Habitual Amtrak ticket Scammer in LA Union station.

[BCL]

There are a lot of people at LAUS who are not train passengers...homeless or otherwise. There are non-passengers there who have a legitimate right to be there (they work nearby at Metro or the Metropolitan Water District HQ or simply stopping by for a drink at Traxx) Where do you start?

Someone run off the property will just show up again.

Well yeah. However, I'm thinking where there's been a specific crime alleged, and where a judge has signed a specific retraining order against someone. The idea is that such a person could be removed on sight on the basis of previous actions.

I looked it up, and LA Metro does have stay away orders that apply to their entire system. I suppose they own LA Union Station, so that would apply there.

http://clkrep.lacity.org/onlinedocs/2018/18-0245_misc_06-29-2018.pdf

There's this serial stowaway who repeatedly tries to board planes without a ticket. She's gotten stay away orders at several airports, although apparently one of the exceptions is if she has a ticket. However, I'm thinking of something such as the LA Metro report where they say that people have a stay away order from the entire system.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/18/us/serial-stowaway-marilyn-hartman-fitness-hearing/index.html

 

[RSG]

There are a lot of people at LAUS who are not train passengers...homeless or otherwise. There are non-passengers there who have a legitimate right to be there (they work nearby at Metro or the Metropolitan Water District HQ or simply stopping by for a drink at Traxx) Where do you start?

Someone run off the property will just show up again.

Making control more difficult, Metro is actively working to make Union Station a "social" destination by hosting and promoting activities that, frankly, have nothing to do with rail travel or commuting.

"Metro acquired the station in 2011, managing the property that currently serves as a transportation hub for Metro, Metrolink, Amtrak and other transportation services as well an urban mixed-use development site. Adjacent downtown Los Angeles and El Pueblo, the stations’ close proximity to the Los Angeles Civic Center, Chinatown, Little Tokyo, the Arts District, Los Angeles River and Boyle Heights make it a favorite stop for Los Angeles visitors and locals alike."

https://www.metro.net/about/union-station/

(I pass through LAUS twice a day on my daily commute)

I think you've inadvertently explained why SoCal in general and LA in particular have the homeless and recent public health issues they do. The defeatist attitude that says "if we run them off they'll just come back" is part of the problem. There are laws against loitering and solicitation and creating a nuisance, along with penalties for each of those offenses. But if no one is willing to enforce the laws which already exist (for whatever reason), then they are useless.

In any event, it doesn't take an FBI profiler to gauge who has a legitimate right to be in a public space and who does not. Once that has been established, those who are running scams or engaging in other inappropriate behaviors can be trespassed from the property and sanctioned if they violate the prohibition. In the old days, that was more difficult, but with ever-present security cameras and facial recognition software, those that are on the radar can be identified within a few minutes of coming on to the property. But that requires a willingness to enforce existing laws as well as codes of conduct and to follow through with those who violate them. It also helps if the elected officials who are in charge of the overall situation spend more time doing their current job than running for another job that they'd apparently rather have.

 

[calwatch]

The roped off area at Union Station is supposed to be for passengers only though and depending on the diligence of the security guard, they will check, although it is usually triggered by someone who looks like they don't have enough train fare. But if they are bugging people at the standing tables, then the best thing to do is to say no. I will occasionally lend folks cell phones, since I know people sometimes lose them or have no charge, but I will dial the number for them and put them on speaker. If there is a genuine issue, then they won't mind.

 

[Anderson]

I once ran into a variation of this in Atlanta...a guy came up, asking for money for a Greyhound ticket to Columbia, SC for a funeral. I responded by pulling up the Greyhound website on my phone and offering to buy a non-refundable ticket there. He hesitated a surprisingly long time before bolting...I don't think he'd run into that response before.

With all of this being said, can someone say why the security theatre excuse is given instead of just point blank saying "There's been a problem with scalping"? I'm to the point that, all else being equal, obtrusive security basically gets a look of disgust from me...but I'm also about six standard deviations out of the norm here, I guess. Not to mention that with Quik-Trak machines and the like, it is quite plausible that the ID requirement will never come up in the course of travel, especially on busier routes where the conductor can't spend ten minutes waiting for a half-dozen pax to dig out their licenses.

 

[Anderson]

The roped off area at Union Station is supposed to be for passengers only though and depending on the diligence of the security guard, they will check, although it is usually triggered by someone who looks like they don't have enough train fare. But if they are bugging people at the standing tables, then the best thing to do is to say no. I will occasionally lend folks cell phones, since I know people sometimes lose them or have no charge, but I will dial the number for them and put them on speaker. If there is a genuine issue, then they won't mind.

I'm usually willing to lend a phone if asked. I'll also buy food if asked. I've been in a lost-cell-phone situation more than once, so I'm inclined to buy that, and if someone needs a snack of some sort...well, that's something I can totally get. It's at least less prone to being scammed.

 

[caravanman]

I am genuinely shocked by some of the attitudes here! Do you really want to lock up more people just for asking for money, for being on your radar?

America has 5% of the worlds population, yet has 25% of all prisoners. One in 100 Americans are in prison!

Yes, it may be against "the laws" to beg, but maybe if "the laws" were made by the poorer people, that might not be so...

https://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/23/world/americas/23iht-23prison.12253738.html

Ed.

 

[Triley]

Anyway, on a more related note...

You could probably call APD and let them know about it, that you've seen this several times, what they're wearing at the time and where exactly they are. Perhaps if the order comes down from dispatch they'll be more likely to respond.

And not that they'll do anything about begging for money, but rather about the fraud they're committing with the tickets. Amtrak Police will issue bulletins about known problem childs in a specific area to stations and crews as necessary.

 

[jcs]

I understand it would be difficult to deal with such persons loitering in the station , though if turnstiles are put in to ticketed areas it may help a little. We would need less of the useless security monitors who often gives legit travelers an attitude for trying to relax on a chair. Of course I know scammers can still gather at ticketing areas to lure unsuspecting people.

If LA wants to redevelop the station they should really learn from others around the world. The station has so many issues with access from either west or East side these days. They should build the concourse and drop off area right above the tracks. With ticketing north of the tracks. Use the lower level tunnel for utility traffic and carts so they dont recklessly speed/weave between passenger traffic.

I can understand that banning someone from transit do present a major civil rightsissues as you prevent him maybe their only way from getting around. In reality Its not the person but his actions when he is there. Its not simple begging but actual ticket fraud with witness. If enough people report him, they should set up a sting should he ask for money using his story, try to return a ticket, or at least warn unsuspecting travelers. Deception should not be confused with freedom of speech. Though its best he is made to give money back as opposed to to fine or jail which would only hurt taxpayers more.

In China they are clear that the ID to buy I to buy tickets its due to sculpting, the security aspect is handled by increased guards monitoring and bag X-ray for everyone entering the platform. I can see that Amtrak is trying to avoid those who buy large amounts of tickets at low bucket price thus driving prices higher. And they profit by selling tickets lower than the website but still significantly higher than the low bucket price. This is not an issued faced with commuter lines like Metrolink or coaster where ticket prices are always fixed.

 

[Bob Dylan]

I am genuinely shocked by some of the attitudes here! Do you really want to lock up more people just for asking for money, for being on your radar?

America has 5% of the worlds population, yet has 25% of all prisoners. One in 100 Americans are in prison!

Yes, it may be against "the laws" to beg, but maybe if "the laws" were made by the poorer people, that might not be so...

https://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/23/world/americas/23iht-23prison.12253738.html

Ed.

This!

 

[Alexandria Nick]

There's a difference between the odd beggar and someone that's actively defrauding or harassing people.

 

[HP_Lovecraft]

America has 5% of the worlds population, yet has 25% of all prisoners. One in 100 Americans are in prison!

I'm not sure if the European model of having most of the criminal element exist in "no go zones" is an improvement. Though about 50% of our prisoners are in for drug-related offensives which seems pointless and unnecessary Hasnt seemed to deter drug use..

 

[caravanman]

America has 5% of the worlds population, yet has 25% of all prisoners. One in 100 Americans are in prison!

I'm not sure if the European model of having most of the criminal element exist in "no go zones" is an improvement. Though about 50% of our prisoners are in for drug-related offensives which seems pointless and unnecessary Hasnt seemed to deter drug use..

Not sure what you mean by that statement about no go zones?

Is fleecing a few dollars for a bogus train ticket such a massive crime that it needs draconian reactions here?

There will be a need to remove dangerous and violent offenders to prison, I get that... Locking up folk for begging or "being a scam nuiscance" seems pretty harsh to me. A period in jail is not the best way to free the land of people who are living in poverty.

Ed.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Fact: it costs more per prisoner to keep them locked up in Prisons than it does to send them to Harvard, and also to fund Mental Health and Addiction programs that are always what the current Crop of so called "leaders" cut in every budget!

 

[Ryan]

Not sure what you mean by that statement about no go zones?

It's some BS made up right wing propaganda they conjured up to stoke the fuel of hate against the "other".

 

[chakk]

You wouldn't believe the number of guys I've run into in downtown Chicago claiming they need money to get back home to Joliet (or some other place). Just keep moving.

If they keep this up, they just might wind up with a long stay in Joliet. Might get the same room that the Blues Brothers had.

 

[caravanman]

If someone asks me for money, I can say yes or no. If that person cashes in a ticket I bought them, where is the big crime?

Train life is full of petty annoyances, such as cancelled trains, poor staff, duff food, expensive sleepers, etc, etc...

One can say yes or no to a scammer, and just move on, no need to get hot under the collar or call the cops, methinks.

Ed.

 

[lthanlon]

Scammers and panhandlers are not the harmless annoyances that many claim. They're like graffiti. If not removed, graffiti breeds more graffiti — and creates a perception of danger.

(Edited)

 

[tp49]

If the station operator doesn't want the guy there because of his activities they can have their police agency issue the scammer a trespass order which subjects him to arrest if he returns. I'm guessing since he's known to security, and it's hasn't been done yet (to our knowledge), that it's not Metro's (the station owner's) highest priority.

 

[Steve4031]

I simply say no as soon as I realize they are asking for money. If they continue by being rude or aggressive I call the police.

I dealt with one clown in Portland Oregon like this. He approached me while I was purchasing a transit ticket for transit from a machine. This irritates me because I’m trying to watch my luggage, surroundings and follow the prompts on the screen. As soon as he spoke I said “no”. He was in a wheelchair with a dog. He started cussing. I told him he had the choice to shut up and leave, or I would call the police. He actually started to get out of his chair so I hit 911 and called. He wandered down the block. I got on the next street car and then saw a cop car driving down the street to check things out.

People have the right to ask for money and I have the right to quickly disengage and say no. Anything they do after that that annoys me is considered an escalation and will be treated as such.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I think you've inadvertently explained why SoCal in general and LA in particular have the homeless and recent public health issues they do. The defeatist attitude that says "if we run them off they'll just come back" is part of the problem. There are laws against loitering and solicitation and creating a nuisance, along with penalties for each of those offenses. But if no one is willing to enforce the laws which already exist (for whatever reason), then they are useless.

From what I've read much of the current homeless problem can be traced back to the time of (governor and president) Reagan pushed for wholesale defunding and dismantling of the long term mental health industry. I think many people would agree that there were a lot of problems with how that particular industry was run and regulated, but by choosing not to replace it with anything better a new problem of rampant homelessness and perpetual incarceration was born.

 

[montana mike]

I think you've inadvertently explained why SoCal in general and LA in particular have the homeless and recent public health issues they do. The defeatist attitude that says "if we run them off they'll just come back" is part of the problem. There are laws against loitering and solicitation and creating a nuisance, along with penalties for each of those offenses. But if no one is willing to enforce the laws which already exist (for whatever reason), then they are useless.

From what I've read much of the current homeless problem can be traced back to the time of (governor and president) Reagan pushed for wholesale defunding and dismantling of the long term mental health industry. I think many people would agree that there were a lot of problems with how that particular industry was run and regulated, but by choosing not to replace it with anything better a new problem of rampant homelessness and perpetual incarceration was born.

I travel to the west coast often and SoCal on occasion and this major issue has only gotten bad in the past five years or so. Blaming this on Reagan from over 40 years ago is silly. Just looking at the people who are causing these issues, and I was just in Seattle several weeks ago and saw these problems in WA first hand again, almost all are between 18 and 35 years old, some of whom were openly shooting up on drugs in the middle of the day on the sidewalks in downtown Seattle. The police finally stepped in, after several of the addicts began going after people walking along the sidewalks. Not the "traditional" down and out old guy or gal who was a refugee from a mental hospital or a chronic drunk by any stretch of the imagination. Granted I am looking at a small sampling of people in my travels, but I didn't see any "drunks" or open or empty liquor bottles, just lots of needles and drugs. And what I saw in the heart of Seattle in the middle of the day was virtually the same as I witnessed in LA and SF. As much of a rail fan as I am, I think California's billions would have been much more wisely spent on helping these really sad examples of humanity, rather than building the HSR to nowhere.

 

[Ryan]

Scammers and panhandlers are not the harmless annoyances that many claim. They're like graffiti. If not removed, graffiti breeds more graffiti — and creates a perception of danger.

(Edited)

Oh no! Not a perception of danger! Nothing is worse than that!

 

[leemell]

I think you've inadvertently explained why SoCal in general and LA in particular have the homeless and recent public health issues they do. The defeatist attitude that says "if we run them off they'll just come back" is part of the problem. There are laws against loitering and solicitation and creating a nuisance, along with penalties for each of those offenses. But if no one is willing to enforce the laws which already exist (for whatever reason), then they are useless.

From what I've read much of the current homeless problem can be traced back to the time of (governor and president) Reagan pushed for wholesale defunding and dismantling of the long term mental health industry. I think many people would agree that there were a lot of problems with how that particular industry was run and regulated, but by choosing not to replace it with anything better a new problem of rampant homelessness and perpetual incarceration was born.

 

[leemell]

Reagan did not start this, but continued what the American Psychiatric Association and Congress started in the 50's. Here is a very good article by the NY Times on the history of what was called "mainstreaming" mental patients. https://www.nytimes.com/1984/10/30/science/how-release-of-mental-patients-began.html

 

[leemell]

I think you've inadvertently explained why SoCal in general and LA in particular have the homeless and recent public health issues they do. The defeatist attitude that says "if we run them off they'll just come back" is part of the problem. There are laws against loitering and solicitation and creating a nuisance, along with penalties for each of those offenses. But if no one is willing to enforce the laws which already exist (for whatever reason), then they are useless.

From what I've read much of the current homeless problem can be traced back to the time of (governor and president) Reagan pushed for wholesale defunding and dismantling of the long term mental health industry. I think many people would agree that there were a lot of problems with how that particular industry was run and regulated, but by choosing not to replace it with anything better a new problem of rampant homelessness and perpetual incarceration was born.

I travel to the west coast often and SoCal on occasion and this major issue has only gotten bad in the past five years or so. Blaming this on Reagan from over 40 years ago is silly. Just looking at the people who are causing these issues, and I was just in Seattle several weeks ago and saw these problems in WA first hand again, almost all are between 18 and 35 years old, some of whom were openly shooting up on drugs in the middle of the day on the sidewalks in downtown Seattle. The police finally stepped in, after several of the addicts began going after people walking along the sidewalks. Not the "traditional" down and out old guy or gal who was a refugee from a mental hospital or a chronic drunk by any stretch of the imagination. Granted I am looking at a small sampling of people in my travels, but I didn't see any "drunks" or open or empty liquor bottles, just lots of needles and drugs. And what I saw in the heart of Seattle in the middle of the day was virtually the same as I witnessed in LA and SF. As much of a rail fan as I am, I think California's billions would have been much more wisely spent on helping these really sad examples of humanity, rather than building the HSR to nowhere.

Not a train to nowhere even in it's very first link from Bakersfield to Fresno --- 9th and 5th largest cities in California. Second link Bakersfield to San Jose.