Great dome car 10031 usage

[The Davy Crockett]

There were many great observation cars in the day.

I was fortunate to have seen a number of these type cars as I wandered around Chicago, Cincinnati, and Louisville in the 50's.

WOW! NICE photos Tom! :excl:

I'll take one of each!...

Cars that is!

Thank you, thank you, thank you for sharing!

 

[FormerOBS]

Ocean View, Mountain View, and one other car of this series were in Auto Train service until that train transitioned to Superliners around the mid-1990's. Maybe somebody else can supply the date and the identity of the third car. Maintenance of those cars was a real problem: No room to work under them, for instance, and I've been told that replacement of windows was outrageously expensive.

Tom

 

[The Davy Crockett]

Ocean View, Mountain View, and one other car of this series were in Auto Train service until that train transitioned to Superliners around the mid-1990's. Maybe somebody else can supply the date and the identity of the third car. Maintenance of those cars was a real problem: No room to work under them, for instance, and I've been told that replacement of windows was outrageously expensive.

Tom

I don't know the answer to that, but here is what trainweb.org {link here} has about the other 4 GN full domes' service to Amtrak:

1390-Glacier View

to Amtrak 9360, used on Amtrak's "Empire Builder" until replaced by Superliners and retired 4/81, then sold/traded (for baggage cars!!!) to the BN in 1983 to become BNA-24 "Glacier View" and was assigned Amtrak private car number 800075.

1393-Lake View

Amtrak 9363. Was retired by Amtrak 2/82 and stored in Oakland CA. Southern Pacific purchased the car and scrapped it at the Oakland yards in 1983, using the OSH (outside swing hanger) trucks for their business car "Oakland".

1394-Prairie View

to Amtrak 9364. Was eventually used as an Amtrak parts car and was sold 5/93 as a shell (less trucks) to the BN

1395-River View - this car was actually owned by the CB&Q, but was their (partial?) contribution to the Empire Builder car pool

the car was purchased by Amtrak and was renumbered 9365, was later rebuilt for Amtrak Auto train service and with the addition of HEP in 12/84 became the 9302 (name removed). It was in active Amtrak service in 2000 in the "San Diegan" pool, and moved to Chicago in September for special train service. Shipped to Beech Grove early 2001 for truck replacement, then sidelined due to budget cuts. Sold to Henry Hillman/Oregon Rail Corp for American Orient Express service 9/2001

Hope this helps!

Scott

 

[PerRock]

In a bit of a side note, does anyone know who owns the majority of the original California zephyr cars? Or are most scrapped by now.

Peter

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

In a bit of a side note, does anyone know who owns the majority of the original California zephyr cars? Or are most scrapped by now.

Peter

3 Heritage Diners still prowling east of Chicago have Silver pedigrees and likely saw service on the California Zephyr. They are Diner 8501 (Silver Tureen), Diner 8502 (Silver Cuisine) and Diner 8504 (Silver Restaurant). A few other Heritage Diners have CBQ pedigree but I have no immediate documentation if they originally had Silver names; if I get a chance I'll pull my Roster Books and look.

I was most excited late last week when I got to enjoy 3 meals in the Silver Cuisine on the Silver Meteor. An anachronism where it was but I'll take it!

source of my information - www.on-track-on-line.com

 

[Slasharoo]

Three Zephyr Silver cars, the Silver Lariat, the Silver Rapids and the Silver Solarium (observation car) are in service on the California Zephyr Railcar Charters. They are all in great shape.

 

[Willie1946]

The Austin Steam Train Association owns and has restored the Silver Pine. It operates on ASTA excursion trains on a regular basis.

 

[FormerOBS]

Davy:

So the third Great Dome on the Auto Train must have been River View. Your source indicates the name was removed, so maybe that explains why I remembered Ocean and Mountain, but not the third car's name. Hard to believe it's been about 20 years since I worked those cars. Do you know what became of Mountain View?

Tom

 

[XHRTSP]

Assuming Amtrak wanted to, could they just tack on a few more chassis to the Viewliner II order and have them built as dome cars? From an engineering and manufacturing prospective, how difficult would that be?

 

[neroden]

It would require some design work to add the extra windows to a Viewliner, like the Superliner Sightseer Lounges -- but not *that* much work. It wouldn't be terribly different from the dining car design. I do think this would be a very good idea.

It would be a lot more design work to build an actual dome, and would have no real benefit over a "Viewliner Sightseer Lounge". Plus, a Viewliner Sightseer Lounge could go right into NY Penn, a great operational advantage over an actual dome.

Amtrak's first priority at CAF should be scraping up enough money to exercise some of the options; the 130-car order is too small, and Amtrak is almost certainly going to wish it has at least 5 more diners, 5 more bag-dorms, and 10 more sleeping cars.

If Amtrak somehow manages to get additional budget for new cars, however, I would say that ordering "Viewliner Sightseer Lounges" would be a good investment. They should immediately replace the Horizon and Amfleet cafes; the cafes can then be converted into coaches and pressed back into service until Amtrak can afford to order new coaches. This would give more bang for the buck than simply ordering new coaches.

 

[The Davy Crockett]

Davy:

So the third Great Dome on the Auto Train must have been River View. Your source indicates the name was removed, so maybe that explains why I remembered Ocean and Mountain, but not the third car's name. Hard to believe it's been about 20 years since I worked those cars. Do you know what became of Mountain View?

Tom

Tom,

Here is what I've found.

First, from this page at trainweb.org:

[Amtrak] Sold to Henry Hillman/Oregon Rail Corp for American Orient Express service 9/2001 and moved to AOE at Western Jct WA. Rebuilt, renamed "Copper Canyon" (800743) and placed into service on the AOE II train set. Became part of "Grand Luxe"/AOE operation, then sold early 2009 to Xanterra with other Grand Luxe equipment

Xanterra is the company that runs the Grand Canyon Railway. From this page at their website:

Luxury Dome Car

Fred Harvey

Constructed by the Budd Company for the CB&Q (Chicago, Burlington and Quincy) in 1955, this dome car was named River View. CB&Q operated this luxury streamliner from Chicago to Minneapolis, where the Great Northern Railway took it over for the rest of the journey to Seattle. Amtrak purchased the car and operated it in a variety of services, eventually selling it to the American Orient Express (AOE) in 2001, when it was renamed Copper Canyon.

In 2011 Copper Canyon was purchased by the Grand Canyon Railway and was renamed Fred Harvey. The rail car needed a complete overhaul which lasted one year and used over 8,000 man hours at a cost of $1 million. The Fred Harvey car made its first trip to the Grand Canyon under new ownership in September 2012. The full length dome car joined Grand Canyon Railway’s Luxury Class Service as a Luxury Dome Car seating 66 passengers upstairs and open lounge seating down stairs. The car measure 85 ft. long, 12 ft. wide, 16 ft. high and 91 tons.

I'd love to see what RV/CC/FH looks/feels/smells/rides like since the overhaul , but it sure sounds like it has found itself a not too shabby 'retiement' gig, if I may say so myself.

Scott/Davy

 

[The Davy Crockett]

I just had a thought... hboy:

Why in the heck didn't Xanterra name the car "River Canyon View" as a homage to the car's heritage, instead of a meaningless new name? :unsure:

Yes, Fred had a lot to do with railroading history in The West, but I don't think the car would give two hoots (toots?) about Mr. Harvey, and non-foamers ride it for a river canyon view!

 

[The Davy Crockett]

Tom,

Now that I'm onmy second cup of coffee, I realized you asked what happened to Mountain View, not River View.

More later...

Davy

 

[zephyr17]

Assuming Amtrak wanted to, could they just tack on a few more chassis to the Viewliner II order and have them built as dome cars? From an engineering and manufacturing prospective, how difficult would that be?

Domes are "sowbellies" with the lower stuff passenger spaces dropped down between the trucks, similar to the lower level of Superliners. This is to provide enough room to have a dome and still meet clearance restrictions. Dome seats are up on platforms, that enhances the views, but it is also provides the bit of extra headroom for the hallways between the car ends and the sowbelly in the middle of the car.

So, no, you could not build a dome car out of a standard Viewliner shell. The engineering of a dome is completely different because of the sowbelly.

 

[jis]

So, no, you could not build a dome car out of a standard Viewliner shell. The engineering of a dome is completely different because of the sowbelly.

Yeah. You might stand a better chance starting with a Bombardier MLV as used by NJT and MARC, or an LIRR C# as a base to work with. You get the sowbelly built in on those.

 

[trainman74]

Why in the heck didn't Xanterra name the car "River Canyon View" as a homage to the car's heritage, instead of a meaningless new name?

Xanterra is the corporate descendant of the Fred Harvey company, so I don't think they would consider it a meaningless name!

 

[MikefromCrete]

Fred Harvey is certainly not a meaningless name in the context of western railroading.

 

[NorthShore]

101 (41).jpg

PRR Broadway Limited

There is one of these up for sale at OMR presently. I wonder...if a hundred of us all pitched in for one percent...

 

[cirdan]

Since this is a passenger rail forum, I'm going to be a stickler. An observation car can have a dome, but a dome is not necessarily an observation car. An observation car is at the end of a passenger train and generally have a rounded end like the Park Car on the Canadian:

But there are also observation cars like the Cedar Rapids:

I've always wondered why the seats face inward when the view is outward. If you want to sit in a circle and play cards or chat, surely there are other parts of the train that could be furnished for that.

 

[FormerOBS]

Many of the chairs in that photo are free-standing, and could be turned to face the windows. The car served two functions: A place to view the scenery, and a social gathering place. So people might be engaging in either activity at any given time. Also, that particular car would be a great place to face the interior and see the scenery on the other side.

Tom

 

[njdon]

Great pics Mr. FSS. Thanks for sharing, they really capture the era.

 

[lstone19]

Xanterra is the company that runs the Grand Canyon Railway. From this page at their website:

Luxury Dome Car

Fred Harvey

Constructed by the Budd Company for the CB&Q (Chicago, Burlington and Quincy) in 1955, this dome car was named River View. CB&Q operated this luxury streamliner from Chicago to Minneapolis, where the Great Northern Railway took it over for the rest of the journey to Seattle. Amtrak purchased the car and operated it in a variety of services, eventually selling it to the American Orient Express (AOE) in 2001, when it was renamed Copper Canyon.

In 2011 Copper Canyon was purchased by the Grand Canyon Railway and was renamed Fred Harvey. The rail car needed a complete overhaul which lasted one year and used over 8,000 man hours at a cost of $1 million. The Fred Harvey car made its first trip to the Grand Canyon under new ownership in September 2012. The full length dome car joined Grand Canyon Railway’s Luxury Class Service as a Luxury Dome Car seating 66 passengers upstairs and open lounge seating down stairs. The car measure 85 ft. long, 12 ft. wide, 16 ft. high and 91 tons.

I'd love to see what RV/CC/FH looks/feels/smells/rides like since the overhaul , but it sure sounds like it has found itself a not too shabby 'retiement' gig, if I may say so myself.

I rode on the Fred Harvey earlier this week as part of a Grand Canyon trip. The car is in great shape! Upper deck is reserved seating; the lower deck lounge is open seating for use by "luxury class" passengers (luxury class being both the luxury dome passengers in the Fred Harvey as well as the luxury parlor passengers in the car right behind). Fred Harvey passengers also have access to the luxury parlor car and it's open-air observation platform. And if not sold out (our trip wasn't close to sold out in the luxury cars), freedom to move around as desired. One of the cheapest ways around to get a "private car" experience.

 

[The Davy Crockett]

Why in the heck didn't Xanterra name the car "River Canyon View" as a homage to the car's heritage, instead of a meaningless new name?

Xanterra is the corporate descendant of the Fred Harvey company, so I don't think they would consider it a meaningless name!

THEY don't, and neither do I, but the name is meaningless, as I said in the next line of my post, to the car. River Canyon View would NOT be meaningless to the car.

 

[The Davy Crockett]

Fred Harvey is certainly not a meaningless name in the context of western railroading.

You were almost 2 hours late in making the same comment that somebody else made (some might call this 'piling on') about a statement that was explained in the next line of my post.

 

[The Davy Crockett]

Davy:

So the third Great Dome on the Auto Train must have been River View. Your source indicates the name was removed, so maybe that explains why I remembered Ocean and Mountain, but not the third car's name. Hard to believe it's been about 20 years since I worked those cars. Do you know what became of Mountain View?

Tom

Tom,

Sorry it took a little while, but nevertheless, here is what I've found about Mountain View...

Again, from Trainweb :

Mountain View" - to BN 3/70 (same number), to Amtrak 9362. Was rebuilt with HEP (2/85) and renumbered 9301(2) and used in Amtrak Auto Train service - car name was retained. This car was renumbered 10030 in 1998 (name STILL retained) and was assigned to the Special Services Unit, and was active in Amtrak "San Diegan" pool service in 2000, as well as seeing a large amount of "special train" service (moved to Seattle in fall 2000 for football specials, excursions, and Reno Fun Train in winter). Shipped to Beech Grove mid-2001 for truck replacement, then sidelined due to budget cuts. Sold to Henry Hillman/Oregon Rail Corp for American Orient Express service 9/2001 and moved to AOE at Western Jct WA. Renamed "New Orleans" (800742) and made it's first trip 4/2002. Became part of "Grand Luxe"/AOE, then sold early 2009 to Xanterra with other Grand Luxe equipment.

Since that was last updated, this is what I found: From Railway Preservation News (Link):

The former American Orient Express full-length dome "Yellowstone", former Great Northern 1392 "Mountain View".
GCRY apparently has at least one other full-length dome, former CB&Q 1395 "River View". Both reportedly came from the Anschutz fleet in Denver after Xanterra's acquisition of the GCRY.

From a TrainOrders post in 2011:

AOEX 800743. Former Chicago, Burlington & Quincy 1395 "River View", built by Budd in 1955. To BN 1395 at merger, then Amtrak 9365 in 1971. Rebuilt with HEP and renumbered 9302 in 1984, sold to American Orient Express (AOE) in 2001. Lounge and table top seating in the dome area, small bar, lounge seats, and office in lower level. To Xanterra for their American Railway Explorer. Mr. Anschutz cancelled that project in August 2010 and sent several former AOE/GrandLuxe Express cars to his Xanterra Grand Canyon Railway in April 2011. (Info courtesy GrandLuxe Rail Journeys Roster)

And this:

If you notice closely, above the railroad banner on the top of the car, you will see what is left of the gold and green that was applied by WRC for what would have been the American Railway Explorer. We had just finished priming the 18th car when the project was closed. Most of the cars went to Ross Rowland and what is now becoming the Greenbrier Express (please do not derail this great discussion with your angst about that project.)
The former American Orient Express cars, later knows as Grand Lux were all renamed as part of the ARE project. The name of each car was a location with-in a US National Park (ironically also a park that Xanterra provides concessionaire services to.) The full domes were named Yellowstone and Grand Canyon. Otherwise known as New Orleans and Copper Canyon respectively when they were AOE and Grand Lux cars.

It appears that Grand Canyon Ry. has elected to leave the name of the full dome as changed for the ARE project. Though you may find it ironic that the car has the words Grand Canyon on it twice, this is indeed the name that was approved by Xanterra (Mr. Anschutz) during the project. I find it fitting that the car retained its new name "Grand Canyon"

It would be fitting, if the second full dome is placed in service that it too retain its new name, Yellowstone.

Interestingly enough, the great green interior and carpet is the new product that was purchased for the ARE and is fittingly being used by Xanterra in this restoration.

This is what the dome looked like after we finished it and sent it back to Denver in June of 2010. What never was......

I couldn't post the picture from this post, but here is a link to some pictures of the restoration posted at Facebook.

I can't help but posting this comment:

at least "Grand View" or "Canyon View" would have been a little more acceptable.
What was wrong with original name, River View?.... they follow the River, err, creek up to the North Rim, so it would be appropriately applicable.

There are over 150 historically appropriate names that are used within the Grand Canyon, to describe various parts, that they could have chosen.

Sometimes I wonder...

And no, this comment was not made by me.

To finish, I can't find anything about the car at Xanterra's website, so I'm not sure of its current status.