July Changes to Lake Shore and Capitol Limited Dining

[cpotisch]

If you want to try a "legacy" service on the Starlight or Zephyr you need to be able to buck the unions and put only A+ staff on the train.

If you want to try a legacy service on the Coast Starlight, BRING BACK THE PACIFIC PARLOUR CAR!

Just put 1 PPC on a stsrlight set (have a 2nd for backup), and steal an all bedroom sleeper from the auto train, Gul from the Builder (he's already in Seattle) charge a high price for the "legacy service" and advertise it properly. Done deal.

Except that legacy service hasn't done too well when operated on a regular basis. In fact, it's failed. I recall the American Orient Express, Iowa Pacific Holdings, to name two. Tourist railroads? A different animal.

Indeed. Everyone likes to say they want nice things, but an insufficient number actually put $$$ behind it to make it a viable business model. Unfortunately, you can't run a business on hopes and dreams.

I just feel like since the PPCs were so old and cost Amtrak so much money to keep them running, a "legacy service" consisting of one deluxe sleeper couldn't possibly cover those costs. Remember that even with the revenue from two or three full sleepers on each train supporting those costs, it still wasn't enough to keep them in service.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

As long as they arent scrapped theres hope, talking about the PPCs. They were already mothballed once after the SSLs were fully delivered. Hopefully the next CEO is more visionary ala Brian Rosenwald.

More likely would be conversion of a few SSLs to a half sleeper class lounge, half sleeper class dining area which is what the PPC was. So close to what Anderson has done on the two trains already. They just need to polish the product and people would be thrilled. Unfortunately hes not going to.

As great as that would be, it is financially not feasible. These great cars were built in the 1950s, and only 6 were made. Therefore, what few replacement parts there were are long gone and anything has to literally be fabricated in the shop. Just look at how complex the glass alone is.

Exactly, just because they still exist doesn't mean that it's feasible for Amtrak to put a bunch of 60 year old cars with no spare parts available back into service. It just doesn't make sense to run those cars anymore.

If Amtrak wanted to provide the service, but the cars were not practical to run, the PPC would still be on the Starlight using SSL cars as they did when the ppc car was bad ordered.

If you want to Beleive the cars are impractical to run that's your choice. I don't beleive that though.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Please provide me your source for the PPC's "costing amtrak so much money."

I would be surprised if a ppc car cost any more to maintain then a ssl car on a per year basis.

 

[cpotisch]

Please provide me your source for the PPC's "costing amtrak so much money."

I would be surprised if a ppc car cost any more to maintain then a ssl car on a per year basis.

The SSLs are 20-40 years old and have ample spare parts and maintenance facilities. The PPCs were 60 years old and completely unique. All spare parts had to be custom made, which was incredibly expensive. Of course a fleet of six ancient cars are going to cost more to run per car than their fleet of 50 much newer Sightseer Lounges which don't need custom parts to be kept running.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

So how much was Amtrak going to spend on those cars to run them this year?

How much did they spend on them in 2017? 2016? 2015?

What parts on the PPC are so unique? I've heard the windows are expensive.. I'm sure the windows on the SSL car are expensive too. What else?

 

[Ryan]

I recall reading that the HVAC systems were ancient.

 

[railiner]

I recall reading that the HVAC systems were ancient.

I'm sure they were old...but not quite as old as the cars...IIRC, all of the Hi Level cars were originally equipped with self-contained Waukesha enginator's. These were replaced when the cars received the HEP conversion, later.

 

[PVD]

It is generally accepted that maintaining older equipment is more intensive than newer. Aside from parts sourcing challenges, maintenance intervals are almost always shorter on older equipment.A smaller group or type magnifies that. Sometimes, the higher cost of running an older type is balanced out by other factors. An older fully paid for plane or car may be less fuel efficient, but depending on fuel prices may still be viable if the additional maintenance and fuel cost is offset by the lower ownership cost. Other factors creep in, can a piece of equipment do the job required, in airplanes, solid planes with a 3 person crew got retired for comparable 2 person flight crew aircraft. I would be very surprised if a PPC was not quite a bit more expensive to keep on the road over time than a SSL. That doesn't mean a case can't be made to keep them alive, but if they have a minimal effect on passenger satisfaction, and don't bring in money that approaches their cost to keep around, the big question becomes, why?

 

[Amtrakfflyer]

Ozark and a few other places still have 40 plus hi levels that could be bought for cheap and used for parts. It could be done and Anderson did it at Northwest and Delta. He kept and bought 30 plus year old DC-9s re did the interiors. Specifically because it was cheaper at the time then ordering new planes. The DC-9 50 just left Delta at about the same time as Anderson. He also bought/ leased orphan md-90s and 717s over 20 years old as well.

I agree the PPC didnt cost an arm and leg especially with no liens or mortgages. They should have been kept at least 2 days a week on weekends as was done the last year.

That being said the smart solution would be convert 4 superliners to half diner, have sleeper lounge and run that on Friday and Saturday departures from LA. Is there 4 damaged SSLs in Beach Groove? It definitely could be done on the low levels since we have excess V2s for the eastern trains. It wouldnt cost much for the re fit in the big picture. Lots of possibilities for someone who was open to thinkikng our of the box.

 

[cpotisch]

I'm sure the windows on the SSL car are expensive too. What else?

You're missing the point. There are dozens of SSLs. There are plenty of parts for them. The most recent ones were built around 20 years ago, and the company (Bombardier) still exists. There were six PPCs ever, and almost no original parts remain. You can't just say that they both have curved windows so it should all cost the same.

 

[cpotisch]

Ozark and a few other places still have 40 plus hi levels that could be bought for cheap and used for parts.

As far as I can tell, Ozark is the only place on the continent selling Hi-Levels, and they have a grand total of only 20 cars, none of which are lounges like the PPCs, and each one is selling for at least $55,000. Obviously the lounges share most of their parts with the other variations, but stuff like the windows and parts of the roof likely couldn't be used on the PPCs.

I'm also wondering if this whole discussion would fit way better in the actual PPC thread, and not this one which is supposed to be about dining on the CL and LSL...

 

[Amtrakfflyer]

Seeing that the capital and lake shore are serving meals in an sleeper lounge its a salient discussion to a point.

 

[PVD]

Other than the fact that we (or at least most of us) really liked them, is the CS suffering in any measurable financial way from their demise? Do customer service surveys show a groundswell of support for their return?

 

[cpotisch]

Other than the fact that we (or at least most of us) really liked them, is the CS suffering in any measurable financial way from their demise? Do customer service surveys show a groundswell of support for their return?

Exactly. Ridership would have to drop a hell of a lot to compensate for the costs saved by ditching the PPC.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Well none of us know what those costs are so it's pretty hard to say isn't it?

Does the SSL car pay for itself? Nope... Would be a lot cheaper to just have a lower level cafe like they do on the surfliners.

Plenty of ways to cut costs if they want to and there will some sort of justification.

 

[cpotisch]

Well none of us know what those costs are so it's pretty hard to say isn't it?

Does the SSL car pay for itself? Nope... Would be a lot cheaper to just have a lower level cafe like they do on the surfliners.

Plenty of ways to cut costs if they want to and there will some sort of justification.

What makes you say that the SSL is more expensive than a Surfliner-esque cafe car? Just that there's revenue seating on the upper level? Or are you saying that the SSL itself is a lot more expensive to operate than a Surfliner cafe?

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Yes the revenue seating.

To be clear I am for the ssl, and the PPC (I don't care if it's a physical PPC car or another car offering the same service. Well... I do care, I like the history but I get that old cars need to be replaced eventually, especially if you let the maintenance slide the way Amtrak does...).

Im also for cooked to order food on LD trains, but could see going without the table service on at least some routes.

 

[PVD]

Since the SSL is usable for the whole train, and also carries the cafe, it allows a train to have a lounge for the whole train as well as a cafe, but if you have revenue seating upstairs instead of the lounge, the whole train, not just sleepers lose their lounge.This way the cost of the lounge is spread across the whole trainload, not one part of it. Surfliners are corridor trains, not long distance, they are reflective of what their owners choose to run and pay for. It is very hard to make an economic case to keep the PPC and an SSL on the same train, and losing the PPC is a much more practical solution.

 

[Amtrakfflyer]

Or is the solution keeping the SSL lounge for coach and a PPC type car lounge/diner for sleepers and removing the diner. Thats almost like Anderson has done on the two trains. If he just served preplated meals in the sleeper lounge like the PPC/Cardinal/Acela did (or does) I think we would have a workable solution. Serve boxes for purchase in the SSL in the 8-14 dollar range for coach passengers. Down the road make one side of the V2 sleeper lounge more lounge like as well.

 

[ehbowen]

Look. There is absolutely no reason why a popular train such as the Coast Starlight and/or the California Zephyr could not/should not run with two lounge cars, one for sleeper passengers and one for coach, in addition to a full dining car. We're trying to bend over backwards here to make Amtrak's nickel-and-diming seem reasonable. If we had followed a policy of ordering 5 or so Superliner shells per year, every year, since the Superliner II order was initially completed, we would have enough of a surplus of equipment and parts that we wouldn't have to worry about scrounging and repairing wrecks, we could have full consists and even second sections during peak periods, and we'd be in position to consider several added services. Plus, we'd have a small but active industry for parts fabrication and passenger car assembly, so we wouldn't have to be reinventing the wheel every 20 years or so.

I don't want to talk about what to cut. I want to talk about what to ADD!

 

[PVD]

What motivation other than sentiment or history is there to keep a very old stub fleet alive? Is the CS losing ridership/revenue in excess of the cost reduction achieved by not running those cars? That's the cruel world of business. Even if one were so inclined to buy some other old cars to mine parts, why waste money on stocking parts that can only be used for a small cluster of cars unless they bring something to the table that has a broad enough appeal to justify the costs which are subsidized by the general public. That is an ongoing challenge for Amtrak, almost every ride is subsidized to one degree or another, how much is spent on, and what constitutes "first class frills" is a big deal.. Adding an additional car of a common type (at least part of the year) would make more sense than trying to keep alive historical anomalies. Lounge space really adds to the experience of travel, lack of decent lounges is one of the major shortcomings of the single level fleet.

 

[ehbowen]

First class frills sell first class tickets. We can't compete with airlines on speed; we can't compete with highways on flexibility; but we CAN compete in terms of the onboard experience.

 

[PVD]

Unless you are willing to raise those prices by a large margin or attracting lots of new customers you are asking the public to put up more money to support those frills so unless the added comforts bring in more extra money than they add cost it is not likely to happen on a publicly supported entity. LD trains are an important means of transportation for a number of reasons, regardless of competitive advantages or disadvantages in a given situation, it is important to maintain viable alternatives.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

What motivation other than sentiment or history is there to keep a very old stub fleet alive?

The same motivation that had to restore the "very old stub fleet" to begin with!

Taking this back to the topic of the thread... what motivation other than sentiment is there to keep dining car service? Is the CP / LSL losing ridership / revenue?

And then the same can be asked of the SSL cars.

 

[PVD]

It is probably not possible to get a real good read on the LSL since the ridership numbers have to be hurt by not having a NYP origination, and weather beat the heck out of the CL. Again, I don't particularly like the new style of service, I've ridden both trains since the switch, and have commented extensively on my observations. That being said, there is a real possibility that the loss of revenue, if any, might not be as great as the reduction in costs. As sad as it is for those of us who enjoyed the diner, if it works, it isn't going away, and it might spread.