Inward Facing "Cab Cameras" to be installed

[Ryan]

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2015/05/26/amtrak-install-cameras/

WASHINGTON (CBSNewYork/AP) Amtrak says it will install video cameras inside locomotive cabs that record the actions of train engineers. The move follows a deadly derailment earlier this month in which investigators are searching for clues to the train engineers actions just before the crash.

I'm torn on this. In a perfect world, where the footage is only accessed in the event of an accident, where the data can help get to the bottom of what actually happened.

That said, we don't live in that perfect world, and if management is going to be able to review the footage whenever they please, it'll make it trivial for them to get rid of anyone they don't like - observe someone for long enough and you'll find something you can gig 'em for. I wouldn't be comfortable with a camera following me around the office doing my job, that' for sure.

 

[Headache]

I was waiting for something like this to happen. It's too bad they won't go the way the airlines do with the two black boxes but I also see a side intention(and I'm speculating): the more money they spend on safety the more they can justify asking for and possibly get some of it from Congress.

 

[Ryan]

They already have the equivalent of one of the "black boxes" (flight data/event recorder).

The other one (cockpit voice recorder) wouldn't be terribly useful with just one person in the cab. You'd get ambient noises, which would be something, I guess.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Is this another "unfunded mandate" for Amtrak from Big Brother?

Guess the bean counters at 60 Mass will have to make some more nickel and dime cuts to the Sleepers to help pay for these cameras! They're not cheap!

Maybe the Union can get it in the contract that said footage can only be used in the event of an accident or rules violation?

Even here in Kooky Conservative Texas the Courts have ruled that Red Light Cameras can't be used to issue tickets!

 

[fairviewroad]

In some cases these cameras may be the only way for an engineer to prove that s/he didn't do something wrong. Lots of people

have cameras trained on them at the workplace...bus drivers, bank tellers, convenience store clerks, and TV news anchors to

name a few. [OK, that last one is in a different category...]

Of course, I wouldn't want a camera watching me while I'm working.

 

[jis]

Without taking any position on the pro or con of this, I just note that NTSB has been asking for this for a while now. They have asked for the same in airline cockpits for a while too but FAA appears to have resisted, facing opposition from ALPA, since they could not find a pressing need for it and could not come up with a persuasive example of an accident for which the cockpit camera would have been indispensable to reach a conclusion about what happened. Although one could argue that something like the Egyptair crash could be such an example for reaching a conclusion much more definitively.

 

[KmH]

Being partly responsible for the lives of the train passengers, I don't think the engineers, nor their union(s), have any platform they can stand on to fight inward facing cameras in passenger train locomotives.

This story says engineer morale is an issue. I say BS - if you want to be an engineer on a passenger train, and if the unions, FRA, and NTSB are serious about transportation safety.

Unions representing engineers at Amtrak and other passenger and freight railroads have generally opposed use of the cameras. As recently as 2012, railroad administration officials had also opposed requiring the cameras, telling NTSB they were concerned the cameras might lower employee morale and the images might be used punitively by railroads."

 

[afigg]

Amtrak news release on the policy change to install cameras in the cab: Amtrak To Begin Installation Of Inward-Facing Cameras In Locomotives.

WASHINGTON – Taking an additional measure to improve safety, Amtrak will install inward-facing video cameras in the fleet of ACS-64 locomotives in service on the Northeast Corridor by the end of 2015, and all subsequently delivered locomotives will have the equipment installed before they go into service.

These systems will be another tool for Amtrak and industry regulators to monitor locomotive and engineer performance.

“Inward-facing video cameras will help improve safety and serve as a valuable investigative tool,” said Amtrak President & CEO Joe Boardman. “We have tested these cameras and will begin installation as an additional measure to enhance safety.”

Installation will first occur in the 70 ACS-64 locomotives that will power all Northeast Regional and long-distance trains between Washington, New York and Boston, as well as Keystone Service between New York, Philadelphia and Harrisburg, Pa. Amtrak is developing a plan for installation of inward-facing cameras in the rest of its locomotive fleet, including Acela Express power cars and diesel locomotives.

Amtrak has outward-facing cameras on locomotives, along with advanced systems that monitor locomotive and engineer actions.

 

[The Journalist]

The article doesn't specify if these cameras would record audio full-time as well. On some transit buses, internal cameras are video-only unless one of a few specific events occur, which turns on audio for a limited period of time.

 

[jis]

From Amtrak's Press Release:

These systems will be another tool for Amtrak and industry regulators to monitor locomotive and engineer performance.

This will either be a good thing or a bad thing depending on how it is managed. Given that it is Amtrak who knows for sure? It will remain a bit of an open issue whether this will work towards reducing accidents or work towards management taking care of their personal grudges. We'll have to see.

Some of you may have great faith in Amtrak management. I don't count myself among them in general, even though there are a few really good people in the ranks of Amtrak management. But collectively what comes out of Amtrak management leaves much to be desired.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Ditto to what jis said!

 

[MARC Rider]

It would seem to me that some of the concerns could be dealt with by rigging the cameras up to only record a short "loop". If there are no incidents, then the record is immediately erased. After a crash, the last couple of minutes before the crash would be filmed. This provides the crash investigators whatever information they need to see what happened in the cab, and no more.

 

[jis]

It would seem to me that some of the concerns could be dealt with by rigging the cameras up to only record a short "loop". If there are no incidents, then the record is immediately erased. After a crash, the last couple of minutes before the crash would be filmed. This provides the crash investigators whatever information they need to see what happened in the cab, and no more.

Yes indeed! But Mr. Boardman seems to have a much broader agenda reading his statement at its face value. Maybe he mistakenly overstated.

 

[MARC Rider]

It would seem to me that some of the concerns could be dealt with by rigging the cameras up to only record a short "loop". If there are no incidents, then the record is immediately erased. After a crash, the last couple of minutes before the crash would be filmed. This provides the crash investigators whatever information they need to see what happened in the cab, and no more.

Yes indeed! But Mr. Boardman seems to have a much broader agenda reading his statement at its face value. Maybe he mistakenly overstated.

Yes, indeed, but proposing the short "loop" cameras would be a way for the union to push back without appearing to be clueless about safety concerns.

 

[PRR 60]

My. Boardman's statement that the videos will be "another tool for Amtrak and industry regulators to monitor locomotive and engineer performance" is a bit ominous.

What I would propose is that the videos be encrypted, with only the NTSB having the encryption code to view them. That would ensure that the cameras are only used for accident investigation purposes (as intended by the NTSB), and would prevent Amtrak from using the videos for the purpose of employee monitoring and discipline. Morale at Amtrak is already low enough. The don't need Joe Boardman looking into every locomotive cab to see who he can ding.

 

[Alexandria Nick]

Without taking any position on the pro or con of this, I just note that NTSB has been asking for this for a while now. They have asked for the same in airline cockpits for a while too but FAA appears to have resisted, facing opposition from ALPA, since they could not find a pressing need for it and could not come up with a persuasive example of an accident for which the cockpit camera would have been indispensable to reach a conclusion about what happened. Although one could argue that something like the Egyptair crash could be such an example for reaching a conclusion much more definitively.

Ehhhh, I'm somewhat skeptical of that. In 99% of accidents, the CVRs are going to get the job done. And in the 1% that is questionable, at least one party wouldn't believe the video any more than the CVR they're not believing too. Egypt was pretty much a "NUH UH NO WAY" with a voice recording and, with a video, they'd just be like "NOPE FAKE."

 

[afigg]

My. Boardman's statement that the videos will be "another tool for Amtrak and industry regulators to monitor locomotive and engineer performance" is a bit ominous.

What I would propose is that the videos be encrypted, with only the NTSB having the encryption code to view them. That would ensure that the cameras are only used for accident investigation purposes (as intended by the NTSB), and would prevent Amtrak from using the videos for the purpose of employee monitoring and discipline. Morale at Amtrak is already low enough. The don't need Joe Boardman looking into every locomotive cab to see who he can ding.

Only the NTSB having the encryption codes is not going to happen. At all. One, the NTSB investigates only a limited number of accidents, generally the bigger ones. Making the NTSB responsible for encryption code access would mean the agency would have to get involved in many more accidents, at least to the extent of providing the de-encryption codes or accessing the videos. Besides, the NTSB is not a regulatory agency and controlling access to encryption codes would be something that would more properly done by a regulatory or law enforcement agency.

Two, what happens in a court when Amtrak is sued for a grade crossing accident or some other incident and the court orders the in-cab video be provided during discovery? The in-cab videos could be encrypted, but access to the videos is not going to be left only up to any single government agency, but also up to judges, courts, and subpoenas from district attorneys, law enforcement agencies.

The reality is that because technology advancement has made video cameras and digitized video data storage so cheap, video cameras are proliferating in the public space like kudzu. In another decade or two, one may have to get used to the idea of being on video cameras almost any time they step outside of their house or at their workplace.

 

[afigg]

BTW, the FRA response to Amtrak's announcement: FRA Statement Regarding Amtrak Inward Facing Camera Installation.

Statement From the FRA regarding Amtrak's decision to install inward facing cameras:

"Inward facing cameras enhance safety while serving as an additional tool for investigators to better understand how accidents occur. Amtrak's decision to install and use cameras is a positive response to our call for greater levels of safety and for wider use of this technology throughout the industry. The Federal Railroad Administration is a strong supporter of inward facing cameras and is currently finalizing a proposed rulemaking on their installation and uses."

 

[Devil's Advocate]

At my work we have cameras watching critical areas 24/7 but most of the actual work being done is not monitored in that way. It's still trackable of course but through other less obvious means. All things considered I would support reasonable restrictions on the potential misuse of uneventful footage.

 

[cirdan]

Doesn't the black box provide an accurate record of the engineer's actions.

So basically it timestamps and records every action of the engineer, so you can later reconstruct the precise location, speed and time at which things happened.

Camera footage would never have that level of accuracy. You might see the engineer had his hand on the throttle and moved it somewhat, but reconstructing by how far exactly he did so is going to be a fuzzy area.

Likewise, the footage is going to have to be pretty high quality if you're going to be able to read the speed and other instruments. And that is if you find an unobstructed angle to be able to film from, which isn't going to be easy.

So unless you want to be able to prove that the engineer was picking his nose at the time of the accident, I don't see much that the camera will see that the black box won't.

 

[AlanB]

So unless you want to be able to prove that the engineer was picking his nose at the time of the accident, I don't see much that the camera will see that the black box won't.

Please let me preface this by saying that I'm not suggesting that in the case of the 188 crash that the following happened.

But what I'll call "educated" rumors abound that some engineers knowing that their personal cell phones must be turned off buy & bring throw away phones so that they can stay in touch. This way in the event of an accident, the NTSB is busy investigating their registered phone and wasting their time as it will come up clean. But a camera would make it quite clear that a phone was in his hand; be it his or a throw away or even a phone registered in a family/friend's name.

Or had the engineer dozed off, again the camera might well show that.

And in this specific case, it might have shown that perhaps he panicked from the impact of whatever hit that engine just prior to the crash prompting him to think "let me get the heck out of here" and forgetting in that moment where he was on the line.

I'm sure that there are other possible scenarios that I haven't thought of where an inward facing camera could show some conclusive evidence that would not be provided by the black box.

 

[jis]

I am skeptical of claims that the camera would not provide any additional useful information. Even the forward facing camera has been of immense help filling in some details in the investigation of the 188 accident. It would be absolutely amazing if the inward facing camera, were it present, did not fill in additional information about what happened after the projectile hit in the cab, together with corroboration of some evidence given by other witnesses of an event or two that the Engineer does not recall.

The issue is not whether camera will help or not - it unequivocally will. The issue is balancing its presence against concerns of privacy of the individual, and to what extent such privacy should or should not trump the need of the safety of many.

 

[NW cannonball]

I am sceptical of claims that the camera would not provide any additional useful information. Even the forward facing camera has been of immense help filling in some details in the investigation of the 188 accident. It would be absolutely amazing if the inward facing camera, were it present, did not fill in additional information about what happened after the projectile hit in the cab, together with corborating some evidence given by other witnesses of an event or two that the Engineer does not recall.

The issue is not whether camera will help or not - it unequivocally will. The issue is balancing its presence against concerns of privacy of the individual, and two what extent such privacy should or should not trump the need of the safety of many.

Clearly stated, thanks

 

[leemell]

Metrolink installed the inward camera a couple years in response to the Chatsworth accident. So the use of them is not new. I don't know the rules or procedures that go with them, but haven't heard any kick backs on their use since they were installed.

 

[fairviewroad]

Here's a [truly bad] idea: Provide a live-feed of the inward facing cameras onto monitors installed in every passenger car. That way, if someone

spots the engineer yakking on a cell phone or falling asleep, they can pull the emergency brake!

On a more serious note, I think jis nailed it in post #22.