Japan - Monorail vs regular Metro

[user 6862]

After arriving at Tokyo Haneda airport today I had a direct comparison between maybe an elderly? Monorail and an up to date Metro train.
We used the monorail from the airport to it's city terminal a couple of metro stops before Tokyo Central Station. at Hamamatsucho Station. This station is a transfer station to JR (Japan Rail) metro system. We transferred to the JR Yamanote Line for the last 6 or 7 stops to Akihabara Station, so rode both lines within 30 minutes of each other.

I found the Monorail equipment average to mediocre at best. Yes it was novel but the comparison with a modern metro track and train set was huge. Admittedly we were very tired, travelling for the entire previous 24 hours: ferry~>taxi~>airplane~>another airplane~>monorail~>metro~>and a walk to a hotel so the extra comfort and smoothness plus better layout and far more space of the metro line was very noticeable. I would compare today's metro with London's Elizabeth Line for comfort and ease of use.

Here's the question: I'm 'guessing' that the cost to build a monorail is higher than a regular metro line? why would a city be doing that if a regular metro line were cheaper and far more suitable to moving people?

Any ideas?

 

[BlackDiamond]

I found the Monorail equipment average to mediocre at best. Yes it was novel but the comparison with a modern metro track and train set was huge.

I had a similar reaction after riding the Seattle monorail. Of course at the time it was the only fixed guideway transport in town. Seemed more like an expensive novelty than a practical means of transportation.

 

[user 6862]

That's interesting, similar reaction. I was wondering if there were certain terrain where monorail had the advantage as the reason for going that route (pun intended).

 

[MARC Rider]

I had a similar reaction after riding the Seattle monorail. Of course at the time it was the only fixed guideway transport in town. Seemed more like an expensive novelty than a practical means of transportation.

I think monorails had their run of popularity in the 1950s and 60s. Back then, I think that "futurists" realized the need for some sort of fixed guideway transportation, but railroads seemed so 19th century, which means they'd do anything to avoid including railroad trains in their vision of future transportation. This is still true in some quarters -- look at the fixations on hyperlops and maglevs.

One big problems with monorails is that turnouts (switches) are very cumbersome, which means that whatever network is built doesn't have much flexibility, and it's also harder to move disabled equipment off the racks, and so forth.

It's interesting to see that, in addition to the Tokyo Haneda monorail lines, there are 9 other operating monorail lines in Japan, though one of them is at the Disney Resort, and might not be considered practical urban transport. There are also 7 discontinued lines, a couple of which operated in now-closed theme parks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monorails_in_Japan

 

[jis]

I have been on the Shonan Monorail and it was quite a fun circle trip out from Tokyo to Kamakura, then Enoshima Electric Railway Line (which itself is worth a ride) from there to the Shonan Monorail terminal at Shonan-Enoshima station, then the Monorail which takes one to Ofuna where one can catch a classic Tokaido Line train back to Tokyo. I actually did it out of Yokohama so the trip was a little shorter overall. I was at a standards meeting in the Minato Mirai area classy hotel, I forget which.

 

[MARC Rider]

After arriving at Tokyo Haneda airport today I had a direct comparison between maybe an elderly? Monorail and an up to date Metro train.
We used the monorail from the airport to it's city terminal a couple of metro stops before Tokyo Central Station. at Hamamatsucho Station. This station is a transfer station to JR (Japan Rail) metro system. We transferred to the JR Yamanote Line for the last 6 or 7 stops to Akihabara Station, so rode both lines within 30 minutes of each other.

I found the Monorail equipment average to mediocre at best. Yes it was novel but the comparison with a modern metro track and train set was huge. Admittedly we were very tired, travelling for the entire previous 24 hours: ferry~>taxi~>airplane~>another airplane~>monorail~>metro~>and a walk to a hotel so the extra comfort and smoothness plus better layout and far more space of the metro line was very noticeable. I would compare today's metro with London's Elizabeth Line for comfort and ease of use.

Here's the question: I'm 'guessing' that the cost to build a monorail is higher than a regular metro line? why would a city be doing that if a regular metro line were cheaper and far more suitable to moving people?

Any ideas?

Monorails are supposedly quieter than conventional rail because most monorail systems use rubber pneumatic tires as the interface between the vehicle and the rail. Thus, I find it interesting that you found the Yamanote Line to be quieter than the monorail. I rode both the monorail and the Yamanote Line, but it was in 1978, so my memory about the details is pretty hazy.

It may well be that you had the misfortune to ride in some of the older monorail rolling stock, which is now showing its age. According to Wikipedia, the oldest equipment now running was introduced in 1989, and thus 34 years old. For a comparison for those familiar with US systems, imagine if you landed in Philadelphia and rode the SEPTA Airport Line into the city. You might be riding the relatively new Silverliner V cars, but there is a possibility you'll get stuck with a 50-year old Silverliner IV train. I think there's a big difference in the experience.

 

[west point]

Mono rails do not operate at very fast speeds. For various reasons most become dynamically unstable above various speeds 30 - 40 MPH. They can run faster if equipped with active dynamic dampening.

 

[Bob Dylan]

I had a similar reaction after riding the Seattle monorail. Of course at the time it was the only fixed guideway transport in town. Seemed more like an expensive novelty than a practical means of transportation.

The Seattle Monorail is a Leftover from the 1962 World's Fair.

At the time Monorails were all the Rage, and considered the Future of Rail Travel.

Disney World also was Big on this Technology when it was built, but due to the expense and Maintainence problems, it is no longer considered by most places that are building Rail Transportation.

 

[cirdan]

One of the reasons that BART was built to a broader gauge was, or so it is said, on account of intervention by the SP to discourage future attempts at track sharing. There would be nothing new about this way of thinking. When Fulgence Bienvenue built the initial parts of the Paris Metro, he wanted to build them to narrow gauge as he didn't want the military to requisition his metro in case of war and force him to run thru trains. According to what is said, the military saw thorough his trick and intervened, forcing him to lay his track to standard gauge. Bienvenue had no choice but to comply, but he sneakily built his tunnels to a narrower clearance and laid curves to a radius that main line trains could never have taken. So the last laugh was on him.

So in some cases, incompatible system may be desired for political ends or to protect one's system against the expansive interests of other systems. This may be a reason for chosing monorails and other gadgetbahns.

 

[joelkfla]

Disney World also was Big on this Technology when it was built, but due to the expense and Maintainence problems, it is no longer considered by most places that are building Rail Transportation.

Walt loved futuristic gadgetry; witness the vacuum-powered trash collection tubes under the Magic Kingdom. EPCOT, which was originally the name for the entire Florida Project, was his vision of the city of the future, so naturally it included not only the Monorail, but also the continuously moving People Mover (very different from today's definition of people movers.) He was also a huge railfan, BTW.

One of the reasons that BART was built to a broader gauge was, or so it is said, on account of intervention by the SP to discourage future attempts at track sharing. There would be nothing new about this way of thinking. When Fulgence Bienvenue built the initial parts of the Paris Metro, he wanted to build them to narrow gauge as he didn't want the military to requisition his metro in case of war and force him to run thru trains. According to what is said, the military saw thorough his trick and intervened, forcing him to lay his track to standard gauge. Bienvenue had no choice but to comply, but he sneakily built his tunnels to a narrower clearance and laid curves to a radius that main line trains could never have taken. So the last laugh was on him.

So in some cases, incompatible system may be desired for political ends or to protect one's system against the expansive interests of other systems. This may be a reason for chosing monorails and other gadgetbahns.

Also the reason the NYC subway system has 2 different loading gauges. The original lines were built by 2 competing companies.

 

[bonzoesc]

This is complete speculation, but I can see gadgetbahns like the Tokyo Monorail and the New Shuttle being built in Japan partially as product development exercises. If you’re a municipality considering a gadgetbahn for a downtown circulator or connecting a rental car center to the airport terminal, Hitachi or Mitsubishi can absolutely say “you’re not paying for beta testing, this technology already moves 10 million people annually in Japan.”

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I had a direct comparison between maybe an elderly? Monorail and an up to date Metro train. We used the monorail from the airport to it's city terminal a couple of metro stops before Tokyo Central Station. at Hamamatsucho Station. This station is a transfer station to JR (Japan Rail) metro system. We transferred to the JR Yamanote Line for the last 6 or 7 stops to Akihabara Station, so rode both lines within 30 minutes of each other. I found the Monorail equipment average to mediocre at best. Yes it was novel but the comparison with a modern metro track and train set was huge.

A monorail would be a poor replacement for a conventional rail line, but the reverse can also be true. At various points the Tokyo Monorail navigates down a thin strip of land and changes elevation quickly (see below). Such requirements can be difficult or impractical for a conventional rail line.

Here's the question: I'm 'guessing' that the cost to build a monorail is higher than a regular metro line? why would a city be doing that if a regular metro line were cheaper and far more suitable to moving people?

A mile of monorail is more expensive than a mile of conventional rail but can be cheaper than a mile of dense urban tunneling and safer than grade crossings.

That's interesting, similar reaction. I was wondering if there were certain terrain where monorail had the advantage as the reason for going that route (pun intended).

Finding situations where a monorail has an advantage are possible but finding enough of them to grow economies of scale is problematic.

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

I think it must be exceptionally talented, animated, musical.... sales pitches.

 

[Willbridge]

The Seattle monorail was in effect a beta test by the manufacturer. When we rode it to the World's Fair, my dad pointed out that the operator was driving with a conventional rapid transit train controller. It is fun to ride but creates some of the same problems for pedestrians underneath it that an el may.

Given Seattle's ties to the Orient, I've always wondered if the Seattle example led to the efforts in Japan.

 

[bonzoesc]

Given Seattle's ties to the Orient, I've always wondered if the Seattle example led to the efforts in Japan.

Alweg, a German company, built the Disneyland system, the Seattle system, and licensed the tech to Hitachi for the Tokyo system.

 

[Gemuser]

A mile of monorail is more expensive than a mile of conventional rail but can be cheaper than a mile of dense urban tunneling and safer than grade crossings.

Finding situations where a monorail has an advantage are possible but finding enough of them to grow economies of scale is problematic.

The Wuppertal Schwebebahn is an excellent example of a monorail fitting the landscape & being very successful, it has been in operation since 1901. It is a suspended monorail & is very comfortable and when I last rode it in 2017 they were anxiously awaiting their new rolling stock.

 

[BlazeRip]

I wonder if metal on metal is higher maintenance than rubber wheel on cement. DC metro is constantly doing track work. Also I think the rubber tire is less efficient but has the grade advantages mentioned.

 

[user 1215]

Hi v v! I hope you are enjoying your stay in my old stomping grounds! The Haneda monorail is very old. Last time I rode it though, it was much improved over previous times I've been on it in the 70's and 80s. I believe it's also a private line with no other revenue, so they are probably on the edge of profitability.

Was looking at Wiki about that monorail, and about 14 years ago, they proposed extending it to Tokyo Station for a cost of about $300M. However, just 5 years later, that cost seemed to explode to $1.2B. Then, JR, decided they wanted to run conventional rail to Haneda just a couple years ago. That could really hurt the monorail.

Never really understood why a low-footprint, concrete beam ROW is SO much more expensive than more land and steel rail. But the way of the monorail seems to be headed to the same destiny as the hovercraft.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Was looking at Wiki about that monorail, and about 14 years ago, they proposed extending it to Tokyo Station for a cost of about $300M. However, just 5 years later, that cost seemed to explode to $1.2B. Then, JR, decided they wanted to run conventional rail to Haneda just a couple years ago. That could really hurt the monorail.

The Tokyo Monorail already has conventional rail competition in the form of the Keikyu Line with onward single-seat access to the Asakusa Line (et al). Overall convenience is highly situational. A midday arrival at T1/T2 might be a piece of cake whereas an early evening arrival at T3 can be quite uncomfortable.

Never really understood why a low-footprint, concrete beam ROW is SO much more expensive than more land and steel rail. But the way of the monorail seems to be headed to the same destiny as the hovercraft.

Like hovercraft the lack of a sustainable support industry vastly increases the cost of supporting the few operations that do remain. Unlike hovercraft I know of no militarized assault vehicle monorails...but I would love to be proven wrong.

 

[user 1215]

And that adds to my point. There are more options today than ever before. Monorail used to be the ONLY game in town that didn't rely on the overpriced over-road options. But there will always be more people going to more places using more methods. I suspect the ridership on the monorail as it exists today is minimal at the intermediary stops than it is between the airport and its JR connecting point at Hamamatsucho. Actually, the Keikyu line is probably preferred for some - especially those headed South to hop on the Shinkansen at Shinagawa without going all the way into Tokyo.

It gets very complicated when you start looking at the companies, the interconnectivity compatibility, destinations, etc. 30 million people in the immediate area, so there is something for everyone.

That being said, a JR line directly into the airport will be a BIG game changer, providing single ticket (ergo cheaper) connections to the vast JR network.

 

[trainman74]

I think it must be exceptionally talented, animated, musical.... sales pitches.

Along with making sure to have a penknife handy in case the ring comes off someone's pudding can, right?

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

Along with making sure to have a penknife handy in case the ring comes off someone's pudding can, right?

Absolutely!

 

[Ziv]

I have been trying to travel only by ships or buses because I bought a nice, very cheap Swiss Army knife in Athens and do not want to either give it away or check my luggage on a flight again.
But I flew from Santorini to Crete because the ferries were inop due to weather and I had to pay €40 for a checked bag to 'safely' carry my €2 Swiss Army knife in it.
LOL!
I just realized that in effect, my €2 Swiss Army knife [that is as cheap as it is useful] actually cost me €42, since I checked a bag for €40 because I had it...
But it fixed a broken showerhead in Naxos Chora, opened uncounted beer bottles, cut the wrapping off a bunch of cheeses, scissored items fore and aft and cut sausage by the score, so I guess it is worth it.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I flew from Santorini to Crete [...] and I had to pay €40 for a checked bag to 'safely' carry my €2 Swiss Army knife in it. LOL! I just realized that in effect, my €2 Swiss Army knife [that is as cheap as it is useful] actually cost me €42, since I checked a bag for €40 because I had it...

I'm surprised this was an issue outside of the US. Most countries seem to have no issue with the carrying of small folding blades.

 

[Ziv]

I'm surprised this was an issue outside of the US. Most countries seem to have no issue with the carrying of small folding blades.

Oh....
Bother.
I assumed.
LOL!
I bought a small pocket knife for my ex-GF a couple years ago and forgot to put it in my checked bag. So into the trash it went at the TSA check. Grrr... My error though, both then and now.
On edit: In my defense, I seem to attract attentive security people at airports. I got busted for carrying a half full 120 ml container of shampoo. So I had about 60 ml of shampoo in a container that exceeded the standard by half an ounce. And they had me throw out the shampoo. I did not even know shampoo came in 120 ml containers.
And my entry into Australia was much worse than that.