Future direct Chicago-Florida Route

[George Harris]

Referring to my statement, " Incidentally the direct Memphis-Louisville line is no more, either."

Yes, it was TT/TO when I rode over it on the Memphis Pan. Are you sure that portion hasn’t been upgraded for PTC. Large chemical plant at New Johnsonville (ex DuPont) plus traffic to/from Old Hickory would require PTC if routed via Memphis. The ex L&N Memphis branch stops at Cumberland City. Rode there a few times on current operator RJ Corman.

New Johnsonville DuPont plant is on the ex NC&StL line west out of Nashville. This line is (probably still?) CTC from Nashville to Bruceton TN. For reference to those in the other parts of the world, the Tennessee River bridge is just west of New Johnsonville and immediately north of the US 70 bridge. Rail traffic on the line is low enough that the standard position of the lift span is up unless a train is approaching. New Johnsonville is 80 miles west of Nashville and Bruceton is 95 miles west of Nashville. According the the CSX "Nashville Service Lane Maps what is left is the following: The former NC&StL Memphis line which went south out of Bruceton to go through Jackson TN is gone except for a few miles in the Jackson vicinity accessed by trackage rights out of Milan TN on the NS (ex ICRR). When the NC&StL was still independent this portion was also CTC. Now Memphis freight goes on the former NC Union City branch to McKenzie where it is connected to the former L&N direct line to Louisville. A look at Google maps shows the Louisville line gone north of the wye, even to the point that the ex NC diamond is gone but the NC line is in place as far as Dresden. As to the original L&N Louisville-Memphis line out of Bowling Green, the Tennessee River bridge was removed sometime around the early 70's and the line leading up to it from both ends either abandoned or sold off for the entire distance between Memphis Jct at Bowling Green and McKenzie TN. The remaining portion between McKenzie and Memphis is not signaled and never has been. There are only two long sidings in the entire 130 mile distance. Bruceton-McKenzie-Memphis.

 

[neroden]

Good luck getting the host railroads to agree to new routes, or increased frequencies on current routes, even if there is state government support.

They'll do what they're told. When the federal government and the state government jointly demand something, and pay the actual cost for it, the host railroads don't have a leg to stand on when opposing it, and although they occasionally bluster, they always fold.

The unfortunate truth is that it has been rare to have solid state and federal support for any routes. Even New York has suffered from tepid state government support. Tennessee has had reliable state government *opposition*.

North Coast Hiawatha is a possibility if North Dakota actively backed it and both ND and MT were willing to put some money in; Minnesota, Wisconsin, Illinois, and Washington would probably throw their backing behind it. But so far that is not the case: MT won't put up money and ND won't even formally push for it. And the political trends in both states have been going the wrong way.

 

[George Harris]

Tennessee has had reliable state government *opposition*.

Tennessee did kick in quite a bit to set up the commuter line Lebanon to Nashville on the ex Tennessee Central line east out of Nashville. In many ways, this was the low hanging fruit. The state owned the line and it was operated for freight as far east as Cookeville? Crossville?. beyond which it was abandoned in part and taken over by Southern in part. They did sufficient upgrades to the track to achieve 60 mph (faster than it had ever been) and add signals (which it had never had before) with a good tie job, a partial rail replacement to get rid of everything under 100 lb/yd, quite a bit of bridge work, and one line relocation. Everything they did was done with an eye to get reliable service at minimal cost. In general it has proven successful. Not wildly so, so that it would encourage development of service on other lines, but sufficient to keep it going.

There are other potential commuter lines out of Nashville, but all would be much more expensive to implement, even though a few have a potential for much higher ridership. (Nashville is the only Tennessee city with a lot of real central city destination commuters due to the state government giving it a large supply of office workers.)

The "low hanging fruit" so far as Amtrak and Tennessee is concerned would be to extend the Illinois train from Chicago to Carbondale down to Memphis. It should have decent ridership and not require any new facilities.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

The original Pioneer was introduced as an overnight Regional service between Salt Lake City and Seattle with only Coaches and Cafe.

With our current desire for every service to be gold plated we have also made it much harder to introduce any service. A bit more insistence on thicker plating and we will never introduce any new service, since there is no way left to test the waters with a relatively inexpensive trial introduction, something that was allowed by the original 403(b) program too, when states wanted to fund it. Afterall, that is how even the Lake Shore Limited came into existence.

To my knowledge the Three Rivers (1996-2005) never had a diner car. AU endlessly complains about food and dining. I'm sure there are people who avoided it like the plague and would rather take that other train that was 8 hours longer just because it had a diner. If AU could be happy with an overnight train without a diner, maybe we'd still have the Three Rivers and the Pioneer today. I'd take a Three Rivers without sleepers over having to change trains in DC or Pittsburgh. If you keep demanding all or nothing, most of the time you wind up with nothing.

 

[Seaboard92]

The thing to remember though is that Amtrak isn't beholden to the former Class One routings. Amtrak can mix and match to make a good train that hits a large population of any former class one. So there is no reason we can't merge part of the Southwind with parts of the Dixie Flagler, with bits of the Nancy Hanks, or an unnamed ACL local out of Atlanta. No reason at all we can't merge the strongest parts of these routes into one.

 

[basketmaker]

First Amtrak trip I ever took was the Floridian returning home from Nashville to Miami in '78. From what I remember it was still pretty much a hodgepodge of equipment and conditions. Exterior did sport the pointless arrow. Spent most of the time camped out in a dome watching the deep south roll by. Moved to Nashville the following year and a month later it was discontinued. Subsequent Amtrak travels required a 3 hour drive to Fulton, KY for the City. Luckily only 30 minutes to downtown Denver Union Station now. Though I prefer the 1 hour quick jaunt to Fort Morgan since there is free parking next to the platform.

 

[west point]

Spent some time trying to cobble best route CHI - Florida. The once every 3 days trains: Dixie Flagler, City of Miami, and South Wind each had some advantages and disadvantages. Now those routes all have some difficulties or are not possible. All left CHI at 0840 from different stations different RRs and routes. For reference all scheduled arrivals JAX 0830 24 hours later. Quite different from our pokey Amtrak Floridian.t, different RRs and routes. Note these are June 1941 schedules. For reference here is link to City of Miami.

City of Miami - June, 1941 - Streamliner Schedules

What is surprising is all 3 were almost all coach (mostly 4 coaches) with a Louisville- MIA sleeper. A sleeper or so just before Amtrak. My question became why that low demand for sleepers.

Then I looked at the Royal Palm. It started at Detroit leaving at 2330 to Cincinnati on NY Central. NYC provided sleepers from Detroit, Cleveland, Buffalo, CHI, IND. These were NYC sleepers from all those locations that were thru to Florida. All NY Central to Cincinnati trains arriving 0600 - 0730. Coaches were thru from Detroit with all other train's coach passengers changing at Cincinnati onto Detroit - MIA cars and SOU RR added coaches. Arrived ATL 1940 and JAX 0405. Close to making connection with expanded Palmetto.

Why the great DET - CIN passenger demand? Suspect many Canadians and Ohioans desiring to go to Florida. How does Amtrak get to this?

The Ohio DET - CIN route will need approval with necessary trackwork. Then of course NS to ATL and to be determined what RR to JAX. The Cardinal could become daily and provide necessary connections for CHI demand maybe cars to go to Florida. The great big problem is equipment. Single level or SLs, More sleepers and diners, lounges etc. Passenger potential may be great.

Some massages of Crescent and this proposal will make a nice connection in ATL. A Nashville ->? Chattanooga train without going to ATL separately. could also make connections with expansion to Louisville / Evansville. Finally the Kansas City Florida special could re start with connections to Crescent at BHM.

But Amtrak is going to need to start the new ATL station. Will any or all happen in my lifetime? Not likely.


http://www.streamlinerschedules.com/concourse/track2/newroyalpalm195103.html

 

[Willbridge]

I'm not an expert on north-south lines back East but read an interesting article in the NRHS periodical some years ago by a Black railfan about his travels as a youth between the Detroit area and Florida. The Great Migration split many families between northern and southern communities, and some in the Midwestern middle class were able to afford coach travel for family visits.

Family travel also generated coach traffic east<>west on the Northern lines between the Twin Cities and Pacific Northwest.

 

[JWM]

I took the South Wind from IND to WPB numerous times during the 1960's ending in 1967. I just voted the best route is Indianapolis-Atlanta. Track conditions from Chicago to Louisville are, in the main, not good. A close to perfect route would be the old NYC Chicago-Indianapolis and PRR Indianapolis-Louisville one. I am not holding out any hope, but even in the 1965 winter months the train ran with about fifteen cars including a leased North Coast Limited Dome Sleeping Car. Still remember it fondly.

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

Traffic in '41 would have been heavy on soldiers, no? I'm somewhat suspicious of there being much, if any, Canadian travel to Florida during the war. In '51 I could see it, but I think it's also that Detroit was a wealthy city at the time, along with what Willbridge mentioned - I've heard this from other southerners about the traveling habits of the Great Migration population.

The question I would ask for future rail service between the Midwest and Florida would be where are the biggest air markets between Florida and the Midwest and tap into those rather than past rail schedules.

 

[lrh442]

The FRA Long Distance Service Study includes analysis of the City of Miami and the Floridian. I doubt they'll make the cut for restoration but there is some interesting historical info.
https://fralongdistancerailstudy.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/Overview-Presentation.pdf

 

[MARC Rider]

Traffic in '41 would have been heavy on soldiers, no? I'm somewhat suspicious of there being much, if any, Canadian travel to Florida during the war. In '51 I could see it, but I think it's also that Detroit was a wealthy city at the time, along with what Willbridge mentioned - I've heard this from other southerners about the traveling habits of the Great Migration population.

The question I would ask for future rail service between the Midwest and Florida would be where are the biggest air markets between Florida and the Midwest and tap into those rather than past rail schedules.

No, traffic in 1941 would not have been heavily on soldiers, as the war didn't start until December. Now traffic in 1942 would have been a different issue, but I think for official transport of large number of soldiers they used special troop trains.

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

No, traffic in 1941 would not have been heavily on soldiers, as the war didn't start until December. Now traffic in 1942 would have been a different issue, but I think for official transport of large number of soldiers they used special troop trains.

Oh yeah, you're right (for my family, the war started in '39 with displacement to refugee status).

 

[Willbridge]

No, traffic in 1941 would not have been heavily on soldiers, as the war didn't start until December. Now traffic in 1942 would have been a different issue, but I think for official transport of large number of soldiers they used special troop trains.

The main American passenger traffic related to WWII in 1941 was a result of war industries cranking up and the promotion of visiting Canada and Latin America rather than Europe. However, troops were already on the move for training and dispositions when the war began. The 1941 Guide reprint has full page ads that identified bases served by some lines. (Off-thread: the Germans didn't believe these ads.)

 

[NES28]

The Friday, July 28 edition of the Rail Passenger Association's Hotline online newsletter included this link https://fralongdistancerailstudy.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/Overview_Presentation_2.pdf to the overview prentation shown in the second round of meetings of FRA's Long Distance Study. The Chicago-Florida route was called out for special attention with a map shown on 3 slides (#108, 109, 110). All show the route as Chicago-Indianapolis-Louisville-Nashville-Chattanooga-Atlanta-Macon-Jacksonville-Daytona-Orlando-Miami (same as FRA SE Regional study).

 

[danasgoodstuff]

The Friday, July 28 edition of the Rail Passenger Association's Hotline online newsletter included this link https://fralongdistancerailstudy.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/Overview_Presentation_2.pdf to the overview prentation shown in the second round of meetings of FRA's Long Distance Study. The Chicago-Florida route was called out for special attention with a map shown on 3 slides (#108, 109, 110). All show the route as Chicago-Indianapolis-Louisville-Nashville-Chattanooga-Atlanta-Macon-Jacksonville-Daytona-Orlando-Miami (same as FRA SE Regional study).

That's certainly ambitious.

 

[railpost]

Thanks for calling it to the groups attention. The route from Chicago to Florida should have never been discontinued and short of that it should have been restored a long time ago. Direct service from Chicago or the Midwest to Florida is desperately needed and no one can deny that there is and always was a tremendous market between those 2 points.

 

[ascii42]

The Friday, July 28 edition of the Rail Passenger Association's Hotline online newsletter included this link https://fralongdistancerailstudy.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/Overview_Presentation_2.pdf to the overview prentation shown in the second round of meetings of FRA's Long Distance Study. The Chicago-Florida route was called out for special attention with a map shown on 3 slides (#108, 109, 110). All show the route as Chicago-Indianapolis-Louisville-Nashville-Chattanooga-Atlanta-Macon-Jacksonville-Daytona-Orlando-Miami (same as FRA SE Regional study).

Looks like they are considering three different options for Atlanta - Jacksonville:
Atlanta-Augusta-Savannah-Jacksonville
Atlanta-Macon-Savannah-Jacksonville
Atlanta-Macon-Jesup-Jacksonville

With the last one being used for the example route on page 110.

 

[west point]

The Friday, July 28 edition of the Rail Passenger Association's Hotline online newsletter included this link https://fralongdistancerailstudy.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/Overview_Presentation_2.pdf to the overview prentation shown in the second round of meetings of FRA's Long Distance Study. The Chicago-Florida route was called out for special attention with a map shown on 3 slides (#108, 109, 110). All show the route as Chicago-Indianapolis-Louisville-Nashville-Chattanooga-Atlanta-Macon-Jacksonville-Daytona-Orlando-Miami (same as FRA SE Regional study).

I have changed my mind and now believe this roue will be better for capturing shorter distance passengers. Not only CHI but also Detroit, Toledo, Cleveland train(s) to IND. Research shows that the Royal Palm Cincinnati <> Chattanooga SOU RR route was mainly a sleeping car route with lower number of coaches than sleeping cars. Maybe in 20+ years Amtrak might have enough private room sleepers which would make Royal Palm route revenue positive. Plus, for those fewer longer distance coach passengers. Suspect IND <>CIN <> CHA would be 4 - 5 hours quicker.

These 2 routes are very dependent for the OHIO rail routes to be rebuilt to much higher speeds.

 

[dlagrua]

I have read that there is a higher number of "snowbirds" in the mid-west than there is in the North East. Point is that there should be a good market but it may be for a thru route. My guess is that a new Floridian route would best serve the Amtrak Chicago to Florida passenger needs. Looking into restoring the Louisville-Miami Autotrain might also be a good idea.

 

[jis]

I have read that there is a higher number of "snowbirds" in the mid-west than there is in the North East. Point is that there should be a good market but it may be for a thru route. My guess is that a new Floridian route would best serve the Amtrak Chicago to Florida passenger needs. Looking into restoring the Louisville-Miami Autotrain might also be a good idea.

You cannot restore something that never existed. There was no Louisville - Miami AutoTrain, ever. There was Louisville - Sanford, and an aborted effort by Amtrak for a Midwest - Poinciana one. The current SunRail Poinciana station is roughly located where Amtrak was trying to set up shop.

 

[west point]

The probable origins and destinations of passengers has to be considered, As well, accommodations. The 3 CHI - MIA trains were always heavy on coach cars and very few sleepers. We can probably that most passengers will go from north whatever to south village. So, CHI - IND, Louisville, Nashville, CHA - ATL - Florida hits many catchment stations for shorter distance coach passengers. A near midnight departure catches all connections from the western trains.

That would put it in ATL that can get Florida passengers from the Crescent. But ATL station has to be solved. Gets Florida at JAX sometime after midnight with arrival Orlando south about dawn and later. In 20 - 30- years if Amtrak has enough sleepers the Cincinnati - ATL route will be food for another Florida train.

 

[JRR]

I have read that there is a higher number of "snowbirds" in the mid-west than there is in the North East. Point is that there should be a good market but it may be for a thru route. My guess is that a new Floridian route would best serve the Amtrak Chicago to Florida passenger needs. Looking into restoring the Louisville-Miami Autotrain might also be a good idea.

A Chicago to Miami route would be awesome. It would need to go through Atlanta which is very much needed!

 

[dlagrua]

You cannot restore something that never existed. There was no Louisville - Miami AutoTrain, ever. There was Louisville - Sanford, and an aborted effort by Amtrak for a Midwest - Poinciana one. The current SunRail Poinciana station is roughly located where Amtrak was trying to set up shop.

Jis you are correct the Midwest autotrain did start at Lousivile and end at Sanford FL but I believe the Floridian that had the Autotrain consist went on to Miami after dropping off the cars at Sanford. . Thank you for the clarification.

 

[tgstubbs1]

I have read that there is a higher number of "snowbirds" in the mid-west than there is in the North East. Point is that there should be a good market but it may be for a thru route. My guess is that a new Floridian route would best serve the Amtrak Chicago to Florida passenger needs. Looking into restoring the Louisville-Miami Autotrain might also be a good idea.

This map in the Long Distance study pdf shows the travel flows and I think it supports a CHI to FLA route.

Looking at this map, three cities without any AMTRAK stand out:
Las Vegas, Nashville, and Phoenix.

Some city pair routes that look very promising: Dallas- Houston, Las Vegas- LA, Phoenix - Flagstaff (also link Phoenix to the Sunset Limited).