should probably buy used cars from Metra, and Metrolink to save money, no point getting new equipments when they are just starting.

Most new operations get at least some new cars. Even those that got used cars seem to have them as backups and reserve rather than for day to day ops. Whether there is a point or not depends on what the relative costs of maintaining new cars vs. used cars works out to be. Even UTA which got a unch of NJT Comets for cheap does not use them too much. They are all parked in a single line at their yard, while they mostly use new Bombardier cars.

 

[George Harris]

The Nashville system bought all used cars and engines. They put their whole system together at minimal expense. It was interesting to watch how they did it verss how Albuquerque did it at about the same time using new everything. Somehow Richardson really had the fix it when it came to getting money.

Emminent Domain is usually regarded as a last resort by all parties. However there are some large businesses that as a matter of policy tell government or other agencies with Emminent Domain powers to simply go for it when the agency wants some of their land because that way their land people do not have to justify the final price to anyone.

 

[John Bredin]

They should probably buy used cars from Metra, and Metrolink to save money, no point getting new equipments when they are just starting.

Don't know about Metrolink, but while Metra was indeed selling off its old carbon-steel (flat-sided) cars to start-up commuter operations as well as scrappers, in the last few years they've been scrambling to repurchase them and throw them back into service as fast as they can be put back in Metra paint and signage. Until Metra gets a new order of cars* nobody's buying used Metra cars but Metra itself. :lol:

*Metra has new-ish electric-multiple-unit (EMU) gallery cars for the Metra Electric line, but (1) not enough to replace the old Highliner EMUs, just supplement them, and (2) for several years now, no new gallery cars for the other, diesel-powered, Metra lines.