Ground Transport in the Pacific Northwest

[Willbridge]

Sunday, October 8th - seats available except in the trip to BC

Here's the PDX to SEA line-up as of Wednesday night:
0800 FB $34
0820 AT $59/$87
1040 FB $34
1200 AT $66/SO
1230 FB $34
1500 FB $34
1505 AT SO/SO
1556 AT SO/--/$293
1910 FB $34
1925 AT $42/$87
2325 GL $34

And here's PDX to SPK:
0800 FB $61 via Seattle
0820 AT $169/$197/$277 chng at Seattle
0950 FB>GL $45 chng at Pasco
1645 AT $62/--/$202

Greyhound/Flix continues to fiddle around with PDX<>SPK connections. After moving from Stanfield to Pasco they moved to Hermiston. On October 1st there was no connection for a few days and now they're back at Pasco. Pasco Intermodal is the only purpose-built station in this saga. (See pix below.)

AT = Amtrak Coach/Business/Sleeper,
FB = Flixbus includes service charge rounded,
GL = Greyhound Lines includes service charge rounded.
SO = Sold Out.

March 2023 - meet of the DEN>SLC>BOI>PSC>PDX run with the SPK>PSC>SEA run.


September 2016

 

[Willbridge]

Sunday, October 29th - seats available in the clean-up trip.

Here's the PDX to SEA line-up as of Wednesday night:
0800 FB $59
0820 AT SO/SO
1040 FB $44
1200 AT SO/SO
1230 FB $34
1500 FB $34
1505 AT SO/SO
1556 AT SO/--/$297
1910 FB $39
1925 AT $66/$87
2325 GL $29

And here's PDX to SPK:
0800 FB $87 via Seattle
0820 AT SO/SO/SO chng at Seattle
0950 FB>GL $43 chng at Pasco
1645 AT $61/--/$211

AT = Amtrak Coach/Business/Sleeper,
FB = Flixbus includes service charge rounded,
GL = Greyhound Lines includes service charge rounded.
SO = Sold Out.

 

[Willbridge]

Here's a message from All Aboard Washington which sheds light on the subject:

https://www.aawa.us/news/posts/all-...nt-delayed-amtrak-cascades-service-increases/
Sunday, November 12th - reach deep in your pocket.

Here's the PDX to SEA line-up as of Wednesday night:
0800 FB $39
0820 AT SO/SO
1040 FB $49
1200 AT SO/SO
1230 FB $67
1500 FB $49
1505 AT SO/SO
1556 AT SO/--/$460
1910 FB $49
1925 AT SO/$87
2325 GL $34

And here's PDX to SPK:
0800 FB $107 via Seattle
0820 AT SO/SO/SO chng at Seattle
0950 FB>GL $47 chng at Pasco
1645 AT $61/--/$266

AT = Amtrak Coach/Business/Sleeper,
FB = Flixbus includes service charge rounded,
GL = Greyhound Lines includes service charge rounded.
SO = Sold Out.

 

[BlackDiamond]

Here's a message from All Aboard Washington which sheds light on the subject:

https://www.aawa.us/news/posts/all-...nt-delayed-amtrak-cascades-service-increases/

Is there equipment that would be available to add these trips? Or can they do it with better utilization of the current fleet?

 

[jis]

Is there equipment that would be available to add these trips? Or can they do it with better utilization of the current fleet?

My understanding is that in this case the issue is that Sound Transit is trying to behave like a bad freight host railroad, which given that the Cascade Service is principally a Washington DOT's baby, is quite bizarre. The disagreement is about trackage charges, penalties and performance bonuses for operation on a small segment of Sound Transit owned trackage. But who says that government bureaucracies cannot be at least as obdurate and obstructive as private freight railroads?

 

[Matthew H Fish]

I have mentioned this in my own "travel around the Willamette Valley" thread, but I should also put this here:
Salem, Oregon recently restarted commercial air service, with flights going between Salem and both Las Vegas and Burbank.

And as this article explains:
https://thepointsguy.com/news/salem-oregon-commerical-flights/One of the key reasons why this happened is that a combination of both the local government and the USDOT. The article isn't actually very clear on the amount of the subsidies (because some of them might include later itemized amounts), but it seems like several million dollars, both to renovate the terminal, and for direct subsidies to the airline if their revenue falls short.

So why this is all related to train travel:
https://wsdot.wa.gov/sites/default/files/2023-04/Amtrak-Cascades-2022-Performance-Report.pdfAccording to this document, for 2022, the subsidy for the entire Amtrak Cascades line from Vancouver, BC to Eugene was around 17 million dollars. (Okay, caveat, this is WSDOT data, and is for "Washington Supported Trains Only". But in general, it seems like the money needed to get one airport running partial flights to one destination, and which might not continue for long---is maybe about 10-20% of the money it takes to subsidize a rail line that runs several times a day and carries many more people. Of course, it is an apples to oranges comparison---it is a lot further to travel to Burbank than to Eugene, but a lot of times I think the money that it takes to subsidize air travel becomes invisible to a lot of people.

...feel free to correct me on any math errors I made.

 

[Willbridge]

Sunday, December 3rd - calm before the storm..

Here's the PDX to SEA line-up as of Wednesday night:
0800 FB $29
0820 AT $47/$87
1040 FB $29
1200 AT $66/SO
1230 FB $29
1500 FB $29
1505 AT $52/SO
1556 AT $36/--/$165
1910 FB $29
1925 AT $41/$87
2310 GL $29 (minor time change)

And here's PDX to SPK:
0800 FB $52 via Seattle
0820 AT SO/--/$309 chng at Seattle
0950 FB>GL $46 chng at Pasco
1645 AT $61/--/$211

AT = Amtrak Coach/Business/Sleeper,
FB = Flixbus includes service charge rounded,
GL = Greyhound Lines includes service charge rounded.
SO = Sold Out.

 

[Willbridge]

Sunday, December 17th - first weekend with added Cascades service. Expect that there may be some shuffling around, as previously booked riders may not stick with trains they are reassigned to. Also effective this day, flix takes over SEA<>SPK direct and via Pasco from Greyhound.

Here's the PDX to SEA line-up as of Wednesday night:

0645 AT $26/$87
0800 FB $29
0820 AT $52/$87
1040 FB $49
1040 AT $66/SO
1230 FB $41
1410 AT $66/$87
1500 FB $34
1556 AT $58/--/$210
1755 AT $26/$87
1910 FB $34
1925 AT $26/$87
2310 GL $34

And here's PDX to SPK:

0645 AT SO/--/$376 chng at Seattle
0800 FB $69 via Seattle
0950 FB $52 chng at Pasco
1645 AT $61/--/$266

AT = Amtrak Coach/Business/Sleeper,
FB = Flixbus includes service charge rounded,
GL = Greyhound Lines includes service charge rounded.
SO = Sold Out.

 

[Willbridge]

The Columbian published an article about whether the expanded Cascades service is enough to be a commuter rail option:

https://www.columbian.com/news/2023...commuter-option-from-vancouver-into-portland/The answer is that while it isn't specifically meant to be that, for some commutes, it could be useful, both coming and going.
One thing the article doesn't mention, but that is obvious, is that while the train trip from the Vancouver to Portland stations is very quick, the Vancouver station isn't very accessible from most of Vancouver.

The Vancouver station never had good access. When I was a kid hanging around there they had a sign that told how to walk to the city bus. IIRC, it was almost a half-mile walk. I walked a few times, and since the city line was on a half-hour headway not coordinated with Vancouver-Portland Bus Co. I just walked the rest of the way,

1974 - sometimes city buses made the connection with Vancouver-Portland buses. That's the Evergreen Hotel in right background. In left background, the Greyhound station. Back when it was North Coast Lines, descended from the Seattle<>Tacoma interurban, it had hourly service to Seattle on the Pacific Highway, When this photo was taken, I-5 had bypassed downtown. Greyhound offered 8 daily departures to Seattle, 9 to Portland, and 2 to Yakima, with 1 of those continuing to Ellensburg. Yacolt Stages (or by then, Evergreen) came through on their lines to Yacolt and to Washougal. It was a busy place. We had Seattle Times sales outlets at both the bus station and the hotel.


The Vancouver central business district grew up from the ferry landing. When the Interstate Bridge opened, activity moved a few blocks uptown to the area where the Portland Traction (narrow-gauge) interurban met the Vancouver city streetcars. The photo below was taken at their layover.


The SP&S Vancouver station was part of the Hill lines' assault on Harriman's Portland. Construction of the SP&S and the NP segment from Kalama to Vancouver did not happen until downtown Vancouver was already established. The wye layout of the SP&S yards made it prone to freight train blockades. It was built in a Swiss style because of Hill's interest in Glacier Park (?).

1987 - needed work. The beaver-gnawed tree trunk that I recalled seeing as a kid was still there.

 

[Matthew H Fish]

I found this old map (actually a cartogram) that I made a few years back. I should perhaps update it, since the data is about 10 years old now, but it still is probably mostly accurate as far as the proportions go.
Diagrams like this can easily show data that might take a long time to explain in writing! As far as Amtrak Cascades service goes, the four main stations are in Multnomah, Marion, Linn and Lane counties. (Oregon City is in Clackamas County, but that is a much less frequently used station on the Cascades). And this cartogram explains why: even the counties of the "rural" Willamette Valley are much more populous than the rest of Oregon.
I've mentioned several times that it would be better if Amtrak Cascades service was better integrated with the suburban/exurban areas of the Willamette Valley---but my own map shows why this complaint might be disproportionate. Yamhill, Polk and Benton counties don't have very good access to the Cascades, but as this map shows, they are much smaller than say, Marion County.
Cartograms like this can also be deceptive, because southern Oregon (Douglass, Josephine and Jackson Counties) looks like it is a population center. The thing is, though, those counties are physically much larger. And over rougher terrain.
Also, this map shows why Pioneer service, while it might make a great tourist train, isn't very high up on many people's priority list...look at how "small" the Eastern Oregon counties are on a cartogram like this. Umatilla (Pendleton), the largest population center in Eastern Oregon, would be a small suburban county in the Willamette Valley.

 

[Willbridge]

View attachment 35185
I found this old map (actually a cartogram) that I made a few years back. I should perhaps update it, since the data is about 10 years old now, but it still is probably mostly accurate as far as the proportions go.
Diagrams like this can easily show data that might take a long time to explain in writing! As far as Amtrak Cascades service goes, the four main stations are in Multnomah, Marion, Linn and Lane counties. (Oregon City is in Clackamas County, but that is a much less frequently used station on the Cascades). And this cartogram explains why: even the counties of the "rural" Willamette Valley are much more populous than the rest of Oregon.
I've mentioned several times that it would be better if Amtrak Cascades service was better integrated with the suburban/exurban areas of the Willamette Valley---but my own map shows why this complaint might be disproportionate. Yamhill, Polk and Benton counties don't have very good access to the Cascades, but as this map shows, they are much smaller than say, Marion County.
Cartograms like this can also be deceptive, because southern Oregon (Douglass, Josephine and Jackson Counties) looks like it is a population center. The thing is, though, those counties are physically much larger. And over rougher terrain.
Also, this map shows why Pioneer service, while it might make a great tourist train, isn't very high up on many people's priority list...look at how "small" the Eastern Oregon counties are on a cartogram like this. Umatilla (Pendleton), the largest population center in Eastern Oregon, would be a small suburban county in the Willamette Valley.

On 8½ x 11 scratch maps of Oregon we used to put the legend over southern Harney and Malheur counties, and no one would complain. On the other hand, they had twice daily service via Boise-Winnemucca Stages, as well as Pacific Trailways on US20. And, if you wanted to ride from Lakeview to Burns, don't tell anyone, but the lady who had the postal contract would let you ride with her. All that is left of that is a thin thread of state and federally funded service on US20.

A member of my family works on a mobile dental unit serving rural areas of Oregon. If we can't have the Pioneer or full-service, integrated, bus systems, we need a lot more things that bring services to people.

From reading, it seems likely that a new edition of this good cartogram would show Yamhill and Columbia counties noticeably larger.

 

[fairviewroad]

Polk and Benton counties don't have very good access to the Cascades,

Not quite.

The largest population center in Polk County is the portion of the city of Salem that straddles the county line. That means the largest population center in Polk County is a 5-10 minute drive from the Salem Amtrak station in Marion County. I'd call that good access.

Likewise, a reasonably-large portion of the city of Albany is in Benton County, and furthermore Benton County's largest city, Corvallis, is less than 20 minutes from the Albany Amtrak station by car (and is also served by a bus connection).

The point being, the largest population centers in Polk and Benton Counties have easier access to an Amtrak rail station than a significant portion of the population of Multnomah County, where it's a decent slog from major suburbs to the Amtrak station in downtown Portland.

 

[Matthew H Fish]

Not quite.

The largest population center in Polk County is the portion of the city of Salem that straddles the county line. That means the largest population center in Polk County is a 5-10 minute drive from the Salem Amtrak station in Marion County. I'd call that good access.

Likewise, a reasonably-large portion of the city of Albany is in Benton County, and furthermore Benton County's largest city, Corvallis, is less than 20 minutes from the Albany Amtrak station by car (and is also served by a bus connection).

The point being, the largest population centers in Polk and Benton Counties have easier access to an Amtrak rail station than a significant portion of the population of Multnomah County, where it's a decent slog from major suburbs to the Amtrak station in downtown Portland.

Out of curiosity, which one of the counties do you live in, or have you lived in?

 

[fairviewroad]

Out of curiosity, which one of the counties do you live in, or have you lived in?

I can't make out whether you are challenging my authority to speak on the topic, or whether this is a friendly question. I'll choose to presume the latter, and I apologize if my post came off as pedantic or preachy. I was just trying to speak up for the utility of the Cascades service to those communities. I do like the cartogram: it's a unique and instructive way of looking at the state.

I've lived in the mid-Willamette Valley for the past 16 years and use the Cascades 6-8 times a month. In fact, I'm writing this post aboard train 508.

 

[Willbridge]

Here's the PDX to SEA line-up for Sunday, January 7th as of Wednesday night. Loads are smoothing out between new trips and the old.

0645 AT $32/$60
0800 FB $29
0820 AT $32/$87
1040 FB $29
1040 AT $46/SO
1230 FB $29
1410 AT $66/SO
1500 FB $29
1556 AT $46/--/$165
1755 AT $32/$66
1910 FB $29
1925 AT $32/$87
2310 GL $29

And here's PDX to SPK:

0645 AT $78/$106/$257 chng at Seattle
0800 FB $58 via Seattle
0950 FB $47 chng at Pasco
1645 AT $61/--/$211

AT = Amtrak Coach/Business/Sleeper,
FB = Flixbus includes service charge rounded,
GL = Greyhound Lines includes service charge rounded.
SO = Sold Out.

 

[Matthew H Fish]

I can't make out whether you are challenging my authority to speak on the topic, or whether this is a friendly question. I'll choose to presume the latter, and I apologize if my post came off as pedantic or preachy. I was just trying to speak up for the utility of the Cascades service to those communities. I do like the cartogram: it's a unique and instructive way of looking at the state.

I've lived in the mid-Willamette Valley for the past 16 years and use the Cascades 6-8 times a month. In fact, I'm writing this post aboard train 508.

I am sorry, that sounded a lot crankier than it should have.
The reason I asked it is there are very different answers to someone who is looking at a map, and who has taken the routes.
But in your case, you might use the service differently than I did.
The short answer is, for someone living in Corvallis (like I did), those connections might make sense for someone taking a multiple day trip to a further destination, like Seattle. In a case like that, taking a taxi or the bus from Corvallis to Albany to take the train makes sense. But if someone has a car in Corvallis, or Dallas, or Monmouth, it wouldn't make much sense to drive it to the station, park it, then get on a train to go to Portland or Eugene. In that case, they would just drive directly to Portland or Eugene.
I don't drive, and I spent a lot of time in the cold/rain/dark waiting for that bus from Albany to Corvallis, and also at times, changed my plans because it wasn't a guaranteed connection back.
But also, you are right. And that is one of the points of my post---in areas of Benton and Polk counties that don't have good connections to Amtrak, there are about 100,000 people. Which in one way, is a lot of people, but as the chart shows, still a small amount compared to the population in Lane or Marion counties.

 

[Willbridge]

Here's the PDX to SEA line-up for Sunday, January 21st as of Wednesday night. Assuming that everyone has dug out by then.

0645 AT $26/$85
0800 FB $29
0820 AT $32/$87
1040 FB $29
1040 AT $46/SO
1230 FB $29
1410 AT $52/$87
1500 FB $29
1556 AT $46/--/$165
1755 AT $36/$71
1910 FB $29
1925 AT $32/$60
2310 GL DISCONTINUED

And here's PDX to SPK:

0645 AT $88/$147/$282 chng at Seattle
0800 FB $58 via Seattle
0950 FB $41 chng at Pasco
1645 AT $61/--/$211

AT = Amtrak Coach/Business/Sleeper,
FB = Flixbus includes service charge rounded,
GL = Greyhound Lines includes service charge rounded.
SO = Sold Out.

 

[Matthew H Fish]

Here's the PDX to SEA line-up for Sunday, January 21st as of Wednesday night. Assuming that everyone has dug out by then.

0645 AT $26/$85
0800 FB $29
0820 AT $32/$87
1040 FB $29
1040 AT $46/SO
1230 FB $29
1410 AT $52/$87
1500 FB $29
1556 AT $46/--/$165
1755 AT $36/$71
1910 FB $29
1925 AT $32/$60
2310 GL DISCONTINUED

From this, it looks like the business class tickets fluctuate with demand. I am wondering what business class offer that is worth (in some cases) tripling the ticket price, but obviously, for some people, it is worth it.

 

[Willbridge]

Here's the PDX to SEA line-up for Sunday, February 4th as of Wednesday night.

0645 AT $27/$86
0800 FB $32
0820 AT $33/$87
1040 FB $35
1040 AT $37/$87
1230 FB $36
1410 AT $59/$87
1500 FB $36
1556 AT $46/--/$165
1755 AT $37/$61
1910 FB $34
1925 AT $33/$87
2115 FB $33

And here's PDX to SPK:

0645 AT $90/$149/$284 chng at Seattle
0800 FB $55 via Seattle
0950 FB $43 chng at Pasco
1645 AT $61/--/$211

AT = Amtrak Coach/Business/Sleeper,
FB = Flixbus includes service charge rounded,
SO = Sold Out.

 

[Willbridge]

Here's the PDX to SEA line-up for Sunday, February 25th as of Wednesday night. Note that some train times have been adjusted for the slide repairs. Also note the double-headed 0800 departure on Flix.

0645 AT $27/$87
0800 FB $32
0800 FB $32
0820 AT $27/$87
1040 FB $34
1040 AT $47/SO
1230 FB $34
1350 AT $53/$87
1500 FB $34
1556 AT $66/--/$194
1755 AT $37/$87
1910 FB $35
1925 AT $33/$87
2115 FB $33

And here's PDX to SPK:

0645 AT $90/$150/$285 chng at Seattle
0800 FB $64 via Seattle
0800 FB $64 via Seattle
0950 FB $42 chng at Pasco
1645 AT $76/--/$212

AT = Amtrak Coach/Business/Sleeper,
FB = Flixbus includes service charge rounded,
SO = Sold Out.

 

[Matthew H Fish]

Here's the PDX to SEA line-up for Sunday, February 25th as of Wednesday night. Note that some train times have been adjusted for the slide repairs. Also note the double-headed 0800 departure on Flix.

0645 AT $27/$87
0800 FB $32
0800 FB $32
0820 AT $27/$87
1040 FB $34
1040 AT $47/SO
1230 FB $34
1350 AT $53/$87
1500 FB $34
1556 AT $66/--/$194
1755 AT $37/$87
1910 FB $35
1925 AT $33/$87
2115 FB $33

And here's PDX to SPK:

0645 AT $90/$150/$285 chng at Seattle
0800 FB $64 via Seattle
0950 FB $42 chng at Pasco
1645 AT $76/--/$212

AT = Amtrak Coach/Business/Sleeper,
FB = Flixbus includes service charge rounded,
SO = Sold Out.

Is one of the 0800 Flixbuses rebranded from being a Greyhound, or is it just a doubling of FB service, and is there even a difference between the two anymore?

 

[Willbridge]

Is one of the 0800 Flixbuses rebranded from being a Greyhound, or is it just a doubling of FB service, and is there even a difference between the two anymore?

Greyhound doesn't run this route anymore and it's been a while since they had an 8 a.m. run. This is the Sunday schedule. On weekdays there are runs at 7 and 8.

Both buses stop at Tacoma and Sea-Tac on Sunday. One of them also stops at Olympia. One of them goes to the small Seattle Greyhound station, the other goes to a street stop in the International District that Flix has used since before they took over Greyhound. Both buses continue to Spokane.

The only Greyhound runs left in the Pacific Northwest are Seattle<>Vancouver, BC and Seattle<>Port Angeles. The latter is a subsidized service, so my surmise is that Greyhound is finishing out a contract.

 

[Matthew H Fish]

Greyhound doesn't run this route anymore and it's been a while since they had an 8 a.m. run. This is the Sunday schedule. On weekdays there are runs at 7 and 8.

Both buses stop at Tacoma and Sea-Tac on Sunday. One of them also stops at Olympia. One of them goes to the small Seattle Greyhound station, the other goes to a street stop in the International District that Flix has used since before they took over Greyhound. Both buses continue to Spokane.

The only Greyhound runs left in the Pacific Northwest are Seattle<>Vancouver, BC and Seattle<>Port Angeles. The latter is a subsidized service, so my surmise is that Greyhound is finishing out a contract.

Flixbus's business with Greyhound reminds me of the quote from Jurassic Park "God creates dinosaurs, God destroys dinosaurs. God creates Man, man destroys God. Man creates dinosaurs"
Flixbus buys Greyhound. Greyhound becomes Flixbus. Flixbus destroys Greyhound.
Or something like that.
Is this basically a marketing move, where after decades of bad service, Flixbus has just decided that the Greyhound name is ruined, and so are just switching to Flixbus?

 

[Willbridge]

Here's the PDX to SEA line-up for Sunday, March 3rd as of Wednesday night. Note that some train times have been adjusted for the slide repairs. Also note the double-headed 0800 departure on Flix. Both trips stop at Sea-Tac and Tacoma; one trip also stops in Olympia. Note that a token trip for Kelso and Centralia has been added to the 2115 run, which is coming through from Sacramento. When the last GL trip was discontinued, Kelso and Centralia became rail-only cities for a few weeks.

0645 AT $33/$87
0800 FB $32
0800 FB $32
0820 AT $37/$87
1040 FB $33
1040 AT $59/SO
1230 FB $33
1350 AT $66/SO
1500 FB $33
1556 AT $59/--/$179
1755 AT $42/$87
1910 FB $33
1925 AT $37/$87
2115 FB $33

And here's PDX to SPK:

0645 AT $182/$233/$285 chng at Seattle
0800 FB $74 via Seattle
0800 FB $67 via Seattle
0950 FB $54 chng at Pasco
1645 AT $62/--/$267

AT = Amtrak Coach/Business/Sleeper,
FB = Flixbus includes service charge rounded,
NW = Northwestern Stages (has a one-way SPK>SEA>PDX connection).
SO = Sold Out.

 

[railiner]

Is this basically a marketing move, where after decades of bad service, Flixbus has just decided that the Greyhound name is ruined, and so are just switching to Flixbus?

Except, if I understand it correctly, Flixbus contracts with independent carrier's to operate schedule's, while Greyhound runs them itself...?
Does Flixbus actually own and operate any buses, besides what's left of Greyhound?