"Go back to your seats, or lose them"...

[Mystic River Dragon]

To add a lighter note to this thread, I have an anecdote about taking a crowded Northeast Regional in coach many years ago. I went to the café car, but left a magazine on my seat so people would know someone was sitting there. When I came back, someone was sitting in my seat reading the magazine. I very politely explained I was sitting there, and they apologized and moved.

Later, I went to use the facilities and left the magazine on my chair. When I came back, there was a lady sitting there reading my magazine, and she didn't seem to understand that I was sitting there. The conductor (a good one, thank goodness) came along, saw what was going on, and helped her find another seat.

I should have learned my lesson by that time, but I got up again (can't even remember what for this time). When I came back, there was an Amtrak employee sitting in my seat reading the magazine. He saw me and jumped up and scooted away like a scared rabbit!

 

[Maglev]

To add a lighter note to this thread, I have an anecdote about taking a crowded Northeast Regional in coach many years ago. I went to the café car, but left a magazine on my seat so people would know someone was sitting there. When I came back, someone was sitting in my seat reading the magazine. I very politely explained I was sitting there, and they apologized and moved.

Later, I went to use the facilities and left the magazine on my chair. When I came back, there was a lady sitting there reading my magazine, and she didn't seem to understand that I was sitting there. The conductor (a good one, thank goodness) came along, saw what was going on, and helped her find another seat.

I should have learned my lesson by that time, but I got up again (can't even remember what for this time). When I came back, there was an Amtrak employee sitting in my seat reading the magazine. He saw me and jumped up and scooted away like a scared rabbit!

It must have been a good magazine!

 

[Mystic River Dragon]

I can't remember, except I read boring stuff compared to most people, so I was surprised that people were reading it!

 

[caravanman]

I am delighted to hear the facts behind the incident. My understanding of a reserved train ticket was wrong. So if a long distance train is "oversold", a ticketed passenger could be told to spend two nights sitting up at a table in the lounge?

I am surprised by this, as nowhere on the Amtrak website is this aspect of Amtrak's train service mentioned?

Ed.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

I am delighted to hear the facts behind the incident. My understanding of a reserved train ticket was wrong. So if a long distance train is "oversold", a ticketed passenger could be told to spend two nights sitting up at a table in the lounge?

I am surprised by this, as nowhere on the Amtrak website is this aspect of Amtrak's train service mentioned?

Ed.

More than likely those in the lounge car would be given seats in the coach cars as they become available as others detrain down the line.

 

[user 6862]

Mystic River Dragon

like Maglev said, it must have been some read...

 

[jis]

I am delighted to hear the facts behind the incident. My understanding of a reserved train ticket was wrong. So if a long distance train is "oversold", a ticketed passenger could be told to spend two nights sitting up at a table in the lounge?

I am surprised by this, as nowhere on the Amtrak website is this aspect of Amtrak's train service mentioned?

Ed.

More than likely those in the lounge car would be given seats in the coach cars as they become available as others detrain down the line.

Yup! If Amtrak manages to oversell a train for its entire two day run, that in itself would be a miracle. Contrary to what many appear to believe here there is a huge turnover of passengers over its two day run. So there usually is an opening within a few hours to move everyone from non-rev seats into rev seats.
When airlines oversell they bump you off the flight. Amtrak merely bumps you off into the lounge until a seat opens up. When that happens they may request that those that already have seats please go back to their seats so that the overflow can be accommodated in the lounge for a little while.

As mentioned by Hal, this happens only for Coach passengers. Upper classes are not oversold.

 

[the_traveler]

Maybe the magazine was Trains or Railfan!

 

[ehbowen]

I am delighted to hear the facts behind the incident. My understanding of a reserved train ticket was wrong. So if a long distance train is "oversold", a ticketed passenger could be told to spend two nights sitting up at a table in the lounge?

I am surprised by this, as nowhere on the Amtrak website is this aspect of Amtrak's train service mentioned?

You'll be hard pressed to find anything direct about overbooking on an airline's web site up front either, although I'm sure you'll find it if you dig into the fine print. Overbooking is a practice of long standing in the United States, mainly because it used to be that all unused tickets were fully refundable and "no shows" were extremely common. It used to be common practice in the 1950s for an executive's secretary to call and book a reservation from Chicago to, say, Denver BOTH on the train and on the airlines. If the weather was bad the traveler would go to the train station; if it was good he would head to the airport; and in either case the unfortunate carrier would be lucky to get a phone call even 30 minutes in advance saying, "By the way, I'm not taking your train/plane after all." In most cases the unused ticket would simply show up the next day with a request for a cash refund. Sometimes travelers would make reservations on 3 or 4 flights and not decide which one to actually take until show time.

As far as a train being oversold "all the way", it can happen. Happened to me on my first Amtrak trip during the United Airlines strike in 1979. I boarded at the originating terminal and had a seat all the way, but it didn't take long for the train to fill up completely and then some. To make matters worse, the air conditioning in many of the old Heritage cars kept going out throughout the trip. (Many of the former Santa Fe single level cars used steam-jet air conditioning, which requires full water tanks as a refrigerant. I strongly suspect that the Amtrak service crew neglected to fill the tanks. Fortunately, I was in a Hi-Level coach with mechanical air conditioning which worked flawlessly throughout the trip. No wonder many of the other passengers wanted my seat!) I wouldn't be surprised to find that a lot of first-time Amtrak passengers said, "Never again!" after that trip.

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

On the other occasion, I was on a Metra Electric commuter train when we hit a trespasser on the tracks around 35th Street where the trains are going at a good clip since there are no intermediate stations. This was a really hard stop and we sat there for a few minutes when the emergency crews arrived. The conductor went through the train explaining the situation. We sat for several hours while the emergency crews did their work and the train crew had to be replaced in order to be drug tested. Again, anybody who wanted to know anything found out. There was no mass hysteria. Everybody was pretty quiet. We were all affected by this and wondered why a young woman had chosen to end her life this way, but life went on. A crew from the nearby 18th street shops took the train to University Park.

How long ago was this? That stretch always seems to have weird things going on (and funny a post about 35th St was post #35...).

 

[MikefromCrete]

On the other occasion, I was on a Metra Electric commuter train when we hit a trespasser on the tracks around 35th Street where the trains are going at a good clip since there are no intermediate stations. This was a really hard stop and we sat there for a few minutes when the emergency crews arrived. The conductor went through the train explaining the situation. We sat for several hours while the emergency crews did their work and the train crew had to be replaced in order to be drug tested. Again, anybody who wanted to know anything found out. There was no mass hysteria. Everybody was pretty quiet. We were all affected by this and wondered why a young woman had chosen to end her life this way, but life went on. A crew from the nearby 18th street shops took the train to University Park.

How long ago was this? That stretch always seems to have weird things going on (and funny a post about 35th St was post #35...).

Two or three years ago.

 

[caravanman]

I was being a little disingenuous about having to sit in the lounge car for two nights, and do realize that folk would move to seats when they became free, but I am honestly surprised to learn about the "overselling" of reserved trains. I guess I started my Amtrak ridership about 15 years ago, when the trains were fairly empty, and one almost always got a double seat to oneself overnight. Gosh, it is true that some old folk always go on about life in the past being better!

Ed.

 

[zephyr17]

I have seen it happen fairly often. One thing that stands out is one time on the Empire Builder we had a bunch of people get on in Wisconsin Dells that were seated temporarily in the lounge car. They were all accommodated in assigned seats by the time we left Winona.

 

[railiner]

Well...I'm going to beat that dead horse again.....I believe that they should never overbook trains (or planes), and that they should adhere to the policy of theater's or sports venues---no show, no refund or credit. Period.

That would solve that problem.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Well...I'm going to beat that dead horse again.....I believe that they should never overbook trains (or planes), and that they should adhere to the policy of theater's or sports venues---no show, no refund or credit. Period. That would solve that problem.

So if I arrive late due to some sloppy teenager or fatigued truck driver causing an accident on the freeway I've now lost every cent of my thousand dollar flight or bedroom ticket through no fault of my own? I've traveled on hundreds of flights and passenger trains. I know how things are supposed to work, and most of the time everything goes relatively smoothly, but sometimes circumstances beyond my control prevent that. In this case your cure is worse than the disease.

 

[Lonestar648]

If your ticket is not refundable and non changeable once you buy your ticket, it would certainly make people reconsider their travel. The ones who will win will be the travel insurance companies. I have travel so much over the years that you know things will happen. That is why the road warriors find all the status they can so when that unavoidable occurs, you have numbers to call to help make things right. Customers don't understand being late and upper management in your company has zero tolerance even though all have the same issues. Over booking, Amtrak needs better processes to handle these more and more frequent events, like the time 46 boys and adults showed up to the Conductors surprise in Pittsburgh going to Raton. Someone in Amtrak had handled the Group reservation wrong the Conductor said, in any event, he was 30 Coach seats short going to a Chicago. Back then they would close the SSL during the overnight hours when the Cafe was closed. In the end the entire contingent sat up all night in the SSL which did not please the adults, but the boys didn't mind. Even when there isn't supposed to be any oversold, there still can be. I don't agree with the theater ticket policy for airline and train travel. I know cruise ships do it, but they get a percentage of the travel insurance sold.

 

[chakk]

Hi, we are from the *****, are you hiding anyone from us we would like to send to a concentration camp? Yes there certainly are lies that are justified.

Sola scriptura just doesn't always cut it.

Darn! So close to invoking Godwin's Law, but just not quite there (yet).

 

[SarahZ]

Hi, we are from the *****, are you hiding anyone from us we would like to send to a concentration camp? Yes there certainly are lies that are justified.

Sola scriptura just doesn't always cut it.

Darn! So close to invoking Godwin's Law, but just not quite there (yet).

Godwin's Lite

 

[railiner]

Well...I'm going to beat that dead horse again.....I believe that they should never overbook trains (or planes), and that they should adhere to the policy of theater's or sports venues---no show, no refund or credit. Period. That would solve that problem.

So if I arrive late due to some sloppy teenager or fatigued truck driver causing an accident on the freeway I've now lost every cent of my thousand dollar flight or bedroom ticket through no fault of my own? I've traveled on hundreds of flights and passenger trains. I know how things are supposed to work, and most of the time everything goes relatively smoothly, but sometimes circumstances beyond my control prevent that. In this case your cure is worse than the disease.

So Amtrak should suffer the loss of the revenue, "through no fault of its own"?

The solution, as Lonestar648 pointed out, is travel insurance.

I would modify my position somewhat, perhaps, if lets say Amtrak manages to sell the no show space at some point, and in such a case, return a portion to the original purchaser. Not sure how complicated that would entail....

 

[Green Maned Lion]

So what you do is, you leave enough time getting to the station, and enough time connecting, that you are reasonably certain that with a 99% of likely delays covered, you make your connection. And sometimes, life just sucks.

Or you could attempt what my father once did on a very delayed Amtrak train to a cruise out of Lauderdale- he missed the boat, and did a one way rental to Key West and caught it the next day. If you miss the train by a small amount of time in much of the country, you can likely catch up with it a stop or two down the line, and I would imagine if you called Amtrak they would be amenable to holding your space.

 

[Skyline]

Well...I'm going to beat that dead horse again.....I believe that they should never overbook trains (or planes), and that they should adhere to the policy of theater's or sports venues---no show, no refund or credit. Period. That would solve that problem.

So if I arrive late due to some sloppy teenager or fatigued truck driver causing an accident on the freeway I've now lost every cent of my thousand dollar flight or bedroom ticket through no fault of my own? I've traveled on hundreds of flights and passenger trains. I know how things are supposed to work, and most of the time everything goes relatively smoothly, but sometimes circumstances beyond my control prevent that. In this case your cure is worse than the disease.

So Amtrak should suffer the loss of the revenue, "through no fault of its own"?

The solution, as Lonestar648 pointed out, is travel insurance.

I would modify my position somewhat, perhaps, if lets say Amtrak manages to sell the no show space at some point, and in such a case, return a portion to the original purchaser. Not sure how complicated that would entail....

Reminds me of an employer I am acquainted with--a radio station. There is a no tolerance policy for tardiness by on-air or studio support personnel, because lateness equals dead air and dead air equals no listeners. They are never late by virtue of leaving home WAY ahead of time--especially in bad weather. True, sometimes they get to the station WAY ahead of time (and can mull around town within a few blocks until they are due at work) but they are NEVER late. There are instances during the winter when said staff will hole up near the station overnight rather than risk being late for an AM shift.

Transportation companies could and should establish / invoke no-refund policies for tardiness and no-shows unless it is they who cause the lateness because of a missed connection they or their partners contributed to. If travel insurance lessens the blow for those who are late for reasons other than that, so be it...buy it.

 

[jis]

Conversely when they cause a delay beyond a threshold they should refund the fare, and beyond a reasonable point pay a penalty too. Europeans tend to enforce such policies much better than the hands off US govt.

 

[Woodcut60]

Rotating people in the Lounge Car is a good idea. Some people think they have a right to live there and make it their home.

 

[A Voice]

Well...I'm going to beat that dead horse again.....I believe that they should never overbook trains (or planes), and that they should adhere to the policy of theater's or sports venues---no show, no refund or credit. Period. That would solve that problem.

So if I arrive late due to some sloppy teenager or fatigued truck driver causing an accident on the freeway I've now lost every cent of my thousand dollar flight or bedroom ticket through no fault of my own? I've traveled on hundreds of flights and passenger trains. I know how things are supposed to work, and most of the time everything goes relatively smoothly, but sometimes circumstances beyond my control prevent that. In this case your cure is worse than the disease.

So Amtrak should suffer the loss of the revenue, "through no fault of its own"?

The solution, as Lonestar648 pointed out, is travel insurance.

I would modify my position somewhat, perhaps, if lets say Amtrak manages to sell the no show space at some point, and in such a case, return a portion to the original purchaser. Not sure how complicated that would entail....

Reminds me of an employer I am acquainted with--a radio station. There is a no tolerance policy for tardiness by on-air or studio support personnel, because lateness equals dead air and dead air equals no listeners. They are never late by virtue of leaving home WAY ahead of time--especially in bad weather. True, sometimes they get to the station WAY ahead of time (and can mull around town within a few blocks until they are due at work) but they are NEVER late. There are instances during the winter when said staff will hole up near the station overnight rather than risk being late for an AM shift.

Transportation companies could and should establish / invoke no-refund policies for tardiness and no-shows unless it is they who cause the lateness because of a missed connection they or their partners contributed to. If travel insurance lessens the blow for those who are late for reasons other than that, so be it...buy it.

Amtrak faces severe enough challenges as it is; Running off prospective passengers with a draconian no-refund and/or cancellation policy is inherently counterproductive and would produce unintended consequences (passengers waiting until the very last minute to buy tickets) which, in theory, could itself produce overcrowded conditions. While it should be obvious, punctual arrival at a place of employment and a mode of transportation are not the same thing and identical standards cannot be arbitrarily applied to both.

Conversely when they cause a delay beyond a threshold they should refund the fare, and beyond a reasonable point pay a penalty too. Europeans tend to enforce such policies much better than the hands off US govt.

While I fully agree with your point, U.S. tendencies toward a laissez faire approach have historically done far more good than harm (granted, there are many exceptions).

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Rotating people in the Lounge Car is a good idea. Some people think they have a right to live there and make it their home.

That's is because they do have a right to sit there for as long as they want. If I pay $500 for a ticket on Amtrak (typical of a Roomette charge on the zephyr) I expect to be able to enjoy the SSL when i desire without being looked down upon by fellow riders, or attempted to be policed by over-the-top employees.
If you ever see me in the lounge... Rather than judging me... Maybe say "hello... I notice you've been in the lounge quite a bit... Seen any wildlife today? Or historic railway buildings / equipment?" -the following conversation will serve us both much better than your judgemental stares / comments.