"Go back to your seats, or lose them"...

[Devil's Advocate]

So Amtrak should suffer the loss of the revenue, "through no fault of its own"?

In the situation I described $1,000 represents my actual financial loss. Actual losses for common carriers would generally be limited to the cost of a phone clerk to modify my ticket and put me on the next train with an available seat. Which is probably somewhere around $15-$20. If no-shows were becoming a major problem a common carrier could add another $25-$50 in punitive fees to dissuade people from casually missing their trains while still honoring the spirit of the flat tire rule. In most cases under this scenario I'll still depart on the next train out and the carrier will lose zero money.

The solution, as Lonestar648 pointed out, is travel insurance.

Consumer level travel insurance policies generally cover things like being involved in the accident itself. They do not normally cover things like being delayed by an unrelated accident or break down.

I would modify my position somewhat, perhaps, if lets say Amtrak manages to sell the no show space at some point, and in such a case, return a portion to the original purchaser. Not sure how complicated that would entail....

Amtrak needs new passengers a lot more than new passengers need Amtrak. If Amtrak gets too heavy handed with their rules and penalties they risk suffering financial setbacks as Baby Boomers with pensions and disability checks and social security begin to die off en mass. Younger people on ever tighter post-Boomer budgets will end up looking for other options such as faster flights, easier car rentals, and cheaper staycations.

Reminds me of an employer I am acquainted with--a radio station. There is a no tolerance policy for tardiness by on-air or studio support personnel, because lateness equals dead air and dead air equals no listeners. They are never late by virtue of leaving home WAY ahead of time--especially in bad weather. True, sometimes they get to the station WAY ahead of time (and can mull around town within a few blocks until they are due at work) but they are NEVER late. There are instances during the winter when said staff will hole up near the station overnight rather than risk being late for an AM shift. Transportation companies could and should establish / invoke no-refund policies for tardiness and no-shows unless it is they who cause the lateness because of a missed connection they or their partners contributed to. If travel insurance lessens the blow for those who are late for reasons other than that, so be it...buy it.

Except that a common carrier isn't paying me a salary to be at a specific place at a specific time. I'm the person paying them. If the person who pays everyone else shows up late to your radio station does he pay an out of pocket penalty to the station staff? Your example is both irrational and irrelevant. Not to mention that where I live radio stations are generally nothing more than automated playlists with occasional bits of prerecorded banter.

 

[Alexandria Nick]

Rotating people in the Lounge Car is a good idea. Some people think they have a right to live there and make it their home.

That's is because they do have a right to sit there for as long as they want. If I pay $500 for a ticket on Amtrak (typical of a Roomette charge on the zephyr) I expect to be able to enjoy the SSL when i desire without being looked down upon by fellow riders, or attempted to be policed by over-the-top employees.
If you ever see me in the lounge... Rather than judging me... Maybe say "hello... I notice you've been in the lounge quite a bit... Seen any wildlife today? Or historic railway buildings / equipment?" -the following conversation will serve us both much better than your judgemental stares / comments.

And the other guy that paid $500? What about his expectations?

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Hopefully he will sit next to me and we can enjoy the lounge together!

In peak travel seasons I've seen the SSL fill to capacity for about an hour or 2 in the Rockies on the Zephyr or the trip through Glacier on the Builder. Other than that, I've never seen all seats filled.

 

[caravanman]

Rotating people in the Lounge Car is a good idea. Some people think they have a right to live there and make it their home.

That's is because they do have a right to sit there for as long as they want. If I pay $500 for a ticket on Amtrak (typical of a Roomette charge on the zephyr) I expect to be able to enjoy the SSL when i desire without being looked down upon by fellow riders, or attempted to be policed by over-the-top employees.
If you ever see me in the lounge... Rather than judging me... Maybe say "hello... I notice you've been in the lounge quite a bit... Seen any wildlife today? Or historic railway buildings / equipment?" -the following conversation will serve us both much better than your judgemental stares / comments.

I guess the more interesting aspect is how you would feel if you were the person looking for a seat, and they are all taken already, by folk who want to sit there all day...?

I would say "hello, notice you've been in the lounge quite a bit... pardon my shouting while standing up all the time, seen any reason yet to share the seats...?"

Ed.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

I would go back to my room... Enjoy the view from there... And come back in 30-60 minutes when a seat is most likely available.

 

[railiner]

So Amtrak should suffer the loss of the revenue, "through no fault of its own"?

In the situation I described $1,000 represents my actual financial loss. Actual losses for common carriers would generally be limited to the cost of a phone clerk to modify my ticket and put me on the next train with an available seat. Which is probably somewhere around $15-$20. If no-shows were becoming a major problem a common carrier could add another $25-$50 in punitive fees to dissuade people from casually missing their trains while still honoring the spirit of the flat tire rule. In most cases under this scenario I'll still depart on the next train out and the carrier will lose zero money.

The solution, as Lonestar648 pointed out, is travel insurance.

Consumer level travel insurance policies generally cover things like being involved in the accident itself. They do not normally cover things like being delayed by an unrelated accident or break down.

I would modify my position somewhat, perhaps, if lets say Amtrak manages to sell the no show space at some point, and in such a case, return a portion to the original purchaser. Not sure how complicated that would entail....

Amtrak needs new passengers a lot more than new passengers need Amtrak. If Amtrak gets too heavy handed with their rules and penalties they risk suffering financial setbacks as Baby Boomers with pensions and disability checks and social security begin to die off en mass. Younger people on ever tighter post-Boomer budgets will end up looking for other options such as faster flights, easier car rentals, and cheaper staycations.

It is more than the administrative cost of rebooking a no-show....what about the lost revenue, of a bedroom going unsold? Such space is "perishable", in the sense that once it .unoccupied for a trip, it can never be sold (for that trip), again. Unless, as I said, they can sell it at the last minute

I purchase travel insurance all the time for my cruises. And they cover cancellation for any reason, as well as missing the trip, or a host of other bad things that can delay or hamper the trip. True, I don't get all of my money back, they have to set a fair deductible, or else people would cancel at the last minute for no good reason.

Theaters have had that policy for as long as I known, and I never heard anyone say it was "heavy-handed. And I doubt that policy would defer many people from booking a train trip, if taking a train was what they wanted....

 

[Skyline]

Except that a common carrier isn't paying me a salary to be at a specific place at a specific time. I'm the person paying them. If the person who pays everyone else shows up late to your radio station does he pay an out of pocket penalty to the station staff? Your example is both irrational and irrelevant. Not to mention that where I live radio stations are generally nothing more than automated playlists with occasional bits of prerecorded banter.

I understand the difference. The point was made that pax should leave home early enough that traffic, weather, etc. wouldn't make them miss the train.

 

[the_traveler]

I live about 20 minutes from the train station. The train departs @ 9:16 am & I'm taking a city bus @ 7 am to get there. Is that enough time? :huh:

How about if the bus breaks down, or there's a major accident on the route that closes the road and causes a backup of 3 hours? Should I lose my ticket AND my money because I didn't leave earlier? :huh: (Oh, the 1st bus on my route is @7 am. Or should I take the bus the afternoon before & sleep on the platform of the unstaffed station overnight?)

 

[Bob Dylan]

I have no problem with passengers who use the Lounge to Sightsee,eat/drink or play games.

My experience is that on lots of LD Trains people Camp out all day and don't ever look up from their devices,books or even sleep.

Other pet peeves are peoole that "save" seats for others while they eat,go to their room/seat to rest,shower etc.

My last trip on the Starlight a group did this in the PPC,they took ALL of the Reservations for the meals there as well as "saving" the Swivel Chairs All day till it got dark on the way to San Jose.

Most of the time no-one was even in the chairs, they had sweaters,jackets etc in them and the official watchperson for the group would lie to your face by saying " They'll be right back, they're just _______!" Of course the person wouldn't come back or else someone would show up an hour or two later later and plop down in the chair and usually not even look out the window!One couple even discussed their sexual encounter while their pals saved their seats!

I'm not a rude person, but this is BS, and the attendants and Conductors need to consistently remind people about sharing the seats like Good OBS do on some routes!

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I just tell them I'll happily get up when their friend gets back. In poker, it's called "calling the bluff".

 

[A Voice]

Most of the time no-one was even in the chairs, they had sweaters,jackets etc in them and the official watchperson for the group would lie to your face by saying " They'll be right back, they're just _______!" Of course the person wouldn't come back or else someone would show up an hour or two later later and plop down in the chair and usually not even look out the window!One couple even discussed their sexual encounter while their pals saved their seats!

I'm not a rude person, but this is BS, and the attendants and Conductors need to consistently remind people about sharing the seats like Good OBS do on some routes!

If common courtesy and honesty (at the risk of beating a dead horse from another thread.....) were practiced, most of the issues with seats in the Sightseer Lounge would simply go away. But since both traits seem to be out of style anymore, it creates problems and a perceived need for a policy (and suspicions of crew motives) where none should really be necessary.

In a worst case the "problem" could always be solved by charging for the lounge seats. Nobody wants that.

I live about 20 minutes from the train station. The train departs @ 9:16 am & I'm taking a city bus @ 7 am to get there. Is that enough time? :huh:

How about if the bus breaks down, or there's a major accident on the route that closes the road and causes a backup of 3 hours? Should I lose my ticket AND my money because I didn't leave earlier? :huh: (Oh, the 1st bus on my route is @7 am. Or should I take the bus the afternoon before & sleep on the platform of the unstaffed station overnight?)

Whose fault is it when you can't sleep laying on the platform all night, but finally doze off a few minutes before train time and miss it?

Sometimes things happen in life beyond our control, which is why refund and cancellation policies exist as they do. An overly strict "zero tolerance" policy wouldn't actually stop people from being late, it just imposes a much stiffer penalty, leading people to take greater precautions. But things still happen.

I just tell them I'll happily get up when their friend gets back. In poker, it's called "calling the bluff".

I like this advice. With my luck I'd sit in the one seat in the whole car where the person really does come right back, but of course I could just graciously move to another.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Oh I am against saving seats in the lounge, and I am also against taking up extra seats either with personal items or even how you sit (many times a couple will take up all 4 seats in a ssl by how they sit and place personal items.)

But if someone wants to sit and read, or play cards, etc. In the SSL that's there choice. Again... I have very rarely seen the SSL completely filled so I really think the problem is highly exaggerated. As long as there are any empty seats, people should be able to stay as long as they want.

 

[railiner]

I live about 20 minutes from the train station. The train departs @ 9:16 am & I'm taking a city bus @ 7 am to get there. Is that enough time? :huh:

How about if the bus breaks down, or there's a major accident on the route that closes the road and causes a backup of 3 hours? Should I lose my ticket AND my money because I didn't leave earlier? :huh: (Oh, the 1st bus on my route is @7 am. Or should I take the bus the afternoon before & sleep on the platform of the unstaffed station overnight?)

Whatever you think is reasonable and appropriate to catch your train is your own business...Amtrak does not tell you how you should, and therefore should not be accountable for your decision....

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Use your intelligence and sagacity guided by experience. Sometimes your best wont do.

 

[tricia]

Use your intelligence and sagacity guided by experience.

This usually works well for Archie Goodwin. For the rest of us, YMMV.

 

[NorthShore]

On the other occasion, I was on a Metra Electric commuter train when we hit a trespasser on the tracks around 35th Street where the trains are going at a good clip since there are no intermediate stations. This was a really hard stop and we sat there for a few minutes when the emergency crews arrived. The conductor went through the train explaining the situation. We sat for several hours while the emergency crews did their work and the train crew had to be replaced in order to be drug tested. Again, anybody who wanted to know anything found out. There was no mass hysteria. Everybody was pretty quiet. We were all affected by this and wondered why a young woman had chosen to end her life this way, but life went on. A crew from the nearby 18th street shops took the train to University Park.

How long ago was this? That stretch always seems to have weird things going on (and funny a post about 35th St was post #35...).

Two or three years ago.

A Sox fan?

 

[MikefromCrete]

On the other occasion, I was on a Metra Electric commuter train when we hit a trespasser on the tracks around 35th Street where the trains are going at a good clip since there are no intermediate stations. This was a really hard stop and we sat there for a few minutes when the emergency crews arrived. The conductor went through the train explaining the situation. We sat for several hours while the emergency crews did their work and the train crew had to be replaced in order to be drug tested. Again, anybody who wanted to know anything found out. There was no mass hysteria. Everybody was pretty quiet. We were all affected by this and wondered why a young woman had chosen to end her life this way, but life went on. A crew from the nearby 18th street shops took the train to University Park.

How long ago was this? That stretch always seems to have weird things going on (and funny a post about 35th St was post #35...).

Two or three years ago.

A Sox fan?

I wouldn't know. Just some poor young woman who decided life wasn't worth living. Quite sad. Not the topic for a joke.

 

[NorthShore]

On the other occasion, I was on a Metra Electric commuter train when we hit a trespasser on the tracks around 35th Street where the trains are going at a good clip since there are no intermediate stations. This was a really hard stop and we sat there for a few minutes when the emergency crews arrived. The conductor went through the train explaining the situation. We sat for several hours while the emergency crews did their work and the train crew had to be replaced in order to be drug tested. Again, anybody who wanted to know anything found out. There was no mass hysteria. Everybody was pretty quiet. We were all affected by this and wondered why a young woman had chosen to end her life this way, but life went on. A crew from the nearby 18th street shops took the train to University Park.

How long ago was this? That stretch always seems to have weird things going on (and funny a post about 35th St was post #35...).

Two or three years ago.

A Sox fan?

I wouldn't know. Just some poor young woman who decided life wasn't worth living. Quite sad. Not the topic for a joke.

Too soon?

 

[MikefromCrete]

On the other occasion, I was on a Metra Electric commuter train when we hit a trespasser on the tracks around 35th Street where the trains are going at a good clip since there are no intermediate stations. This was a really hard stop and we sat there for a few minutes when the emergency crews arrived. The conductor went through the train explaining the situation. We sat for several hours while the emergency crews did their work and the train crew had to be replaced in order to be drug tested. Again, anybody who wanted to know anything found out. There was no mass hysteria. Everybody was pretty quiet. We were all affected by this and wondered why a young woman had chosen to end her life this way, but life went on. A crew from the nearby 18th street shops took the train to University Park.

How long ago was this? That stretch always seems to have weird things going on (and funny a post about 35th St was post #35...).

Two or three years ago.

A Sox fan?

I wouldn't know. Just some poor young woman who decided life wasn't worth living. Quite sad. Not the topic for a joke.

Too soon?

Not if you like making fun of people who kill themselves.

 

[NorthShore]

On the other occasion, I was on a Metra Electric commuter train when we hit a trespasser on the tracks around 35th Street where the trains are going at a good clip since there are no intermediate stations. This was a really hard stop and we sat there for a few minutes when the emergency crews arrived. The conductor went through the train explaining the situation. We sat for several hours while the emergency crews did their work and the train crew had to be replaced in order to be drug tested. Again, anybody who wanted to know anything found out. There was no mass hysteria. Everybody was pretty quiet. We were all affected by this and wondered why a young woman had chosen to end her life this way, but life went on. A crew from the nearby 18th street shops took the train to University Park.

How long ago was this? That stretch always seems to have weird things going on (and funny a post about 35th St was post #35...).

Two or three years ago.

A Sox fan?

I wouldn't know. Just some poor young woman who decided life wasn't worth living. Quite sad. Not the topic for a joke.

Too soon?

Not if you like making fun of people who kill themselves.

Ah, ironies lost! (35th street, post #35, the #35 bus which passes Sox park, just a mile away....a team that pretty much decided to commit baseball suicide in order to rebuild.)

 

[NorthShore]

On the other occasion, I was on a Metra Electric commuter train when we hit a trespasser on the tracks around 35th Street where the trains are going at a good clip since there are no intermediate stations. This was a really hard stop and we sat there for a few minutes when the emergency crews arrived. The conductor went through the train explaining the situation. We sat for several hours while the emergency crews did their work and the train crew had to be replaced in order to be drug tested. Again, anybody who wanted to know anything found out. There was no mass hysteria. Everybody was pretty quiet. We were all affected by this and wondered why a young woman had chosen to end her life this way, but life went on. A crew from the nearby 18th street shops took the train to University Park.

How long ago was this? That stretch always seems to have weird things going on (and funny a post about 35th St was post #35...).

Two or three years ago.

A Sox fan?

I wouldn't know. Just some poor young woman who decided life wasn't worth living. Quite sad. Not the topic for a joke.

%2

 

[Railroad Bill]

Let's move this discussion back to "hogging" seats in the Lounge Car and away from suicides on Metra trains. Thanks

 

[Devil's Advocate]

It is more than the administrative cost of rebooking a no-show....what about the lost revenue, of a bedroom going unsold? Such space is "perishable", in the sense that once it .unoccupied for a trip, it can never be sold (for that trip), again. Unless, as I said, they can sell it at the last minute

They’re not exchanging a rotten peach for a fresh peach; they’re handing you a second rotten peach to replace the one you just dropped on the ground. After four decades of selling sleepers Amtrak should be able to anticipate which rooms are likely to sell at the last second and which are not. Giving away a sleeper that was unlikely to sell anyway costs Amtrak little more than the administration cost of rebooking.

I purchase travel insurance all the time for my cruises. And they cover cancellation for any reason, as well as missing the trip, or a host of other bad things that can delay or hamper the trip. True, I don't get all of my money back, they have to set a fair deductible, or else people would cancel at the last minute for no good reason. Theaters have had that policy for as long as I known, and I never heard anyone say it was "heavy-handed. And I doubt that policy would defer many people from booking a train trip, if taking a train was what they wanted.

Amtrak is neither a cruise line nor a theater. Nor is Amtrak competing with cruise lines and theaters in the minds of most customers. Amtrak is a common carrier and as such is mainly competing with airlines, bus lines, and car rentals. Those are the companies and policies that Amtrak needs to worry about, not theaters and cruise lines.

Except that a common carrier isn't paying me a salary to be at a specific place at a specific time. I'm the person paying them. If the person who pays everyone else shows up late to your radio station does he pay an out of pocket penalty to the station staff? Your example is both irrational and irrelevant. Not to mention that where I live radio stations are generally nothing more than automated playlists with occasional bits of prerecorded banter.

I understand the difference. The point was made that pax should leave home early enough that traffic, weather, etc. wouldn't make them miss the train.

If you understood the difference you would not have equated Amtrak with a radio station in the first place. I’ve traveled on hundreds of trips with scheduled commercial transportation involving trains, planes, automobiles, buses, and boats from one end of this planet to the other. I have a 99% success record among those trips and so far it’s never been a problem. However, if Amtrak (or any other common carrier) starts imposing 100% fees for being late I won’t be traveling on them anymore and I’ll do everything I can to get the word out to everyone else.

 

[jis]

Good point. I agree with DA that this idea of 100% penalty is pure insanity thought up by people who apparently have zero experience with running any business of any size in the common carrier transportation area.