ascii42
Train Attendant
Atlanta, for one.Weren’t there a few cities that had both a “Union Station”, and a “Terminal Station”, in the South?
FRA Long Distance Service Study discussion
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Yes...I remember those....
rookzie
Train Attendant
Weren’t there a few cities that had both a “Union Station”, and a “Terminal Station”, in the South?
As far as I can recall, only Atlanta and Chattanooga had Union Stations existing concurrently with Terminal Stations. Birmingham had a "Union Station" and a "Terminal Station" for a year or so, after the Southern Railway built its new Terminal Station in 1908. All except one company (Louisville & Nashville) moved into the Terminal Station in 1909, at which time Union Station simply became the "L&N Station".
Southern Railway chose to name its passenger handling facilities "Terminal Station", because they usually were constructed near a Southern Ry. railyard terminal. To some, "Terminal Station" may sound redundant, why to others it also may seem to be an oxymoron for such a designation. In the latter case, some seem to limit the use of "terminal" (in passenger-rail context) to "stub terminals", where the tracks physically end. But a terminal is defined as a place where vehicles, passengers, or goods begin or end a journey. So, this does not mean that tracks of a terminal cannot simply pass through rather than end at the facility. CUT (Cincinnati Union Terminal) was major pass-through facility, while SLUS (St. Louis Union Station) was all stub.
Atlanta Terminal Station also was such a facility, where trains either passed through or geographically "terminated" as end of route. Southern Ry. had many "terminal stations" ─ most simply small wayside depots. Nearly all of them where pass-through or pass-by, except the large Beaux-Arts Terminal Station in New Orleans, which was leveled following the opening of NOUPT in 1954.
The first photo setting is the railroad gulch of a still rather active Atlanta Terminal Station in 1963, showing the arrival of the SAL (Seaboard Air Line RR) "Silver Comet" (DC to Birmingham). The B&W photos show the front and rear of the Terminal Station headhouse, sometime at least no earlier than 1959. The ATC (Atlanta Transit Co.) still operated a large fleet of Pullman trolleybuses (shown on viaduct), as well as those built by SLCC (St. Louis Car Co.) into the early 1960s.
Atlanta Terminal Station and Union Station were only about a block and a half walking distance apart, although transferring between the two with luggage was best done via taxi.
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rookzie
Train Attendant
Good points!
One place that used both names at different times was Denver Union Station. It was originally built and owned by The Denver Union Terminal Railway Company (jointly owned by the UP, D&RGW, CB&Q, C&S, and AT&SF). I believe the CRI&P was a “tenant”.
I have seen references to it as both Union Station (DUS), and Union Terminal (DUT).
rookzie
Train Attendant
Yes, the "Crip", as I sometimes refer to it from laziness, had been a well-known tenant of DUS. Most older locals recall the "Rocky Mountain Rocket", the Rock Island's (CRI&P) long-distance run from La Salle St. Station (Chicago) to Denver and to Colorado Springs (with the train splitting and combining at Limon, CO). It was canceled in 1966, as it just couldn't compete with the faster times of the Union Pacific and the Burlington (CB&Q) runs.
It still remains interesting in my mind that a few select passenger stations either were or still are referred to in name as "Union Depot" ("-UD", the full names of which were abbreviated as such ─ "SPUD" (St. Paul) and FSUD (Fort Street [Detroit; razed 1972]). Locals (and perhaps regionals) usually have referred to restored Beaux-Arts-Classical Joliet Union Station (its official name and now a mixed-use "civic" structure) as "JUD" or simply "Union Depot". The now-closed nearby "UD" interlocking tower (in the northeast quadrant of the interlocking crossing), always has been referred to as UD Tower (Union Depot Tower), and remains today as a museum, part of the Joliet Gateway Center. The term "UD Tower" continues to be a railroad control point.
As far as a new passenger facility in Atlanta is concerned, the current status of downtown Atlanta's former passenger-rail complex was predictable as far back as 1969, with the USDOT “RAILPAX” proposal of 1969, which in turn eventually led to the enactment of the Rail Passenger Service Act in October 1970, a.k.a. the creation of Amtrak. With the railroads itching to unload their passenger runs, the larger cities were hovering like vultures over urban real properties, in anticipation of wholesale passenger-run discontinuances. Modern-day mergers, particularly that of the Penn Central, but notwithstanding those of CSXT and the NS, have resulted in the removal of nearly all infrastructure needed for accessing these larger urban passenger facilities. With the mindset of those in power and with then-fledgling Amtrak having been on a shoe-string budget, all odds had been almost overwhelmingly turned in favor of forgoing the use of larger and older facilities, particularly at that point in time (1970-'71).
That said, it might have been possible if not probable that at least one of Atlanta's downtown stations could have remained in use today, had not previous Chicago-to-Jacksonville service via Nashville and Chattanooga (the "Dixie Flyer") been canceled in 1965 ─ discontinued north of Atlanta, and altogether in 1969. Had that service remained intact through April 1971 and had it been a candidate for retention by Amtrak, then very possibly (discounting an Amshack replacement facility), Atlanta Terminal Station might have remained for use. That could have accommodated service to Jacksonville via the former Central of Georgia (Southern Ry.) to Macon and Albany, and via the SCL to and Waycross and beyond. As with any other large station, Terminal Station would have needed a serious make-over by 1971, and the Southern Ry. chose to simply close it in 1970, in favor of the current Peachtree Station, locally often referred to as the Brookwood Station. That Southern had opted to close Terminal Station when it did signaled that the die already was cast for its eventual fate.
So, the massive loss of real properties to redevelopment has cramped the number of alternatives for an Atlanta hub, that is, without some serious political will of stakeholders working in concert.
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Chattanooga and Atlanta situations are good examples of issues that implementation of most of the FRA LD trains will raise. If any of these routes are implemented, we may end up with southern versions of Midway, MN for some indefinite period.
The Rock, as it was called in its last years, owned the line from Limon to Colorado Springs, where it ended at the D&RGW station. The line from Limon to Denver was trackage rights over UP's former Kansas Pacific line. The Rock only had a few miles of its own trackage, leaving the UP at Sandown Jct., and ran its freight trains over it to the D&RGW's North Yard.
rookzie
Train Attendant
Correction in my previous comment of a photo scene at Atlanta Terminal Station. The termini of the SAL "Silver Comet" were New York and Birmingham, (not DC and B'Ham).
The train suffered a slow and "painful" death (as opposed to a sudden discontinuance), beginning in 1968 with the loss of its section to and from Portsmouth, Va. (split and combined at Norlina, NC), and with successive cutbacks on its primary mainline route in 1969, starting with Birmingham-Atlanta, DC and Richmond, and finally between Richmond and Atlanta. It was like a death by dismemberment.
JamesWhitcombRiley
Lead Service Attendant
More about the "Meeting Series 4" presentation PDF, the closest thing so far to a full report from the FRA Long-Distance Service Study, June 2024.
Page 59:
- It's claimed the capital costs were calculated by an average for what such work takes in the U.S., not based on local conditions. This claim is supported by page 59 of the study, shown below, though the costs estimates for each route are given as ranges. The claim comes from a reddit thread, commenting on a Railway Age opinion piece by Mark Meyer, ""FRA L-D Study Reveals ‘Interesting’ Numbers." The article is only for paid subscribers, not free accounts.
- From the same source, the preference was for routes that do not duplicate current service. Hence some long routes in out-of-the-way places, or on poor freight rail.
- From the same source, if multiple routes were proposed to the same station, or on some of the same track segments, the costs were not combined. This seems obvious. For example, three new trains are proposed for Atlanta, which needs a new station.
Page 59:
Atlanta was one.Weren’t there a few cities that had both a “Union Station”, and a “Terminal Station”, in the South?
danasgoodstuff
OBS Chief
https://fralongdistancerailstudy.org/final-report/
the NARP page linked above has links to both the full text of the final report and the appendixes
the NARP page linked above has links to both the full text of the final report and the appendixes
