Ground Transport in the Pacific Northwest

[railiner]

Wouldn’t it be nice if some enterprise published a national or international transportation guide that showed all ground transportation options between cities?
Could be print or online, with periodic updates.
Could be supported by subscription or ads or both.
I would subscribe…

 

[SubwayNut]

Wouldn’t it be nice if some enterprise published a national or international transportation guide that showed all ground transportation options between cities?
Could be print or online, with periodic updates.
Could be supported by subscription or ads or both.
I would subscribe…

Ideally this is what GTFSs (why you can get Transit directions and times on Google for example,is for) Feeds are for. It's actually a requirement for all transit agencies running fixed route transit to report their GTFS feeds to the Federal Government (through the National Transit Database) strating this year, leading to a lot more transit agencies realizing they need to create feeds.

 

[Willbridge]

Ideally this is what GTFSs (why you can get Transit directions and times on Google for example,is for) Feeds are for. It's actually a requirement for all transit agencies running fixed route transit to report their GTFS feeds to the Federal Government (through the National Transit Database) strating this year, leading to a lot more transit agencies realizing they need to create feeds.

These are private bus companies, not transit agencies.

Seattle to Spokane is run by Flixbus and Northwestern Stages. Flix feeds their info to Google, but the only Northwestern info comes via Amtrak Thruway. So, the night Seattle <> Spokane bus does not show in Google.

 

[JamesWhitcombRiley]

Wouldn’t it be nice if some enterprise published a national or international transportation guide that showed all ground transportation options between cities?
Could be print or online, with periodic updates.
Could be supported by subscription or ads or both.
I would subscribe…

Wanderu is pretty good. For Seattle - Spokane it shows Flix, Northwestern and Amtrak. It overstates frequency the way it does multiple stops within a city though.

 

[Willbridge]

I checked and Wanderu is not showing the night bus run by Northwestern, only the daylight trip which is listed as Amtrak Thruway service. The night bus does show in the Flix/Greyhound reservation system.

In the process of checking this, I discovered that Amtrak was showing the daylight bus for tomorrow morning, May 14 as $97, while the Flix site shows the same trip between the same stations as $47. $97 is the fare between Seattle and Spokane Airport.

My conclusion is that Wanderu is getting its Northwestern Stages info from Amtrak. When I started poking around, I also found other things that would seem weird to a customer, mainly info or lack of it on small operations.

 

[Harmon Shay]

Actually I was wondering. Is there a way to get all the westbound and southbound bus schedules between Seattle and Portland and also the westbound ones between Portland and Spokane? Washington state, of course, has a law that allows subsidies for intercity bus services. At least it did as of the last time I checked. Vancouver, BC to Portland seems pretty much OK for bus service, but the east-west side in Washington and Oregon strikes me as very short of service. I'm trying to make sense of what's already there and what could be subsidized to, say, bring Seattle-Pasco up to at least two round trips-a-day from just one, and possible add Seattle-Ellensburg-Spokane service with transfers in Ellensburg from the Seattle-Pasco route.

 

[Willbridge]

Actually I was wondering. Is there a way to get all the westbound and southbound bus schedules between Seattle and Portland and also the westbound ones between Portland and Spokane? Washington state, of course, has a law that allows subsidies for intercity bus services. At least it did as of the last time I checked. Vancouver, BC to Portland seems pretty much OK for bus service, but the east-west side in Washington and Oregon strikes me as very short of service. I'm trying to make sense of what's already there and what could be subsidized to, say, bring Seattle-Pasco up to at least two round trips-a-day from just one, and possible add Seattle-Ellensburg-Spokane service with transfers in Ellensburg from the Seattle-Pasco route.

If it's just for a study, it can be done by plowing through the internet with dummy itinerary searches. It's slow, because some trips are less than daily. For the reports here, I just show PDX<>SPK as a sample of what is going on east-west.

You're right about east-west service being skimpy. It was affected by discount air fares that killed most trans-continental bus travel (yes, GL used to schedule three buses a day from Chicago to Seattle via US10, plus a fourth express trip in the summer, competing against two daily NP trains).

Recently, Flix added a SEA<>SPK trip with intermediate stops in Moses Lake and Ellensburg. They had one trip doing that to start with, inherited from the last Greyhound. Oh, and Northwestern serves Moses Lake, too, but Flix is at a different gas station.

I don't know the person at WSDOT who handles intercity bus subsidies, but I suspect that Northwestern might be receiving aid for their daylight SEA<>SPK trip, which makes nine intermediate stops and runs via Stevens Pass and is in the Thruway system. And I'm sure that Greyhound is receiving aid for their twice daily runs between Port Angeles and Sea-Tac via King Street Station and the major Seattle hospitals. That one is in the Amtrak Thruway system.

Having followed this through the years, I've come to the conclusion that the best way to get improved intercity bus service is to run good train service. Then someone will try to take business away from it.

BTW, does anyone reading this know of a Flix-branded service that is in the Amtrak Thruway system?

 

[Willbridge]

Here's the PDX to SEA line-up for Sunday, May 19th as of Wednesday night.

0645 AT $37/$87
0700 FB $30
0820 AT $42/$87
0830 FB $31
1040 FB $32
1040 AT $66/SO
1200 FB $32
1410 AT $66/SO
1500 FB $33
1556 AT $50/--/$272
1755 AT $47/$72
1910 FB $33
1925 AT $37/$87
2115 FB $33

And here's PDX to SPK:

0645 AT $100/$150/$310 chng at Seattle
0700 FB $64 via Seattle
0950 FB $45 chng at Pasco
1200 FB $64 via Seattle
1645 AT $62/--/$559
1755 AT/NW $94/$119 chng at Seattle (not a Thruway service)

AT = Amtrak Coach/Business/Sleeper,
FB = Flixbus includes $3.99 service charge rounded,
NW = Northwestern Stages,
SO = Sold Out!

 

[Harmon Shay]

Thanks for the information. I haven't heard of any Flixbus runs in the Amtrak Thruway system. By the way, I'm also a 50-year Amtrak rider (53 now actually). I rode the first Amtrak Empire Builder out of Seattle. As I recall, it was an all-GN consist except for the NP Slumbercoach, possibly the Empire Builder that came in that morning with a few cars added. It also had a Mountain series observation car in place of the regular full-length dome lounge.

 

[Willbridge]

Thanks for the information. I haven't heard of any Flixbus runs in the Amtrak Thruway system. By the way, I'm also a 50-year Amtrak rider (53 now actually). I rode the first Amtrak Empire Builder out of Seattle. As I recall, it was an all-GN consist except for the NP Slumbercoach, possibly the Empire Builder that came in that morning with a few cars added. It also had a Mountain series observation car in place of the regular full-length dome lounge.

By the time I rode it, on my way home from the army, around Labor Day 1971, it was a diverse consist of Northern Lines cars. I know that the leg-rest coach from Chicago was ex-GN, because in the stepwell there was a picture of Rocky, the GN goat, waving and saying, "Welcome Aboard" instead of "Watch Your Step." I just about cried.

 

[Willbridge]

I usually don't check on holidays, but here's the PDX to SEA line-up for Memorial Day Monday, May 27th as of Wednesday night.

0645 AT $27/$86
0700 FB $32
0820 AT $37/SO
0830 FB $32
1040 FB $33
1040 AT $59/SO
1200 FB $33
1410 AT SO/SO
1500 FB $34
1556 AT $66/--/$229
1755 AT $47/$87
1910 FB $33
1925 AT $37/$87
2115 FB $32

And here's PDX to SPK:

0645 AT $74/$133/$339 chng at Seattle
0700 FB $76 via Seattle
0950 FB $54 chng at Pasco
1200 FB $70 via Seattle
1645 AT $62/--/$405
1755 AT+NW [does not operate on MonTueWed] chng at Seattle (not a Thruway service)

AT = Amtrak Coach/Business/Sleeper,
FB = Flixbus includes $3.99 service charge rounded,
NW = Northwestern Stages,
SO = Sold Out!

 

[Willbridge]

Here's the PDX to SEA line-up for Sunday, June 9th as of Wednesday night.

0645 AT $33/$87
0700 FB $31
0820 AT $42/SO
0830 FB $30
1040 FB $33
1040 AT $66/SO
1200 FB $32
1410 AT $59/SO
1500 FB $34
1556 AT $53/--/$249
1755 AT $47/SO
1910 FB $33
1925 AT $42/$87
2115 FB $29 >>> last day a Sunday fare this low was spotted was in October 2023.

And here's PDX to SPK:

0645 AT $116/$170/$377 chng at Seattle
0700 FB $57 via Seattle
0950 FB $45 chng at Pasco
1200 FB $61 via Seattle
1645 AT $62/--/$474
1755 AT+NW $98/SO chng at Seattle (not a Thruway service)

AT = Amtrak Coach/Business/Sleeper,
FB = Flixbus includes $3.99 service charge rounded,
NW = Northwestern Stages,
SO = Sold Out!

 

[Willbridge]

Here's the PDX to SEA line-up for Sunday, June 16th as of Wednesday night. I was going to skip a week or two, but both Amtrak and Flix had schedule changes.

0645 AT $53/SO
0715 FB $33
0830 AT $66/SO
0830 FB $35
1040 FB $49
1040 AT $66/SO
1200 FB <<<<<<<<<<<<discontinued
1410 AT $66/SO
1500 FB $37
1556 AT SO/--/$194
1755 AT $42/$87
1910 FB $35
1925 AT $42/$87
2115 FB $29

And here's PDX to SPK:

0645 AT $163/SO/$306 chng at Seattle
0715 FB $99 via Seattle
0950 FB $62 chng at Pasco
1200 FB <<<<<<<<<<<<discontinued
1645 AT $62/--/$405
1755 AT+NW $89/$134 chng at Seattle (not a Thruway service)

AT = Amtrak Coach/Business/Sleeper,
FB = Flixbus includes $3.99 service charge rounded,
NW = Northwestern Stages,
SO = Sold Out!

 

[Harmon Shay]

This is very much appreciated. I'm trying to do the westbound configuration. It's really a lot of work, and I can't find the sold-out status. But I'm not a computer person either. It's awful what the bus industry puts people through to get basic information. I'm surprised they have any customers left.

 

[Willbridge]

This is very much appreciated. I'm trying to do the westbound configuration. It's really a lot of work, and I can't find the sold-out status. But I'm not a computer person either. It's awful what the bus industry puts people through to get basic information. I'm surprised they have any customers left.

Amtrak, of course, shows Sold Out conspicuously. On Flix/Greyhound they show the Sold Out trips in grey with small red letters saying that the trip is sold out.

Something that will make it easier on Flix from Seattle is that on the left hand side of the screen there's a button labeled "filter" and by clicking it you can toggle boxes to only show departures from the Greyhound station and the Flix curbside stop at 6th Ave S & S Lane St. Some trips stop at both locations.

In studying the Cascades Corridor and some long ago work that I did, it is rare for the buses to sell out by Wednesday. Prior to Amtrak, trains didn't sell out at all, because coaches were unreserved.

I'll be interested in what you learn.

 

[Harmon Shay]

Thanks for the tip on the filter. I notice that but was afraid if I did anything with it I'd lose control of everything.

 

[Willbridge]

A couple of Flixbus notes...

Elimination of the Noon PDX>SEA trip has resulted in high Sunday fares on the adjacent 1040 and 1500 trips that are comparable to Amtrak coach fares for the 1040 and 1410 trains. For Sunday, July 7th, both of those trains are sold out.

For some reason, Medford-Ashland once again is not served by either the daily overnight PDX<>SAC run or the five days a week daylight SEA<>SAC trip. Here is the stop pattern between PDX and SAC:

FLIXBUS schedule 7 Jul 24

SACRAMENTO > PORTLAND
........................ ExWeTh.....Daily
Sacramento.......0900.....2045
Oroville................@..........@
Chico....................@..........@
Red Bluff..............|.............@
Redding...............|.............@
Weed....................M...........|
Medford..............|..............|
Grants Pass........@...........|
Roseburg............@..........@
Eugene................@..........@
Corvallis...............|............@
Salem....................|............@
Portland..............@..........@

PORTLAND > SACRAMENTO
........................ ExTuWe.....Daily
Portland...........0915......1925
Salem...................|..............@
Corvallis..............|...............@
Eugene..............@.............@
Roseburg..........@.............@
Grants Pass......@...............|
Medford.............|.................|
Weed..................M...............|
Redding.............@.............@
Red Bluff.............|...............@
Chico...................@.............@
Oroville...............@.............@
Sacramento.......@.............@

Symbols:

@ = Stop
M = Meal stop
| = Not a stop
Ex = Except

 

[Harmon Shay]

Seems to me it's long past time for government intervention to try to rationalize and maybe even re-expand in some cases the intercity bus business, under private operation or otherwise, and to do something about bus stations. I mean, the Tacoma, Washington Flixbus station is now the curb just beyond a Pierce Transit bus stop near Tacoma Dome Station next to a U-Haul lot and it isn't even marked, except for a generic "bus load only" sign. Really? There is at least parking in the adjacent Pierce Transit garage, but that's only for a 24-hour maximum, and it's not really supposed to be for Flixbus customers.

 

[Willbridge]

When we did the 1975 Oregon Intercity Bus Study, there were people who had been around in the early, unregulated days who could tell you what was wrong before the PUC's and ICC were imposed on the industry. That was my dad's generation. He lived to be 100, so at the end of his life he experienced some of what subsequent generations have seen of the downside of deregulation.

He had long ago taken the position that there needs to be a middle ground so that there is some stability, civility and without Greyhound bullying others. At the same time, carriers need freedom to experiment, and states need to organize basic "lifeline" routes that won't suddenly disappear.

A retired ODOT colleague and I were recalling how fast we got things done during the 1973-75 Energy Crisis. It occurred to us that the intercity bus industry won't get attention until there is a crisis of some sort.

For younger readers: most states did not regulate bus routes and service until the mid-1920's and interstate routes and service were not regulated until the Federal Motor Carrier Act of 1935. Regulated carriers, like railways, experienced drastic losses in traffic, but were expected to provide the lifeline service. Cities struggled with terminal issues. Main lines were served by multiple companies that were not coordinated. Today's situation is not quite the same, thanks to computers and driver shortages and safety requirements.

 

[Willbridge]

Here's the PDX to SEA line-up for Sunday, July 14th as of Wednesday night. Happy Bastille Day!

0645 AT $42/$87
0715 FB $31
0830 AT $59/$87
0830 FB $32
1040 AT $42/$87
1040 FB $46
1410 AT SO/SO
1500 FB $61
1556 AT SO/--/$249
1755 AT $66/$87
1910 FB $33
1925 AT $53/SO
2115 FB $32

And here's PDX to SPK:

0645 AT $152/$197/$285 chng at Seattle
0715 FB $68 via Seattle
0950 FB $53 chng at Pasco
1645 AT $76/--/$267
1755 AT+NW $113/$140 chng at Seattle (not a Thruway service)

AT = Amtrak Coach/Business/Sleeper,
FB = Flixbus includes $3.99 service charge rounded,
NW = Northwestern Stages,
SO = Sold Out!

 

[Willbridge]

Here's the PDX to SEA line-up for Sunday, August11th as of Wednesday night.

0645 AT $47/$87
0715 FB $32
0830 AT $53/SO
0830 FB $30
1040 AT $36/SO
1040 FB $36
1410 AT SO/SO
1500 FB $33
1556 AT SO/--/$211
1755 AT $59/SO
1910 FB $32
1925 AT $47/$87
2115 FB $29

And here's PDX to SPK:

0645 AT SO/SO/$310 chng at Seattle
0715 FB $81 via Seattle
0950 FB $65 chng at Pasco
1040 AT SO/SO/$281 chng at Seattle
1645 AT $62/--/$237
1755 AT+NW $106/SO chng at Seattle (not a Thruway service)

AT = Amtrak Coach/Business/Sleeper,
FB = Flixbus includes $3.99 service charge rounded,
NW = Northwestern Stages,
SO = Sold Out!

 

[Willbridge]

Here's the PDX to SEA line-up for Monday, September 2nd, Labor Day as of Wednesday night. This doesn't look as strong as some other holidays, possibly because school starts are so widely distributed compared to the "goodolddays."

0645 AT $37/$87
0715 FB $32 > to SPK
0830 AT $47/SO
0830 FB $30 > to VAC
1040 AT $66/SO > from EUG
1040 FB $36
1410 AT SO/SO > to VAC
1500 FB $30 > to VAC
1556 AT SO/--/$106 > from LAX
1755 AT $47/$87
1910 FB $32
1925 AT $37/$87 > from EUG
2115 FB $33 > from SAC

And here's PDX to SPK:

0645 AT $184/$234/$286 chng at Seattle
0715 FB $75 via Seattle
0950 FB $58 chng at Pasco
1040 AT $219/SO/$265 chng at Seattle
1645 AT $63/--/$305
1755 AT+NW $94/$134 chng at Seattle (not a Thruway service)

AT = Amtrak Coach/Business/Sleeper,
FB = Flixbus includes $3.99 service charge rounded,
NW = Northwestern Stages,
SO = Sold Out!

 

[Willbridge]

After the Labor Day week, Flix discontinued the "daylight" SEA<>PDX<>SAC trips that ran weekends. It shows above as the 2115 (last) trip PDX>SEA. Southbound it departed SEA at 0600. These were the only trips that stopped in Kelso-Longview and Centralia.

This also provided service to Southern Oregon (Siskiyou Line) points. The single PDX<>SAC trip remaining each way, overnight, runs non-stop on the section between EUG and RDD, which does make for better sleeping.

 

[Willbridge]

Here's the PDX to SEA line-up for Sunday, September 22nd, as of Wednesday night. There is a 1305 Seahawks game start for that day, so yesterday, Tuesday, many Amtrak trips were sold out. Today, Wednesday, Coach fares are back to typical, but Business Class still looks like a game day! Did Amtrak add coaches late in the game? Flix had added a trip tagged as Greyhound, and all trips showed stiff fares. Today, that's still the case.

In added weirdness, the ghost of Greyhound will make stops that Flix has not made, in Kelso-Longview and Centralia. Presumably, their computer is still set up for the discontinued 2115 trip's pattern.

0645 AT $27/SO
0715 FB $81
0830 AT $33/SO
0830 FB $88
1040 AT $37/SO
1040 FB $88
1325 GL $81
1410 AT $47/SO
1500 FB $96
1556 AT $66/--/$166
1755 AT $59/$87
1910 FB $32
1925 AT $37/$87

And here's PDX to SPK:

0645 AT SO/SO/$226 chng at Seattle
0715 FB $92 via Seattle
0950 FB $49 chng at Pasco
1040 AT SO/SO/$236 chng at Seattle
1645 AT $77/--/$560
1755 AT+NW $106/SO chng at Seattle (not a Thruway service)

AT = Amtrak Coach/Business/Sleeper,
FB = Flixbus includes $3.99 service charge rounded,
GL = Yes, Greyhound Lines (the ghost of service passed)
NW = Northwestern Stages,
SO = Sold Out!

 

[Willbridge]

Here's the PDX to SEA line-up for Sunday, October 20th as of Wednesday night. Amtrak has notched up the top Business Class fare from $87 to $90.

0645 AT $33/$90
0715 FB $36
0830 AT $42/SO
0830 FB $33
1040 AT $66/SO
1040 FB $32
1410 AT SO/SO
1500 FB $36
1556 AT $59/--/$119
1755 AT $53/$90
1910 FB $31
1925 AT $42/$90

And here's PDX to SPK:

0645 AT $180/$237/$289 chng at Seattle
0715 FB $146 via Seattle
0950 FB $46 chng at Pasco
1040 AT {not shown} chng at Seattle
1645 AT $63/--/$268
1755 AT+NW $108/$145 chng at Seattle (not a Thruway service)

AT = Amtrak Coach/Business/Sleeper,
FB = Flixbus includes $3.99 service charge rounded,
NW = Northwestern Stages,
SO = Sold Out!