Future Atlanta Service

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

I would think Atlanta to Florida service would have potential. Seaboard92's Floridian revival plans (http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/66184-revived-floridian/) include ATL to JAX along I presume the old Floridian route.

I was wondering if there was any way to connect ATL with Tampa possibly through western Florida (Tallahassee and/or Gainesville) and then serve Orlando and/or Miami as opposed to ATL to JAX? Considering both Tallahassee and Gainesville are big college towns and Amtrak has a proven track record with college towns, maybe this is worth a look.

 

[jphjaxfl]

I agree that South Carolina does not have elected officials that will support passenger trains. It's about the same as Georgia. The company I work for in Jacksonville is a subsidiary of a South Carolina based company. The philosophy is the Home Office is that passenger trains belong in historical museums and are not part of the 21 Century.

 

[jis]

I would think Atlanta to Florida service would have potential. Seaboard92's Floridian revival plans (http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/66184-revived-floridian/) include ATL to JAX along I presume the old Floridian route.

I was wondering if there was any way to connect ATL with Tampa possibly through western Florida (Tallahassee and/or Gainesville) and then serve Orlando and/or Miami as opposed to ATL to JAX? Considering both Tallahassee and Gainesville are big college towns and Amtrak has a proven track record with college towns, maybe this is worth a look.

First of all there are only two rail routes down to the Orlando/Tampa area from the north. One is the JAX - ORL route via SunRail which is used by Amtrak, and the other is JAX to Lakeland and Plant City via Ocala which has been abandoned by Amtrak quite a while back. To get onto this line from Atlanta, you have to get pretty near to JAX on the Tallahassee - JAX line anyway, so no reason to avoidn JAX at that point.

Besides the ship of using the Ocala route for passenger service might have sailed already. As part of the SunRail deal CSX moved all its freights (well almost all) to the Ocala - Gainsville route and will probably resist any proposal for returning passenger trains on that route mightily, or at least insist on laying an additional track or some such. In general getting a train through JAX and then down SunRail would be much easier than trying to arm wrestle with CSX on the Ocala route at this point.

 

[neroden]

I agree that South Carolina does not have elected officials that will support passenger trains. It's about the same as Georgia. The company I work for in Jacksonville is a subsidiary of a South Carolina based company. The philosophy is the Home Office is that passenger trains belong in historical museums and are not part of the 21 Century.

This country can be so backwards sometimes.... someone should get them to visit China, the sole economic superpower in the world right now, which disagrees. I kind of understood this attitude before China built *more high speed rail than the entire rest of the world combined*, but now anyone who's paying attention sees that HSR is part of the Economy Of The Future.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Totally agree about checking out China's model, but try to convince the yahoos that have taken over most state governments and the Congress, and are now supporting know nothings,charlatans and reality show hucksters for President!

Maybe they still are in Kansas Toto!

 

[Seaboard92]

Philly the route I proposed for the Floridian isn't the original route. But I am with you there could be a market. And what I see in the future are a bunch if intrastate corridors. With the LDs running along several of them. I think there would be some good ridership especially the NS route if you tap Atlanta, Macon, Jacksonville.

 

[west point]

ATL - Florida 1st does have much merit.

1. 1st ATL - Jacksonville. NS ATL - Macon over either the old SOU RR route or Central of Georgia route. Unfortunately the CG route had its signal system removed sometime in the past although it serves more of the population and goes close to Atlanta airport. That route might be able to be used by going thru the Fort Gilliam yard connection to the SOU route. From Macon can use the NS -SOU route to Jacksonville or change to CSX - ACL line at Cordele. SOU route would serve Valdosta and CSX would serve Waycross. Which is faster ? Unknown ?

2. From JAX take the Star's route serving Tampa then Miami. Would provide ATL - TPA which is now very popular on I-75 and more TPA - South Florida which has a very large following now on just the Star.

3. Way in the future an ideal route will be ATL - Columbus, Georgia ( Ft. Benning ) - Albany - Tallahassee - Tampa - MIA. Right now much of this route has abandoned ROW some ATL - CSG ( NS ) / CSG - Albany CSX - SAL, Non signaled Albany - Tallahassee/ portions Tallahassee - Tampa CSX - ACL ? SAL. /

 

[jis]

Tallahassee to Tampa CSX what remains is via Ocala from Baldwin near JAX. There are no southward links into Florida that goes all the way to Tampa/Orlando west of the SAL/CSX main line through Ocala. Forget about the ACL line west of it from Tallahassee to Tampa. has been gone for a long time. They are not there anymore. The issue then is if you are going to go that close to JAX, might as well serve JAX too.

Florida's long term rail plan even does not talk about that part too much. My guess is that connection with Atlanta if it even happens will be via JAX. Even if anything is ever built it will probably be along some highway ROW.

 

[west point]

JIS. What was referring to is the partially abandoned ACL - SAL Tallahassee - Tampa route. There was some speculation in the past that it was broken up so SOU later NS could not get a disjointed route ATL - TPA thru Tallahassee. Notice said way in future.

 

[Alex M.]

I will agree with the others that SC's view is that rail means freight, period. Ditto GA. I also recall that some time ago, FEC was interested in buying a 30% stake in the NS line from Jacksonville to Macon, or Atlanta from NS the way NS has 30% holding in the KCS line from Meridian to Shreveport. I don't know if this proposal has been shelved, but if it went ahead and AAF's Brightline service succeeds financially, could that service be an option for Atlanta? I know it's a wild dream, but why not dream?

 

[jis]

JIS. What was referring to is the partially abandoned ACL - SAL Tallahassee - Tampa route. There was some speculation in the past that it was broken up so SOU later NS could not get a disjointed route ATL - TPA thru Tallahassee. Notice said way in future.

Yeah, I know what you were talking about. That ROW is not in a preserved state. It has been encroached upon big time in many palces. Some of it is now used for roads too. I would be very surprised if it ever sees another train on it.

For reference see this FDOT 2006 Passenger Rail Vision Plan:

http://www.dot.state.fl.us/rail/Publications/Plans/06VisionPlan/ExecReportFinal.pdf

The reason they did not propose any Orlando/Tampa to Tallahassee direct route are a couple of factors:

1. There is no ROW available to use without much work reacquiring it.

2. Population density along that route does not justify spending the kind of money needed to build such a route. Internally they looked at it and found that there was no way to make the operating ratio come anywhere near one, or even 0.6 which seems to be a bogey that FDOT likes to use.

Notice that the route that AAF is building is part of the 2006 Vision Plan and in their reckoning it had an operating ratio over 1.0.

I will agree with the others that SC's view is that rail means freight, period. Ditto GA. I also recall that some time ago, FEC was interested in buying a 30% stake in the NS line from Jacksonville to Macon, or Atlanta from NS the way NS has 30% holding in the KCS line from Meridian to Shreveport. I don't know if this proposal has been shelved, but if it went ahead and AAF's Brightline service succeeds financially, could that service be an option for Atlanta? I know it's a wild dream, but why not dream?

With AAF it is all about real estate. If they can find real estate opportunities they will be happy to run a railroad attached to it. Remember, the whole shebang is now owned by the Fortress Group, directly or indirectly. BTW, when the term FEC is being used here, I am assuming the term meant to be used is FECR if it a railroad deal. OTOH if it is something more than that like AAF, the outfit involved would be FECI, of which AAF is a subsidiary. AAF has no direct relationship to FECR. It is via the Fortress Group which owns both FECR and FECI, which are two separate companies.

 

[Anderson]

The 2006 plan basically spat out what can best be described as "All Aboard Florida plus present Amtrak service". I suspect that after the bullet train plan got shot down a second time (and facing a favorable lending environment as well) they basically threw up their hands and said "Screw it, we'll build it ourselves".

A population density map of NE Florida suggests that there might be some room for service there; the problem is that the only through line up in that part of the state is the old S-line (which heads off to Jacksonville). It's pretty obvious on the basis of the existing lines that something used to exist there, but now? Not so much.

If the facts on the ground (existing tracks, etc.) supported adding/restoring service on an existing line, or indeed even seriously upgrading an existing line, that might work. However, as things stand there's no line to upgrade and so you'd be looking at hundreds of millions of dollars in construction at a bare minimum to make it work.

 

[afigg]

Came across a link to this Atlanta Journal Constitution article on the improving prospects for MARTA and transit expansion in the Atlanta metro region: Metro Atlanta transit talk gathers speed. Excerpt:

But it also seemed like everywhere you turned, someone was hammering home the importance of public transportation in general, and MARTA in particular.

During a panel on infrastructure with about 700 attendees, commercial real estate developer David Allman said, “The next big piece after HB 170 is the expansion of MARTA. The perception of us not expanding MARTA is a huge negative in our competitiveness.”

If MARTA can expand with heavy rail extensions, a new light rail line and maybe even the Atlanta region gets serious about starting commuter rail service, that has relevance in building support to eventually add new intercity passenger rail trains.

If Amtrak can build a new station at Doraville with a direct connection to MARTA. AAF/Brightline extends passenger service to Jacksonville, and the NC Piedmont route grows in ridership and is seen as successful, those in combination with a larger and expanded MARTA system, provide a better foundation than the current once a day Crescent for Georgia to look at funding trains to NC or WAS as the low hanging fruit and then with track upgrades, corridor service to JAX and Florida.