Revival of Night Owl/Twilight Shoreliner

[railiner]

This is one of those, “I can’t understand why this isn’t already the case” situations.

I rode the sleeper on the new night owl several times - it’s an extremely useful service. Every time I was on it, except for the inaugural in 2021, it was almost full. It’s one of the few areas where a sleeper train makes complete sense.

Are the two V1/2 sleepers simply not available?

They used to need at least four…a thru sleeper from Washington to Boston, plus the “set out/in” Washington to New York, each way.
There was never a Boston to New York sleeper, at least not since the New Haven RR era…

 

[Palmland]

Given good reliable service there is a certainly a market for overnight trains. This review of the Night Riviera between London and the coastal towns of Cornwall shows what’s possible. It is apparently quite popular even with its leisurely 8 hour schedule for the 300 miles.

 

[Cal]

It is apparently quite popular even with its leisurely 8 hour schedule for the 300 miles

Fastness isn't always a bonus for overnight trains IMO. If you depart at 10 pm and get in at 5 am, you can't get proper rest. I think departing around 7-8 and arriving 6-8 is optimal.

 

[west point]

Amtrak of course does not have the sleepers now for night owl service. Even if it did have equipment a BOS - WASH & NYP - WASH would be great but the return WASH - BOS is not now really feasible due to the off and on Hell gate overnight shutdowns due the MNRR work for east side access.

 

[poncho]

I would think an onboard lounge/bar car would be popular too. Board the train late evening, go have a nightcap then go to bed in your sleeper, wake up, have coffee and light breakfast the last 30 mins-1 hour onboard and then step off in the morning in the heart of the city. Would allow them to stretch overnight trains for 10-12 hour journeys. This is a bit like Los Angeles-Tucson & Seattle-Glacier NP trips now with evening departures.

 

[Amtrak25]

At least run a lights-out leg, rest coach as a quiet car. The Adirondack has 4 leg rest coaches and is uncalled for. They could cut/add the car as DC with the loco change, and while they are at it, a baggage car.

Amtrak is simply a thoughtless bureaucracy.

 

[jiml]

Given good reliable service there is a certainly a market for overnight trains. This review of the Night Riviera between London and the coastal towns of Cornwall shows what’s possible. It is apparently quite popular even with its leisurely 8 hour schedule for the 300 miles.

It has been sold out of sleeper space every time I have looked at booking and is not cheap. The same can be said for the multiple versions of the Caledonian Sleeper - the Lowland version of which serves similar distances versus the much longer Highland routes. There are critics that would debate whether the CS is "good" or "reliable", although they seem to have ironed out the issues and the problems (with CAF coaches incidentally) did not hurt its ridership much.

 

[railiner]

I would think an onboard lounge/bar car would be popular too. Board the train late evening, go have a nightcap then go to bed in your sleeper, wake up, have coffee and light breakfast the last 30 mins-1 hour onboard and then step off in the morning in the heart of the city. Would allow them to stretch overnight trains for 10-12 hour journeys. This is a bit like Los Angeles-Tucson & Seattle-Glacier NP trips now with evening departures.

When the Night Owl was in operation, its Cafe never closed…maybe the only “open all night” food service car on the entire system.
And when a new horde of passengers boarded each way at NYP, at “0 Dark 30”, the line for service ran the length of the car.
As the train reached the dawn hour, another “rush” was created by now commuters boarding the train.

 

[toddinde]

I would think an onboard lounge/bar car would be popular too. Board the train late evening, go have a nightcap then go to bed in your sleeper, wake up, have coffee and light breakfast the last 30 mins-1 hour onboard and then step off in the morning in the heart of the city. Would allow them to stretch overnight trains for 10-12 hour journeys. This is a bit like Los Angeles-Tucson & Seattle-Glacier NP trips now with evening departures.

Tucson to LA is extremely popular even with three day a week service and zero marketing. It’s a prime example of how popular overnight trains are, even for coach passengers.

 

[poncho]

Tucson to LA is extremely popular even with three day a week service and zero marketing. It’s a prime example of how popular overnight trains are, even for coach passengers.

Very similar to Seattle/Portland -> Whitefish, MT. I was blown away how many got off there. And as proof of how popular it is... there's a Budget rental car office in the station (was a recent post here about why there aren't car rentals at Amtrak stations). Whitefish has more usage than much larger cities like Austin.

 

[toddinde]

When I was a kid, many major train stations had car rental agencies including my hometown of Milwaukee. It would seem like a good idea for Amtrak to encourage that, though they own so few of their stations.

 

[poncho]

When I was a kid, many major train stations had car rental agencies including my hometown of Milwaukee. It would seem like a good idea for Amtrak to encourage that, though they own so few of their stations.

Makes sense. For an in-city rental location, doesn't hurt having it near a station when locating it. Looks like MiamiCentral has an Avis. I used an Enterprise rental years ago in Detroit near the Amtrak station but that location no longer exists. Its likely lack of service and low ridership is the reason they are so rare, most car rentals are either airport based while in-city neighborhood locations are for car crashes with insurance paying for replacement vehicles.

 

[west point]

Encourage a car rental agency to have a small counter at stations that would only be manned 1 hour before scheduled arrival ( Maybe 1/2 hr. at very small stations) till 1 hour after late train leaves or sooner if all transactions complete. Maybe even allow agent at manned stations to handle any rental transactions and be part of ticket counter. Main item is convince station owner to allow with no rental charges. All this when trains get enough equipment to have larger O&Ds.

 

[John Bredin]

I think departing around 7-8 and arriving 6-8 is optimal.

I agree about arriving, but I think the ideal departure would be to open for boarding around 7-8 but not close boarding or depart until about midnight, to allow people attending concerts, shows, night ballgames, etc. to get to the station. Admittedly, that ideal maybe can't be achieved where trains can't tie up a platform for a few hours.

I'd love to see a fleet of dedicated night trains, distinguishable from long-distance trains by having
(1) no dining car, but a cafe for snacks and drinks pre-sleep and coffee/tea/light breakfast on arrival.
(2) 1-2 coaches with ordinary seats. 2-3 coaches with very reclinable seats, but mostly sleeping cars focused on providing ample single and double occupancy. Capsules as on the new European trains for single riders. Lots of roomettes for couples. Few bedrooms. One common shower per sleeper car. Some luggage space, and definitely bicycle capacity, but not too much luggage space.

I picture these trains used on a series of night routes, making stops along the way (hence the ordinary coaches) but timed and mostly focused on the end point cities (and a suburban stop or two). Groups of routes radiating from central hubs that are major destinations and have enough "secondary" cities at the right 5-10 hour range: Boston, New York, Washington, Raleigh, Atlanta, Orlando, Chicago, New Orleans, Dallas/Ft. Worth, Los Angeles. Would have to have enough capacity that the round-trip fare would be competitive with round-trip day travel + hotel room.

 

[Tlcooper44]

I agree about arriving, but I think the ideal departure would be to open for boarding around 7-8 but not close boarding or depart until about midnight, to allow people attending concerts, shows, night ballgames, etc. to get to the station. Admittedly, that ideal maybe can't be achieved where trains can't tie up a platform for a few hours.

I really see this as a separate market with not a lot of crossover - or a nonexistent market altogether.

Aside from taking valuable platform time (which is a non starter), departing at midnight and arriving between 10-12 kind of defeats the primary market of business and tourist travelers. There's real value in mirroring one night hotel schedules for the majority of trips taken - especially in a corridor like BOS - DC.

In my mind, departing at midnight really downgrades any night train to the usefulness of an Amtrak LDR.

 

[John Bredin]

I really see this as a separate market with not a lot of crossover - or a nonexistent market altogether.

Aside from taking valuable platform time (which is a non starter), departing at midnight and arriving between 10-12 kind of defeats the primary market of business and tourist travelers. There's real value in mirroring one night hotel schedules for the majority of trips taken - especially in a corridor like BOS - DC.

In my mind, departing at midnight really downgrades any night train to the usefulness of an Amtrak LDR.

Note that I agreed with the arrival time, 6-8 am. I agree that arriving in the late morning or midday makes it more like a long-distance train and less like a night train.

If you have a city pair 10 hours apart, then I agree the departure has to be more like 9-10 pm to maintain a 6-8am arrival. If you have a city pair 12 hours apart, the departure has to be 6-8pm to preserve the 6-8 am arrival.

But I firmly believe that if departure can be held until after 11am with arrival still 6-8am, the train becomes an option for those attending ballgames, concerts, shows, etc. without spending another night in the city. And not spending another night in the city is what a night train is all about.

I'm picturing the crowd at a Metra downtown terminal for the after-midnight last departures. Folks who attended a Cubs or Bulls game, a concert at Soldier Field, or a show at the Opera House. But instead of consisting of suburbanites, it consists of people from other cities who attended the same events and don't want to add the expense of a Chicago hotel room just because it's late. Or substitute a Broadway show, Red Sox game, Dodgers game, etc.

Ideally, as I said, the early-leave market and the evening-out market would be served by the same train, with boarding beginning 6-8pm but not ending until 11-12.

Where that platform dwell is untenable, a large enough city-pair market could support two trains, one early AND one late. I can picture NY-Boston, or Chicago-St.Paul, or Los Angeles-Phoenix, supporting a (for example) 7pm and 12:15am night-train departure.

If the city-pair market can't support two night trains, then marketing research would be needed to resolve if travelers are more business-focused and want to go home when their business is done (6-8pm departure) or more leisure-focused and want to avail themselves of the nighttime amenities of the city they're visiting (11pm or later departure).

 

[Cal]

it consists of people from other cities who attended the same events and don't want to add the expense of a Chicago hotel room just because it's late. Or substitute a Broadway show, Red Sox game, Dodgers game, etc.

This would be amazing honestly. With stadium tours, artists only hit select cities, so this could be perfect.

 

[blueman271]

Makes sense. For an in-city rental location, doesn't hurt having it near a station when locating it. Looks like MiamiCentral has an Avis. I used an Enterprise rental years ago in Detroit near the Amtrak station but that location no longer exists. Its likely lack of service and low ridership is the reason they are so rare, most car rentals are either airport based while in-city neighborhood locations are for car crashes with insurance paying for replacement vehicles.

MiamiCentral is the Brightline station in Downtown Miami. Amtrak doesn’t serve it. When/if Amtrak moves to the Intermodal Center the airport rental car center will be a short escalator ride away and Miami will immediately become the Amtrak station with the easiest access to rental cars. And I’m not talking 1 or 2 agencies, every major and most minor ones are located at the rental car center.

 

[MARC Rider]

MiamiCentral is the Brightline station in Downtown Miami. Amtrak doesn’t serve it. When/if Amtrak moves to the Intermodal Center the airport rental car center will be a short escalator ride away and Miami will immediately become the Amtrak station with the easiest access to rental cars. And I’m not talking 1 or 2 agencies, every major and most minor ones are located at the rental car center.

Let's see, Washington has 2-3 rental car desks right in the station (or they did a few years ago) with the cars in the parking deck over the bus terminal. Of course, driving around in downtown DC is a pain in the neck. Philadelphia 30th St. has some rental car desks in the station, and at Boston, you can call Enterprise in South Boston, and they will pick you up. People arriving at White River Junction, VT can get rentals cars at the Lebanon Airport nearby, they will pick you up and drop you off, but the Vermonter from the south arrives after the rental car offices close, you have to spend the night in WRJ. Fortunately, the Hotel Coolidge is a short walk from the station. There used to be rental car desks in Chicago Union Station, but I don't know the status after the demolition of the parking deck next door, which is where the cars were stored.

 

[railiner]

Note that I agreed with the arrival time, 6-8 am. I agree that arriving in the late morning or midday makes it more like a long-distance train and less like a night train.

If you have a city pair 10 hours apart, then I agree the departure has to be more like 9-10 pm to maintain a 6-8am arrival. If you have a city pair 12 hours apart, the departure has to be 6-8pm to preserve the 6-8 am arrival.

Or even cities further apart in the pre-Amtrak era could have what you might call, “night trains”?

The Broadway Limited, and the Twentieth Century Limited both left New York at 6:00 PM, and arrived Chicago at 9:00 AM (CT) for a period.

And the Denver Zephyr left Chicago at 5:00 PM, and arrived Denver at 8:30 AM (MT).
Even its tagline was: “Overnite, Every Nite”.

Other candidates for a period included the Panama Limited between Chicago and New Orleans, and the Crescent on its Washington to Atlanta segment.

All of these examples allowed commercial travelers to conduct a full business day both before and after their full nights sleep between…

 

[blueman271]

Let's see, Washington has 2-3 rental car desks right in the station (or they did a few years ago) with the cars in the parking deck over the bus terminal. Of course, driving around in downtown DC is a pain in the neck. Philadelphia 30th St. has some rental car desks in the station, and at Boston, you can call Enterprise in South Boston, and they will pick you up. People arriving at White River Junction, VT can get rentals cars at the Lebanon Airport nearby, they will pick you up and drop you off, but the Vermonter from the south arrives after the rental car offices close, you have to spend the night in WRJ. Fortunately, the Hotel Coolidge is a short walk from the station. There used to be rental car desks in Chicago Union Station, but I don't know the status after the demolition of the parking deck next door, which is where the cars were stored.

None of that sounds as easy as riding an escalator upstairs and having access to every major and most minor rental car agencies around. Which will be the situation if/when Amtrak moves to the Miami Intermodal Center. I might add that like at most airports, the rental agencies at the rental car center are open 24 hours a day so there is no need to worry if your train is several hours late arriving.

 

[poncho]

MiamiCentral is the Brightline station in Downtown Miami. Amtrak doesn’t serve it. When/if Amtrak moves to the Intermodal Center the airport rental car center will be a short escalator ride away and Miami will immediately become the Amtrak station with the easiest access to rental cars. And I’m not talking 1 or 2 agencies, every major and most minor ones are located at the rental car center.

Very aware it's not Amtrak but it is an American passenger rail station so it's worth noting it as a car rental existing at a station away from the high volume NEC.

 

[Anderson]

This is one of those, “I can’t understand why this isn’t already the case” situations.

I rode the sleeper on the new night owl several times - it’s an extremely useful service. Every time I was on it, except for the inaugural in 2021, it was almost full. It’s one of the few areas where a sleeper train makes complete sense.

Are the two V1/2 sleepers simply not available?

That's dubious (the initial cutting of the sleeper was when the Cardinal went single-level, FWIW), but the bigger issue is that 66/67 are no longer a pair going into NPN. The credit/blame for this goes to the second Roanoke train, which as far as I can tell needed one of those trains (though I honestly don't know why they didn't just flip the pair), but the result is that they'd need three or four cars* plus a spare, and on two of the runs the train would terminate at NYP.

*BOS->NPN, NPN->NYP, NYP->ROA, ROA->BOS; the BOS, NPN, and ROA turns are all same-day midday turns, while NYP can theoretically be done as a four-hour same-night turn?

 

[Amtrak25]

That's dubious (the initial cutting of the sleeper was when the Cardinal went single-level, FWIW), but the bigger issue is that 66/67 are no longer a pair going into NPN. The credit/blame for this goes to the second Roanoke train, which as far as I can tell needed one of those trains (though I honestly don't know why they didn't just flip the pair), but the result is that they'd need three or four cars* plus a spare, and on two of the runs the train would terminate at NYP.

*BOS->NPN, NPN->NYP, NYP->ROA, ROA->BOS; the BOS, NPN, and ROA turns are all same-day midday turns, while NYP can theoretically be done as a four-hour same-night turn

No, they can run it with 2 cars, on trains 65 or 67 in one direction and 66 in the other, and cut the car south of Washington, along with a baggage car. It does not matter where in Virgina the rest of the train goes, and Virginia won't pay to run those cars in any case, being a PRIAA-209 operation.

 

[Harmon Shay]

At least run a lights-out leg, rest coach as a quiet car. The Adirondack has 4 leg rest coaches and is uncalled for. They could cut/add the car as DC with the loco change, and while they are at it, a baggage car.

Amtrak is simply a thoughtless bureaucracy.

I don't think the Adirondack has many leg rest coaches anymore. I believe most or all of them went to the long distance trains, some to make up the extra consist required for the Floridian. They should never have been on a medium-distance train like the Adirondack in the first place.