FRA's Corridor ID Program and possible new Corridors

[jis]

Then what will the 12 billion dollars in off NEC expansions be spent on if not new corridor routes?

You are correct. The IIJA funds for corridors are to be disbursed based on the Corridor ID study. The LD Study is entirely separate from this. My mistake.

Isn't it what this NOFO is about? Federal Register :: Request Access

See above...

 

[Free Jaffa]

Historically, FRA has treated grant applications as classified information. These are somewhat unique so it's possible that they might treat them differently.

The real word you were looking for, is “for internal uses only”(FIUO).

 

[DavidSh]

The Notice of Solicitation says that the FRA has to make a first report by May 13 of this year, including which corridors are selected for development. Nothing about which were rejected.

 

[user 14106]

It should be noted that even advocacy groups could submit ideas to corridor ID which really seems to be about developing a master plan and gauging interest. Actual grant funding for route development will be via the CRISI program and the fed state intercity partnership program.

 

[NES28]

This is not a correct statement. There were two stages in the Corridor ID program. Last May FRA requested "expressions of Interest"; anyone could respond. This year FRA issued a Notice of Funding Opportunity (NOFO) under which government agencies could apply, with all selected agencies to receive $500,000, per corridor, to pay for development of a scope and budget for performing a Service Development Plan under a succeeding grant. Remaining steps are Preliminary Engineering/Environmental Clearance, final design/right-of-way acquisition, construction, and testing/commissioning.

 

[jis]

I just learned through the grapevine that Florida DOT in collaboration with Amtrak and with the blessing of Governor DeSantis has applied for IIJA funding for intra Florida service connecting Jacksonville - Orlando - Tampa and Miami.

 

[joelkfla]

I just learned through the grapevine that Florida DOT in collaboration with Amtrak and with the blessing of Governor DeSantis has applied for IIJA funding for intra Florida service connecting Jacksonville - Orlando - Tampa and Miami.

It would be nice to take a morning train from Orlando to Jacksonville, and an evening train back. It would be nicer if the bus from the station to downtown JAX ran more than once an hour. It would be nicer still if they restored a stop at the old station, now the convention center, which has Skyway transit to downtown.

 

[west point]

I just learned through the grapevine that Florida DOT in collaboration with Amtrak and with the blessing of Governor DeSantis has applied for IIJA funding for intra Florida service connecting Jacksonville - Orlando - Tampa and Miami.

Is this in addition to the 2 present Silver trains ? Now if this could be an extension of the Palmetto then that would be much to the good. If 2 more trains from JAX maybe one from JAX - Cocoa - on Brightline - Orlando. The problem of access to Orlando Amtrak station would be difficult. The third route would be the SAL line thru Ocala but almost certain no Orlando service. CSX would fight it but DeSantis being DeSantis who knows. Ideally on down to Sarasota but on to Ft Myers and Naples tooooo much restoration

 

[Anderson]

Is this in addition to the 2 present Silver trains ? Now if this could be an extension of the Palmetto then that would be much to the good. If 2 more trains from JAX maybe one from JAX - Cocoa - on Brightline - Orlando. The problem of access to Orlando Amtrak station would be difficult. The third route would be the SAL line thru Ocala but almost certain no Orlando service. CSX would fight it but DeSantis being DeSantis who knows. Ideally on down to Sarasota but on to Ft Myers and Naples tooooo much restoration

I presume this is in addition to those trains. They wouldn't need to study running trains that they are (in general) already running.

The fact that FL seems to be creeping towards commuter-ish service expanding in the state probably helps here. I wonder if CSX would be willing to part with the rest of the A-line from south of Jacksonville down to...wherever the handover is now (DeLand)? Also, doing this (and adding a few more stops) might act as a stand-in for the abandoned Sunrail extension to Deland (as well as getting the camel's nose into the tent for commuter service into Polk County and so on). If you can get to the point that all you really need for the commuter project are the trains and a few stations, that sure drops the sticker price...

[Also, there is every chance that service over into Tampa could end up somehow being used to help Brightline...which DeSantis is rumored to have some indirect interest in.]

 

[west point]

Anderson: It is Amtrak now Deland - Palatka. Palatka - JAX = CSX. Also had not heard Sun Rail stopping construction to Deland ???

 

[jis]

Is this in addition to the 2 present Silver trains ? Now if this could be an extension of the Palmetto then that would be much to the good. If 2 more trains from JAX maybe one from JAX - Cocoa - on Brightline - Orlando. The problem of access to Orlando Amtrak station would be difficult. The third route would be the SAL line thru Ocala but almost certain no Orlando service. CSX would fight it but DeSantis being DeSantis who knows. Ideally on down to Sarasota but on to Ft Myers and Naples tooooo much restoration

Let us not get way ahead of reality here. It is for exactly the specific route shown in the Connect US Map from Amtrak. FDOT has neither the staff nor the resources to chase after major battles with CSX or anyone else, and DeSantis has many other fish to fry at present. I doubt he has time for anything other than to affix one or two necessary signatures allowing others to start work.

I think the possible side effect of FDOT actually setting up a passenger rail management cell may be its greater involvement in the Florida - Gulf Coast Southern Rail Commission effort.

I presume this is in addition to those trains. They wouldn't need to study running trains that they are (in general) already running.

It is for the route shown in the Amtrak Connect US Map.

The fact that FL seems to be creeping towards commuter-ish service expanding in the state probably helps here. I wonder if CSX would be willing to part with the rest of the A-line from south of Jacksonville down to...wherever the handover is now (DeLand)?

Palatka to Amtrak and then CFRC from Deland to Poinciana. I don't think that will change, except maybe the JAX - Palatka segment. CSX's most important freight segment in Florida is JAX - Baldwin - Ocala - Lakeland - Tampa (access to Tampa Port) and they are unlikely to part from that.

Also, doing this (and adding a few more stops) might act as a stand-in for the abandoned Sunrail extension to Deland (as well as getting the camel's nose into the tent for commuter service into Polk County and so on). If you can get to the point that all you really need for the commuter project are the trains and a few stations, that sure drops the sticker price...

SunRail has not abandoned construction to Deland. As a matter of fact construction work is currently ongoing. Service begins sometime in 2024 if things proceed according to plan. The only station being added in Phase 2b is Deland.

[Also, there is every chance that service over into Tampa could end up somehow being used to help Brightline...which DeSantis is rumored to have some indirect interest in.]

I doubt that there will be any significant effect of this on Brightline for the next ten or so years, or at least until there is better transfer opportunity between Amtrak and Brightline somewhere in the Orlando area. I doubt DeSantis cares beyond just not being obstructive unlike his predecessor.

 

[west point]

JAX- Palaka will probably remain in CSX as long as the various mills remain operating there. even NS has some rights on that route in exchange for SOU abandoning Lake City = Palatka.

 

[jis]

JAX- Palaka will probably remain in CSX as long as the various mills remain operating there. even NS has some rights on that route in exchange for SOU abandoning Lake City = Palatka.

Both CSX and NS have whatever rights they had before the CFRC/Amtrak takeover of various part on those routes for local traffic, but no through traffic.

 

[Anderson]

I actually didn't realize that Amtrak had PAK-DLD. I thought that CFRC only acquired the section from roughly DLD south.

[I also stand corrected on the DLD front. Last I had seen, it was de-prioritized due to a lack of projected ridership in favor of focusing on the airport stuff.]

And...for it being such a small town, I never cease to be amazed at how many lines met at Palatka.

As to the Amtrak ConnectUS map...interesting. That implies 3x/day on the route(s), which (if in addition to existing Amtrak service) is not a trivial add. I think that'd technically get intrastate frequencies back up to where they were around A-Day.

[Then again, Florida tried something similar a few decades back and the train didn't "take". But that was also the mid-1980s...]

As to Brightline...my honest question is whether it wouldn't make sense to have a common station in Tampa (even if Amtrak was very much the "tenant") and what the practical issues would be there. Miami is capable of having a second operator as a tenant (Tri-Rail), as is Orlando (Sunrail).

 

[jis]

[Then again, Florida tried something similar a few decades back and the train didn't "take". But that was also the mid-1980s...]

That was the Silver Palm v1.0. It was almost designed to fail, and it did.

As to Brightline...my honest question is whether it wouldn't make sense to have a common station in Tampa (even if Amtrak was very much the "tenant") and what the practical issues would be there.

The currently planned Brightline Station in Tampa is an elevated one adjacent to the throat of Tampa Union Station. It is quite conceivable that both could be connected by an elevated walkway.

Miami is capable of having a second operator as a tenant (Tri-Rail), as is Orlando (Sunrail).

Amtrak is a tenant (of FDOT) at Orlando and will be a tenant (of FDOT) at MIC in Miami. Amtrak is also a tenant (of the City of Tampa and CSX) at Tampa Union Station, FDOT at Kissimmee and FDOT and City of Winter Park at Winter Park.

 

[Mailliw]

It would certainly be interesting to see Amtrak and Brightline competing on the same routes.

 

[jis]

It would certainly be interesting to see Amtrak and Brightline competing on the same routes.

They won’t be the same routes. Only the same end points, and Amtrak will most likely be much slower and cheaper than Brightline.

 

[west point]

A big question is how Brightline will affect Amtrak ridership Orlando - West Palm Beach and south? Will afternoon Brightline departures from MIA and morning arrivals at MIA add more options for Amtrak persons to take cheaper Amtrak one way and Brightline the other? Have no idea.

Then again if Amtrak adds a trip(s) thru to NYP or just JAX with those Brightline times mentioned above then another unknown metric is entered into the equation.

 

[Anderson]

They won’t be the same routes. Only the same end points, and Amtrak will most likely be much slower and cheaper than Brightline.

Tampa-Miami is going to be interesting if it comes to pass. Brightline is likely to land in the ballpark of 4:30, maybe a bit more (I'm assuming a hair over 3:00 MIA-MCO and another 75-90 minutes MCO-TPA - I don't think they'll match the Florida HSR estimate of 1:04, and we don't have MIA-MCO timetable for them yet).

On Amtrak, TPA-MIA is timetabled at 5:26 either way as of right now, but it's possible that on a "local" train making the same stops (but not dealing with LD ridership), you might see 10-15 minutes trimmed out (depending on the LD padding situation vs the train presumably not being in "discharge only" mode, as well as any "sticking points" or slow spots that get fixed because of this project). So the time difference is looking like it's on par with some of the longer pairs on the Acela vs Regional front (and the pricing might be similar, too...)...

...and this is presuming the current timecards. If we go by the Amtrak route proposals, MIA-ORL and MIA-TPA both come in at 4:30-4:40. So that's...maybe a 20-30 minute difference for TPA-MIA, presuming neighboring stations. ORL-MIA vs MCO-MIA is trickier to pin down - the paper difference is probably about 90 minutes but accounting for getting to Brightline it's probably closer to 50-60 minutes. That being said, the catchment areas do differ (and I'll argue that if the folks planning this are smart, "Orlando-Miami" will run to WPK, SFA, or DLD as a terminus instead - there's no reason to pass on folks wanting to go from the north side of Orlando to South Florida/force a connection on them when you own/control the tracks, especially since getting across town is a pain at the wrong time of day).

[What can I say...if we want this sort of frequency back, dueling service situations were inevitable...]

 

[user 14106]

As it was importantly mentioned by various posters the routes are different and serve completely different intermediate stops meaning some communities would only see the Amtrak service. Florida is big and populous enough where there’s more than enough room for both services. Also Amtrak gets closer to the city center of Orlando than Brightline will and also reaches into the northern Orlando suburbs - and Amtrak of course has a much more direct Jacksonville - Orlando route. A big question is how the service will operate - what’s the best way to run the trains to capture the desired markets the most efficiently with the least amount of equipment - obviously running a few trains the full silver star route would capture everything with the least amount of equipment but on the other hand having every train make the full journey including the Tampa spur would make it tougher to capture passengers traveling between Winter Haven and south and Kissimmee and north. The only potential direct interaction with Brightline would be if they included looking at rerouting the silver meteor down the FEC route or splitting the silver trains which Amtrak did propose in that pitch paper a while back with FDOT. I doubt Brightline would be amenable to a competing short distance Amtrak train on its territory but they may be open to a long distance Amtrak train (or a section of a train) running to give some of the east coast communities access to longer distance services. These ideas though are probably more in the domain of the long distance study.

I’d add Florida will be in quite a strong position to be successful in its grants. I expect FRA to give very serious consideration to any serious proposals that come in from more politically conservative states that you may not expect to come to the table in regions where there isn’t already state supported corridor service.

 

[jis]

Tampa-Miami is going to be interesting if it comes to pass. Brightline is likely to land in the ballpark of 4:30, maybe a bit more (I'm assuming a hair over 3:00 MIA-MCO and another 75-90 minutes MCO-TPA - I don't think they'll match the Florida HSR estimate of 1:04, and we don't have MIA-MCO timetable for them yet).

On Amtrak, TPA-MIA is timetabled at 5:26 either way as of right now, but it's possible that on a "local" train making the same stops (but not dealing with LD ridership), you might see 10-15 minutes trimmed out (depending on the LD padding situation vs the train presumably not being in "discharge only" mode, as well as any "sticking points" or slow spots that get fixed because of this project). So the time difference is looking like it's on par with some of the longer pairs on the Acela vs Regional front (and the pricing might be similar, too...)...

...and this is presuming the current timecards. If we go by the Amtrak route proposals, MIA-ORL and MIA-TPA both come in at 4:30-4:40. So that's...maybe a 20-30 minute difference for TPA-MIA, presuming neighboring stations. ORL-MIA vs MCO-MIA is trickier to pin down - the paper difference is probably about 90 minutes but accounting for getting to Brightline it's probably closer to 50-60 minutes. That being said, the catchment areas do differ (and I'll argue that if the folks planning this are smart, "Orlando-Miami" will run to WPK, SFA, or DLD as a terminus instead - there's no reason to pass on folks wanting to go from the north side of Orlando to South Florida/force a connection on them when you own/control the tracks, especially since getting across town is a pain at the wrong time of day).

[What can I say...if we want this sort of frequency back, dueling service situations were inevitable...]

Between Orlando and Miami it is quite likely that Brightline Coach will cost more than double of what Amtrak costs in Coach, and probably the ratio will be similar in BC.

I agree that service should be designed to be run through at Orlando and not terminating at Orlando. The preliminary proposal is to run service from JAX to MIA. The details of how the ORL - TPA segment, which BTW is a significant ridership generator by itself, will be handled is unknown at present.

I agree that it will all look very similar to the Acela - NER dichotomy in the NEC land, and even more so after the NEC development proposal creates a separate routing for the HSR from the Regionals.

 

[Anderson]

Between Orlando and Miami it is quite likely that Brightline Coach will cost more than double of what Amtrak costs in Coach, and probably the ratio will be similar in BC.

I agree that service should be designed to be run through at Orlando and not terminating at Orlando. The preliminary proposal is to run service from JAX to MIA. The details of how the ORL - TPA segment, which BTW is a significant ridership generator by itself, will be handled is unknown at present.

I agree that it will all look very similar to the Acela - NER dichotomy in the NEC land, and even more so after the NEC development proposal creates a separate routing for the HSR from the Regionals.

Glad to hear that (on JAX-MIA). I was going by the Amtrak map, which suggested:
-MIA-TPA: 3x/day
-MIA-ORL: 2x/day
-TPA-JAX: 2x/day
I'd note that on the top ten city pairs for the Star pre-pandemic, the following showed up:

North:
TPA-ORL
TPA-KIS

South:
TPA-WPB
TPA-MIA
TPA-FLL
TPA-DFB

Likewise, for Tampa, of the top ten stations the only one not in Florida was NYP, and about 78% of the station's ridership (so about 86k/yr) was under 300 miles (so, intrastate), with a good deal of that apparently going to WPB (as near as I can tell from data on the Star plus extrapolations from the data for WPB and TPA, that city pair was about 20-25k/yr).

A proposal which extended one (or both, though the timing there might get clunky) of the MIA-ORL trains to JAX would certainly have room to offer a "filled out" schedule north of Orlando. That would actually be surprisingly useful for my purposes - the prospect of being able to go down to Palatka for a long jump weekend and cut off to Orlando (e.g. Disney/Universal) for a day if the weather isn't cooperating (or if I've gotten my jumps in early) would be nice, as would the ability to do an afternoon in Palatka without having to spend 4+ hours on the highway.

 

[NES28]

I am interested in trying to compile a list of Corridor ID applications. Since there is no public "official" list I have created the attached spreadsheet showing ones that I have seen publicly reported.

Do you know of any others?

 

[Paniolo Man]

I am interested in trying to compile a list of Corridor ID applications. Since there is no public "official" list I have created the attached spreadsheet showing ones that I have seen publicly reported.

Do you know of any others?

The Boise - SLC route is actually Boise - SLC - Vegas. It is being referred to as "The Desert Winds Corridor" and is jointly sponsored by the Utah Department of Transportation, Idaho Transportation Department, and Nevada Department of Transportation. With Expressions of support from Salt Lake City, the Utah Transit Authority, Utah Rail Passengers Association, and the City of Boise.

 

[rookzie]

I am interested in trying to compile a list of Corridor ID applications. Since there is no public "official" list I have created the attached spreadsheet showing ones that I have seen publicly reported.

Do you know of any others?

Thanks immensely for this tabular compilation, which complements the evolving proposal in graphic form.

My hope is that others on the forum will support you with modifications and adjustments accordingly, just as "Paniolo Man" has offered. It's quite surprising (and disappointing) that such a list in textual and outline format has not been published officially to accompany the map ─ at least, none that I am aware of otherwise.