Greyhound seats and fleet questions

[Caesar La Rock]

2003 MCI J4500 Pembina: #6987-6989

2003 MCI J4500 Winnipeg: #6990-6991

2005 MCI J4500 Winnipeg: #6992-6994

All are powered with Detroit Diesel Series 60 12.7L, with the exception of #6994, which is powered with a CAT C13 ACERT.

Edit:

2000 Prevost H3-45: #6666-6669

2005 Prevost H3-45: #6670

Thank you.

 

[railiner]

GLC also had a handful of 'J's and H's....we would occasionally see them on Toronto-Buffalo-NYC pool runs. Of those 'rare bird's', IIRC, only a few of the H's were purchased new by GLC. The other's were acquired from other carrier's.....

Thinking back, (it's been several years), the 'J's may have been EL-3's, or a mixture of both types....

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I think GLC only had 102EL3s. I don't think a J4500 has ever been spotted in GLC service. Some or all of the EL3s were sold to Rocky Mountain Railtours and Gray Line West, IIRC. Gray Line West subsequently went bankrupt. Here's a pic: http://www.hankstruckpictures.com/pix/trucks/bc_trucks/2006/jun29/bus/dsc_7504.jpg.

I'm wondering how Bustang's new D4500CLs and NJT's new D4500CTHs are coming with seats that do not appear to meet the newest containment standards. Bustang is using the Amaya Torino Standard with 3-point seat belts and NJT is still using American Seating 2095 that don't even have seatbelts.

Also, why is BusTracker not working for runs like the 1314 and 1318?

 

[railiner]

On holiday's we got a weird assortment of ChaCo Trails and Pentag-Midland buses that GLC acquired, as well as the XL-II's they got from Orleans....

And I believe also, Hotard....maybe other's.....

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Is anyone else having problems with Greyhound BusTracker? The buses aren't showing up the maps.

 

[rickycourtney]

I'm wondering how Bustang's new D4500CLs and NJT's new D4500CTHs are coming with seats that do not appear to meet the newest containment standards. Bustang is using the Amaya Torino Standard with 3-point seat belts and NJT is still using American Seating 2095 that don't even have seatbelts.

That's because the NHTSA rule still hasn't gone into effect.
All newly manufactured buses will be required to be equipped with lap and shoulder belts beginning in November 2016. I'm not sure if that rule also includes the new containment requirements, so that could go into effect earlier or later.

 

[railiner]

I tried looking to see which of our buses came in on our GLI pool run...285...and there was an 'apology' message saying that that trip's info was unavailable....

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

As I see it, there's two rules here: one about containment, and the other about seat belts. AFAIK, all motorcoach seating in production must have "containment". Then, effective November 2016, all motorcoach seating in production would require 3-point seat belts.

That being said, I failed to find the laws regarding "containment" on motorcoaches, only the laws for school buses.

Still, I personally thought NJT would be proactive and order 3-point seat belts in their newest coaches. But American 2095s can't be equipped with 3-point seat belts, so NJT's new units this year probably won't ever have them, since NJT rarely replaces seating or refurbishes old coaches.

 

[rickycourtney]

It actually doesn't surprise me that NJT didn't proactively buy coaches with 3-point seat belts. Many transit agencies argued that they should get an exemption to this seat belt rule and when it was clear they wouldn't, they fought against the rule.

Frankly I can see it from both sides. On one hand its better to make sure that no matter who operates the coach, you always have a seat belt available. That being said transit agencies do tend to operate their coaches differently than a company like Greyhound. You typically have a shorter spacing between stops (so nobody bothers to buckle up), some agencies allow standees and usually transit bus drivers are taught to drive differently, since they spend so much time in urban environments with no passengers buckled up.

Interestingly the rule won't apply to the transit style intercity buses Sound Transit buys, even though they're equipped with coach style seats (the Amaya Patriot) and operate over the same highways.

Speaking of which... here's a shot of a New Flyer DE60LFR with Amaya Patriot seats owned by Sound Transit. It was operating in the Downtown Seattle Transit Tunnel when I took this picture... it's a sweet ride compared to everything else in the tunnel.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

So you mean transit agencies who operate motorcoaches will need 3-point seat belts, while transit agencies who operate suburban buses (like that DE60LFR) don't need it?

I think part of the difference is that suburbans drive a low slower than motorcoaches. Transit drivers do seem to drive differently. They do not actively pass slow vehicles and do not accelerate/decelerate as much. I think transit drivers are closer to charter and tour drivers than Greyhound drivers.

The confusing part is about containment. Neither 2095 nor Torino Standard offer containment, so why don't private sector operators order those seats again?

Anyway, seems like BusTracker is working again. DL3s are now invading Denver.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

Anyone knows the story on these Van Hools from Greyhound.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/mbernero/12281000915/

MI-0075, I presume owned by Michigan, but operated by Greyhound? I'm also adding Van Hools, H3-45s, and J4500s to the roster over here.

http://cptdb.ca/wiki/index.php?title=Greyhound_USA#Active

 

[rickycourtney]

So you mean transit agencies who operate motorcoaches will need 3-point seat belts, while transit agencies who operate suburban buses (like that DE60LFR) don't need it?

Correct. Transit buses are exempt from the law, even if they have a suburban configuration. But motorcoaches operated by the same agency will need to comply.

I think part of the difference is that suburbans drive a low slower than motorcoaches.

That's not true on the freeway. Sound Transit's DE60LFR coaches & D4500CL coaches both normally travel in the HOV lane and go the posted speed limit.

Transit drivers do seem to drive differently. They do not actively pass slow vehicles and do not accelerate/decelerate as much. I think transit drivers are closer to charter and tour drivers than Greyhound drivers.

That might be your experience, but it's certainly hasn't been mine. Both line haul (including Greyhound) AND charter drivers seem to drive like truckers, they go as fast as they can get away with and buses can go faster than trucks.
Transit drivers on the other hand drive for safety. Since passengers aren't belted in and many aren't contained (standing or sitting facing the center) they need to be able to stop without slamming on the brakes.

Tour drivers just drive slow because people want to look out the windows.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I guess each driver is different. Greyhound drivers do drive aggressively for the most part, though I've seen exceptions. Reno-, Salt Lake City-, and Denver-based drivers seem the best, while California drivers seem a lot less consistent.

The transit drivers that go on the freeway seem to cruise under the speed limit and get passed by everybody. At least that's what I saw with Santa Clarita Transit, UTA, and Denver RTD.

On GTE, I heard that NJT got an exemption to the seat belt rules and will continue to operate without belts on their motorcoaches. They are presumably also exempt from containment.

Also received photo confirmation that some of the White G's got lightly refurbished with new seat covers, but no Wi-Fi or outlets. One example is #7213. #60682 (now a Blue G) was actually completely rebuilt, even though it's an ex-Americanos unit. Looks like the G4500s are all here to stay for the time being. Greyhound is suffering a fleet shortage.

 

[rickycourtney]

Whoever told you that on GTE is mistaken. Since the rule hasn't gone into effect, there would be no need to get an exemption to buy motorcoaches without seatbelts. Furthermore, since the rules only apply to newly built motorcoaches, no exemption would be needed to continue to operate existing units after the rule goes into effect.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

No, this is what he said:
"NJT not using seat belts is a loophole... while the belts are required of over-the-road coaches in line haul, charter, and tour service, transit buses are exempt and NJT can identify all their buses as being in "transit service", even though they have lav-equipped units that are competing with Greyhound on NY-AC. It's almost payback to the Feds on NJT's part for changing the transit charter rules in 1987, since NJT had maintained the charter and tour department of its private predecessor TNJ (formerly Public Service) to that point."

Since he posted it on GTE, a public group, and was not sent via private e-mail, I have no restrictions on quoting him.

Basically, he's (somewhat arrogantly) saying that NJT ain't gonna use seat belts or containment, not now, not ever. And yes, he claims to work for NJT and has insider info. He is still wrong with his first sentence because belts aren't required in the private sector until November 2016. If you ask me, I'm a bit angry at NJT and their tactics.

 

[rickycourtney]

He's also dead wrong about the part where he says...

while the belts are required of over-the-road coaches in line haul, charter, and tour service, transit buses are exempt and NJT can identify all their buses as being in "transit service", even though they have lav-equipped units that are competing with Greyhound on NY-AC.

Quoting now from the NHTSA rule...

“Transit bus” means a bus sold for public transportation provided by, or on behalf of a State or local government, that is equipped with a stop-request system and that is not an over-the-road bus. “Stop-request system” means a vehicle-integrated system for passenger use to signal to a vehicle operator that they are requesting a stop. “Over-the-road bus” means a bus characterized by an elevated passenger deck located over a baggage compartment.

Therefore a D4500CT owned by NJT is not exempt from the rule because while it may be used for public transportation provided by a State government and is equipped with a stop-request system... it still qualifies as an over-the-road bus.

So yes, any over-the-road bus, built after November 2016, even if it's to be used for public transportation, has to be seatbelt equipped.

And just for fun... here's some more text from the NHTSA rule to really twist a knife in that GTE commenters statement...

It was NHTSA’s intent in the NPRM to require lap/shoulder seat belts on “over-the-road” buses operated by transit agencies. Over-the-road buses used by transit agencies and over-the-road buses used by private companies for intercity transport both carry large numbers of passengers over long distances, and at highway speeds. Given the occurrence of a crash, the risk of fatality is the same for both groups of buses. It is not uncommon to see commuter express buses traveling on the highway alongside privately-operated tour and charter buses of nearly identical construction. We acknowledge that the public transit agencies’ safety record for operating commuter express service is better than the safety record shown by some private sector operators. However, given the overall similarity of the buses in construction and use, we cannot distinguish, from a public safety standpoint, good reasons for requiring passenger lap/shoulder seat belts in only privately-operated versions of the commuter express buses when the risk of rollover in a crash, risk of fatal or serious injury in a rollover, and risk of fatal or serious injury in all crashes are the same for both groups of buses.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

Around Orlando, transit drivers go as fast as the bus can go. I've been on BRTs, Phantoms, D60s, NABIs, and Nova artics that have topped 70mph. The company once had a 1997 35ft. Phantom who's top speed was 86mph, powered with a Cummins M11.

As for motorcoaches, I rode on a Van Hool C2045 from Mears (last year and numbered 4209) that was going at a pretty good speed. The driver took that bus up to over 70+, but it was a smooth ride. No sudden stops or anything like that, smooth sailing as they say. That's my personal experience with speed and 4209 did not have seatbelts.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Oh great. I knew something was fishy and I can't even challenge him (the GTE poster) because one of the co-admins supports him and has already deleted one of my posts voicing anti-NJT opinions. Ugh, NJT and some (not all) of their supporters are just pissing me off. This is basically why MCI got away with their D4505s.

Sorry CJ, I just saw your question on the Van Hools. Those MI- units are Michigan-owned. That CPTDB roster is very inaccurate. I hope you can use Texas DMV to revise it: https://apps.txdmv.gov/apps/mccs/truckstop/.

Be aware that the years shown on Texas DMV are model years, not build years. For example, #6520-6559 are 1999 102DL3s with a 2000 model year. #6560-6599 are 2000s with a 2001 model year. By that time, the 102DL3 had already been renamed D4500, but Greyhound had ordered them as 102DL3s, so they are 102DL3s.

 

[rickycourtney]

I couldn't resist... I had to reply to that thread on GTE.

Anyways to answer your question as to why NJT orders the American Seating 2095... it's either one of two things, NJT wants fleet commonality or they're just buying whatever's cheapest.

 

[rickycourtney]

I thought this was a neat photo, so I had to share...

3 agencies and Greyhound enter Everett Station by SounderBruce, on Flickr

From front to back, that's a Community Transit New Flyer D40i, a Skagit Transit Gillig Low Floor, a Everett Transit Gillig BRT Hybrid and a Greyhound G4500 all pulling into Everett Station at the same time.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Thanks, Ricky. You did a good job. I'm still baffled about containment; I thought containment was required on all motorcoach seats now.

Your link led me to this picture of GLI #7221: https://www.flickr.com/photos/sounderbruce/18778293900/in/photostream/. I noticed how the lower window on the entrance door has a ring of bolts around it. Looks like Greyhound heavily bolted on that window just to prevent it from falling off. At least a lot better than duct tape. J4500s reportedly suffer the same problem.

BTW, I was browsing around Prevost's Pre-Owned Coaches, and found a surprising number of 2014 H3-45s and 9700s for sale: https://www.prevostcar.com/content/pre-owned-seated-coach.

I'm not sure what operator would be selling those 1-year-old buses.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

Thanks, Ricky. You did a good job. I'm still baffled about containment; I thought containment was required on all motorcoach seats now.

Your link led me to this picture of GLI #7221: https://www.flickr.com/photos/sounderbruce/18778293900/in/photostream/. I noticed how the lower window on the entrance door has a ring of bolts around it. Looks like Greyhound heavily bolted on that window just to prevent it from falling off. At least a lot better than duct tape. J4500s reportedly suffer the same problem.

BTW, I was browsing around Prevost's Pre-Owned Coaches, and found a surprising number of 2014 H3-45s and 9700s for sale: https://www.prevostcar.com/content/pre-owned-seated-coach.

I'm not sure what operator would be selling those 1-year-old buses.

Maybe the operator went belly up and is selling off their fleet.

 

[rickycourtney]

To my knowledge, there are no new rules governing containment of passengers in over-the-road buses here in the US. NHTSA is currently finishing a study on compartmentalization (the new term for containment here in the states) and could soon issue a rule that could go into effect in 2 years.

That being said... Europe does have rules regarding containment, so therefore a lot of seats sold here in the US that comply with the new seatbelt standard also comply with european containment standards. It's just cheaper to make a seat that complies with both standards.

Compartmentalization was just one of the safety improvement studies required by the "Motorcoach Enhanced Safety Act of 2012". NHTSA is also looking into electronic stability control systems, roof strength standards (for rollover crashes), glass glazing standards for windows and doors (to prevent ejections), tire pressure monitoring systems, tire performance standards, fire prevention & mitigation, interior impact protection and crash avoidance systems (crash warning, crash imminent braking and lane departure warning systems).

Note that manufacturers have already included some of those technologies on some new over-the-road buses... but NHTSA may decide to require it on all new over-the-road buses.

Here's an interesting (but somewhat dated) presentation on the subject.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Looks like the Premier LS was an integral part of the testing. I think American Seating will be hit hardest by new regulations. Their Premier seat was intended to meet them, but is now universally known as a piece of crap. Their bestselling 2095 for commuter use has neither seat belts, not containment, and is not very comfortable either.

Kiel Seating from Germany is breaking into the market with their slimline seats that promise to meet safety requirements while saving weight, but potentially at the expense of comfort. Amaya has introduced a new Torino G Plus 2+1. They are now selling only Torino variants and the A2-TEN. National continues to make updated versions of their traditional 4210s, now with containment and 3-point seat belts.

Rumors are that NJT will claim their motorcoaches are not "over-the-road-buses" by filling in the cargo holds with variant stuff. The CNG buses use the holds for CNG tanks. I can only hope that NJT will not order another huge batch of MCIs, for then Greyhound would likely never order MCIs again.

Interestingly, the presentation says passengers had trouble with the window escape bar. I've been permitted to try opening the windows on 102D3s and 102DL3s; the windows always opened easily with a slight pull on the escape bar, and I'm a lightweight Chinese guy.

 

[rickycourtney]

Looks like the Premier LS was an integral part of the testing. I think American Seating will be hit hardest by new regulations. Their Premier seat was intended to meet them, but is now universally known as a piece of crap. Their bestselling 2095 for commuter use has neither seat belts, not containment, and is not very comfortable either.

Having sat on an American Seating 2095 today... I agree, they aren't very comfortable. That being said, I'm not sure the Premier is doomed. It seems that comfort is not always the most important thing to the people who purchase seats.

Kiel Seating from Germany is breaking into the market with their slimline seats that promise to meet safety requirements while saving weight, but potentially at the expense of comfort. Amaya has introduced a new Torino G Plus 2+1. They are now selling only Torino variants and the A2-TEN. National continues to make updated versions of their traditional 4210s, now with containment and 3-point seat belts.

I wouldn't count out slimline seats simply because of the name. Alaska's new slimline seats are possibly the most comfortable coach airline seat I've sat in a few years. Slimline seats are great because you can used the weight saved to make the seat bottom ticker and you increase legroom without having to remove seats. All that being said, they have Kiel Seating on the newest Talgo trainsets up here in the PNW... and the seats aren't that comfortable.

Amaya makes a great product and it's interesting to see the evolution of their products as they contend with the new regulations. National also makes a great seat.

Rumors are that NJT will claim their motorcoaches are not "over-the-road-buses" by filling in the cargo holds with variant stuff. The CNG buses use the holds for CNG tanks.

I read that too. I don't think that will fly with safety regulators, but only time will tell.

I can only hope that NJT will not order another huge batch of MCIs, for then Greyhound would likely never order MCIs again.

Don't hold your breath. Losing the NJT order may spell the end of the D4500, but it won't be the end of MCI.

Interestingly, the presentation says passengers had trouble with the window escape bar. I've been permitted to try opening the windows on 102D3s and 102DL3s; the windows always opened easily with a slight pull on the escape bar, and I'm a lightweight Chinese guy.

It's not the action of actually operating the mechanism that's hard... it's the effort required to push open a 60+ pound window.