Hiawatha discussion

[OmahaRoad]

I don't recall hearing anything that Borealis replacing a Hiawatha trip was only temporary, and my assumption was that when an 8th CHI-MKE-CHI trip was someday added it would be at an entirely new time and Borialis would continue to leave CHI at 11:05 and return into CHI at 19:14. Obviously it had to use a Hiawatha slot to start service before CPCK allowed an additional train, of course. But it's interesting to think that the plan is to move it. I would be surprised it if was moved by more than 1-3 hours.

Yes, this is very interesting and honestly pretty shocking to me! The Borealis was sold to MN folks (advocates, residents, and politicians alike) with the current departure times, times that have been advertised as appropriately offsetting the Empire Builder's arrival/departure times.

In particular, the earlier arrival in St. Paul is important and something that a lot of people are loving about the Borealis. I agree, Moselman, that it would be very surprising for the Borealis to be significantly moved. I would guess if they DO move it (which I really hope they do not), that it is only moved by 1 to 1.5 hours. Or I guess that is my hope. I really, really wonder how MN stakeholders feel about this, because I can't imagine they were expecting this?! We shall see what transpires I guess.

 

[Steve's Wanderlust]

Living in metro MSP I'd really prefer a morning trip at 6am prior to the Builder's slot, the midday/late morning train could move an hour earlier or later - that matters less to me as that train has only one good connection in Chicago (Lake Shore Ltd.).

 

[user535733]

Yes, this is very interesting and honestly pretty shocking to me! The Borealis was sold to MN folks (advocates, residents, and politicians alike) with the current departure times, times that have been advertised as appropriately offsetting the Empire Builder's arrival/departure times.

In particular, the earlier arrival in St. Paul is important and something that a lot of people are loving about the Borealis. I agree, Moselman, that it would be very surprising for the Borealis to be significantly moved. I would guess if they DO move it (which I really hope they do not), that it is only moved by 1 to 1.5 hours. Or I guess that is my hope. I really, really wonder how MN stakeholders feel about this, because I can't imagine they were expecting this?! We shall see what transpires I guess.

When WisDOT said the future schedule was "TBD," they meant exactly that. Not worse. Not better. TBD.

All the stakeholders in all three states have a voice, and plenty of time to use it. I have found that the DOT civil servants to be competent, well-informed on the issues, and fully aware of the factors that have made the service successful. While somewhat constrained, they have clearly shown the right priorities. In the past, they did well negotiating with Amtrak and CPKC.

 

[Amtrak Eddie]

Two notable updates on Hiawatha Service.

(1) Business class is now offered on the 8:05am southbound and the 8:05pm northbound. That appears to be by virtue of the Borealis trainset spending the night in Milwaukee, the westbound Borealis trainset running MKE-CHI-MKE-MSP in the AM, the eastbound Borealis trainset doing MSP-MKE-CHI-MKE in the PM. I wonder if the cafe is staffed on the Hiawatha leg? It is staffed on the Borealis segment between CHI-MKE / MKE-CHI. Nice to have two of seven daily round trips with business class and (perhaps both) with cafe. I'd think there's a decent chance that expansion to MSN and/or GRB would mean a cafe car so perhaps eventually all MKE-CHI will have onboard service and business class.

(2) Wisconsin received $72.8m in federal funding toward the Muskego Yards project in Milwaukee, new track permitting freights to bypass the Milwaukee Internmodal Station and ancillary improvements including five bridge replacements. This project is one of the prerequisites for Hiawatha expansion, both additional MKE-CHI trains and extnesion of CHI-MKE to Madison and/or Green Bay.

https://urbanmilwaukee.com/pressrel...nearly-73-million-for-milwaukee-rail-project/

Some 5-6 years back attemps to add more Hiawtha trips were squashed by some north shore Chicago burbs blocking a proposed siding which would destory their quality of life and make their properties worthless (paraphrasing ) However in documents / stories floating around when CP + KCS merger was being discussed it appeared they were open to added frequencies without that specific siding. If I recall correctly the key requirements were the Muskego Yards project, the dual-track platform expansion of Milwaukee Airport Rail Station, and improvements in Lake Forest areas described as "universal crossover" or "double crossover". Anybody have any information more contemporary / comprehensive than "the burbs said no to the siding, so no additional trains" which was 5 1/2 years ago?

In the March 15 2023 EB Surface Transportation Board Decision doc (the link below should download it) it sounds like Amtrak's part of the green light for CPKS merger included more Hiawathas The passage below is from page 139

https://dcms-external.s3.amazonaws.com/DCMS_External_PROD/1678885209922/51549.pdf

CPKC will permit Amtrak to add additional or new passenger rail service on certainCPKC-owned lines, specifically (1) the CP-owned portion of the Hiawatha route betweenChicago and Milwaukee, (2) the CP-owned lines between Chicago and Minneapolis-St.Paul, (3) the KCS-owned lines between New Orleans and Baton Rouge, and (4) the CPowned Detroit River Tunnel between Detroit and Windsor, Ontario, (id., Ex. CP-AmtrakAgreement, paras. 1-4);

So maybe with Musego Yards and the expansion of the MARS platform the Hiawatha can add an 8th, 9th and 10th trip? It all takes time and funding of course, but expansion to 10 trips has been in the works for more than a decade.

I just rode on those trains & the cafe cars are not staffed on the 8:05 runs between Chi-Mke due to the short distance.

 

[moselman66]

Obviously something of a fantasy b

I just rode on those trains & the cafe cars are not staffed on the 8:05 runs between Chi-Mke due to the short distance.

Thanks for the first-hand report! You did not happen to notice if there were five regular coaches + business/cafe, or just four coaches + business/cafe, did you? If I'm not mistaken more Hiawathas were running with the 5th coach.

Can't say I'm surprised to have the business/cafe care but the cafe closed on the Hiawatha as it would likely mean more funding and not something which would just show up. Eventual Hiawatha extenstion to Madison and Green Bay could mean staffed cafe cars on more MKE-CHI/CHI-MKE trips. But it seems pretty unlikely there will ever be a stand-alone spending initiative to support cafe service on the existing Hiawatha trips.