Future Atlanta Service

[Bob Dylan]

Altanta Station

Why can't we just run the train(s) to the far side of belt way, and build a station with a maintance facility? Is Altanta too small to have two stations. The new "Western" will have large parking lot, with easy access to the belt way. Turning loop or wye, shed for maintance, and layover track(s).

Problem solved.

Excellent idea! Send in your check today, problem solved!

 

[afigg]

It's a nice idea but I just don't see it happening in the current climate. Among other things, NS won't be receptive to more blockage of their main line at MP 633 by additional passenger trains sitting in the station. Meanwhile Amtrak, the City of Atlanta, and GDOT appear to be absolutely incapable of getting a new station project underway.

Yes, the biggest single barrier to adding a second train to Atlanta is the need for a new station with layover tracks, and preferably one that is adjacent or near to a MARTA stop. I saw in recent news that MARTA is getting serious about expansion plans again with an extension of one of its heavy rail lines and a light rail line. So Atlanta will have an expanding rail transit system to connect to in the coming decade or two. Atlanta should have a true intermodal station with Amtrak and intercity/regional bus services that is adjacent or combined with a MARTA station. But, as far I can tell, any such plans are dead in the water for the Atlanta metro region at present.

A viable station in Altanta is not the only obstacle. Would NS consent to a second passenger train between CLT and ATL or would it want tens or hundreds of millions in track upgrades? Would CSX consent to another passenger train from RVR to RGH without funds for track upgrades? The upgrades being funded by HSIPR and VA (for NFK service) will add capacity between WAS and PTB, but between PTB and RGH, CSX may say no.

I don't think a WAS to ATL train proposal will get any traction at the state level in GA until NC and VA show a lot of success with expanded train service in their states and the SEHSR plans get serious funding for the RVM to RGH segment.

 

[afigg]

Atlanta should have a true intermodal station with Amtrak and intercity/regional bus services that is adjacent or combined with a MARTA station. But, as far I can tell, any such plans are dead in the water for the Atlanta metro region at present.

Interesting, the same day I wrote this, turns out I'm wrong. There are discussions going on the Atlanta metro region about a possible new station site further out in the suburbs, but a site that is adjacent to a MARTA station and close to the Atlanta beltway.

Atlanta Business Chronicle: Amtrak in talks for new station at GM plant site. The site is Doraville, at the northeastern end of MARTA Gold line. but at least, it would have direct connections to MARTA. At least, Amtrak, NS and the state officials are in discussion on a new station; where the funding is going to come from, that is the catch. Excerpts:

Amtrak has entered discussions with state transit officials and a major railroad to put a new station on the former site of the Doraville General Motors Co. plant.

MARTA and Norfolk Southern Corp. have held conversations with Amtrak this year about that possibility, people familiar with the talks said.

The discussions come two years after efforts fell through to relocate Atlanta’s historic Amtrak station at Brookwood on Peachtree Street.

The former GM site, at the convergence of Interstate 285, Buford Highway and Peachtree Industrial, is an intriguing option for a multi-modal project involving Amtrak because of its central location that could link the region’s suburbs to its urban core.

 

[me_little_me]

Is there a Georgia passenger train advocacy group?

jb

Yeah but both members are in nursing homes.

 

[jis]

Mauled by the Georgia government?

 

[WoodyinNYC]

Completion of SEHSR and VA ever actually meeting their goals for the WAS - RVR times changes the ball game considerably.

Aren't we getting something from the Stimulus funds being spent on the Piedmont route Raleigh-Charlotte? It's 20 minutes iirc, but I've seen someone say it's 30 minutes out of the timetable by the end of 2017.

Next would come the WAS-Richmond corridor improvements, another 30 minutes saved within 5 or 10 years.

Then in the doo-wah-diddy we'll get the SEHSR upgrades Richmond-Petersburg-Raleigh, taking another hour out at least.

Yeah, two hours faster would change the game considerably.

With this timeframe there'll be plenty of time to acquire more equipment for the new train. LOL.

 

[jis]

As I have said before theory is good. We'll see what actually happens. It is not unusual for theoretical goals not to be met. We are yet to achieve the original NECIP goals after several billion dollars

 

[neroden]

I don't know enough about NS's operations in detail to be able to say this for sure. (And I'd welcome such information.) But I believe that the Atlanta-Charlotte section of track is NOT one of the bottlenecks on NS's system right now. There's still the bottleneck in Charlotte where the CSX tracks cross the NS tracks, but from south of Charlotte to the northern suburbs of Atlanta, I think NS would not be an obstacle to a second train. The lack of an appropriate station in Atlanta is a much bigger obstacle. I hope the "GM Plant" site gets a station, with high platforms and enough space for cutting/adding cars and laying trains over.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

I don't remember seeing this thread back in July/August so I'm happy with the new sub forum.

Assuming SC and GA cooperate (big assumption), the easiest adjustment would be to extend a Piedmont in both directions to ATL for now. It won't get you to WAS or further north but a long all day train will always remind me of the Chicago extension of the Pennsylvanian. It's one thing to spend 18 hrs on a train when you can sleep 6 of them but lose an entire day traveling? Plus if you could sleep, no sleeper car accommodations.

I have proposed extending Train 73 down to ATL and begin Train 76 at ATL. Add 5.5 hrs in each direction between CLT and ATL and you get a southbound arrival on 73 before 4pm and a northbound departure before noon.

This might be able to help the capacity north of ATL vs. capacity south of ATL on the Crescent.

First, most of North Carolina would take the 73/76 to/from ATL instead of the Crescent so that frees up space on the Crescent so a fifth coach car may not be necessary.

Plus, maybe the extra cars from the Crescent can be used on the 73/76 instead of continuing to NOL.

After the southbound 19 gets into ATL (8:13am), take 1-2 coach cars off the Crescent and send them north to North Carolina on the 76 (before noon) while letting the rest go down south.

The northbound 20 will begin with either two or three coach cars. Once the southbound 73 gets to ATL (before 4pm), attach 1-2 coach cars onto the Crescent once it arrives in ATL (7:35pm) so there will be the necessary capacity for northbound to the NEC.

 

[neroden]

The core problem is still that Atlanta needs a new station. Badly.

I hope the Doraville station site gets funded, and built with sufficient platforms and sidings for the proposed expansions. That would unlock a whole lot of possibilities.

 

[Seaboard92]

The problem with Atlanta is the station. Now when they build a new station I hope they keep it in an area with good connections. Let's say the Floridian comes back it doesn't require a back up move via Atlanta. Or a savannah train. But we need a new station.

 

[jis]

Floridian never did run through Atlanta though and there are very significant issues which have nothing to do with the existence of a suitable Atlanta station or lack thereof in trying to run it via Atlanta which have been hashed out at length in the past in this forum.

 

[Seaboard92]

I know it never did. But I've always included it in a restarted Floridian coming down from Nashville.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

I know it never did. But I've always included it in a restarted Floridian coming down from Nashville.

What cities do you propose in your Floridian? Maybe we can re-establish service in several cities without service now.

 

[Seaboard92]

I know it never did. But I've always included it in a restarted Floridian coming down from Nashville.

What cities do you propose in your Floridian? Maybe we can re-establish service in several cities without service now.

My version of the Floridian runs Jacksonville-Atlanta-Chattanooga-Nashville

From Nashville north I have two possible routes.

-Nashville-Evansville-Danville-Chicago plus intermediate stops.

-Nashville-Lousiville-Indianapolis-Chicago via HS route. The track from Louisville to Indy would need major work if I remember right. But I think both would work.

I can see a midwest-Florida route being a popular route. Not to mention having Atlanta, Nashville, and Indy on a route you should have some major intermediate traffic. And that would be great. I'll start a separate discussion for this though.

 

[neroden]

My version of the Floridian runs Jacksonville-Atlanta-Chattanooga-Nashville

From Nashville north I have two possible routes.

-Nashville-Evansville-Danville-Chicago plus intermediate stops.

-Nashville-Lousiville-Indianapolis-Chicago via HS route. The track from Louisville to Indy would need major work if I remember right. But I think both would work.

Yeah, Louisville to Indy is a decrepit shortline right now. If the state governments were willing to support it (sigh) it could become a passenger-priority fast route.

 

[west point]

Comments about ATL - NEC service.

1. New station at Doraville is only solution for starting service. Station would need a balloon track for turning equipment quickly much like Richmond Broad street station had. Prefer balloon to be on north side of station so in future Chi - Florida direction trains could turn to retrace to NW - SE routes.

2. Atlanta - Charlotte route takes too long and needs upgrading all track to 80 - 90 MPH capability too many slow sections now ( PTC will be on route ) . Make the ~ 245 miles from new ATL station - new CLT station schedule 4 hours including the intermediate stops.

3. New CLT station - Greensboro should decrease to 90 minutes once double tracking complete.

4. CSX crossing NS in CLT appears to be a moot problem with CSX cutting CLT - Bostic to 4 total trains.

5. Atlanta - Raleigh - Richmond connects 3 state capitals.

6. Washington termination causes problems of rotating equipment so the continuation to NYP appears much better.

7. Late night train between WASH & NYP fills a time gap for traveling between those cities.

8. When Amtrak gets a surge fleet the new Atlanta station will allow for extra sections ATL - WASH that were very prevalent during medium to high traffic times by SOU RR even after Amtrak.started.

9. Of course this is all academic without capital funds for ROW & station upgrades and more rolling stock.

 

[neroden]

Here's hoping for the Doraville station ASAP.

Even if a downtown Atlanta station eventually gets approved and built, there will still be value to having a suburban station (the way Boston has Route 128).

So the Doraville station would be worth it, period.

 

[Anderson]

Depending on the frequencies you're looking at, turning one train somewhere in the mix at WAS isn't necessarily a bad idea (e.g. if the train terminates at WAS at 2300 and then heads back out at 0500, you'd be saving a set). There's plenty of stuff rotating at WAS as-is, and there's likely to be room for more stuff to rotate there later on if VA keeps extending Regionals.

This isn't to say that most trains shouldn't continue onto NYP (and/or SPG/BOS), but there could easily be a serious case for having at least one "deep south" train terminate at WAS...partiularly if there's a second train coming in a bit later on the "other" route (e.g. if you have an ATL-RVR-WAS train and a ROA-CVS-WAS train coming in at similar times later in the day, only one should continue on since there's probably not enough demand for two closely-scheduled late-night trains).

 

[jis]

I think a primery candidate for a Washington terminator would be a day train to Atlanta. It is almost impossible to do such a train all the way to New York without causing serious pain to convenient schedules at the other end of the run.

 

[Seaboard92]

I second Jis on his statement. Atlanta would be the best candidate for the turn at Washington. Based on my observations the line from ROA to LYH really isn't that long of an extension. I think it would really be an hour maybe less. I remember on 611 it didn't take that long when we ran that route. It was I think 90 minutes for us, but that is with us having a cap at 40 mph, which Amtrak wouldn't have. So I see it as maybe a 45 minute run, perfect to add to a Lynchburger. And then my other observation I spend a lot of time meeting Train No. 20 at Clemson, and talk to all of the passengers boarding most are going to points south of Washington. The last time I was there two for New York, two for CVS, one for GRO, and three for WAS. Usually there aren't WAS-NYP destinations. Mostly VA, and NC.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

I would think an extension of the Piedmont would be much easier and cheaper. I say baby steps, then work from there.

 

[Seaboard92]

Actually Philly there has been floated around a Piedmont extension schedule of 73 and 76 running via Columbia to Charleston SC from Charlotte. Schedule was posted in the Charlotte station for about two years. Then it disappeared. And the line is PTC now as well. If SC would get off their rear end I could see it happening.

 

[neroden]

If SC would get off their rear end I could see it happening.

And if pigs would fly...
I wish you luck with passenger rail advocacy in South Carolina. You'll need it. I honestly can't think of a state with less success at rail advocacy in my lifetime; it doesn't seem to be fertile ground for it. Even Alaska and Hawaii are doing better.

 

[Seaboard92]

Thank you Neroden. I'm pushing for the Palmetto corridor. But it would take a miracle. Actually the real Palmetto Corridor is GRV-CHS with overlapping Piedmont from CLT-CLB-CHS. Maybe one day in the future I'll make a post for it