July Changes to Lake Shore and Capitol Limited Dining

[JRR]

Since the meals are prepaid, presumably for the sleeper passengers whether or not they eat anything, allocating as revenue only the menu price of what is consumed, does not truly reflect the proper allocation of the ticket price.

For example if there are two passengers in a roomette, and four meals for a trip, there is an amount of the ticket price which should be properly allocated to the food and beverage.

To the extent that the passengers actually eat less than that amount, the cost of food used is less and there is the opportunity to sell that food to another coach passenger.

By attributing only the menu price of food consumed by the Sleeper Passenger, one is significantly under reporting f&b revenue.

I do not know if they actually report revenue that way. As I see it, the only proper use of the Sleeper Passenger’s order form, is to record the use of inventory and and additional beverages which would capture that additional revenue.

One would have to have access to the accounting records to see what they actually do.

There are other costs properly allocated to F&B but without a detailed report or audit, we will never know.

Just to keep this on topic, while general in nature, it does apply to the CL and LSL as well as any other.

 

[jis]

That is the potential discussion that the regulation in 49CFR encourages IMO. However, that has not happened, since no one seems to have stepped upto the plate to develop a schedule of transfer rules. Also that would reduce the financial performance of the train on the transportation side which may lead to the unfortunate unintended consequence of landing up with a canceled train with excellent food, though one would hope that better food would make up for the reduced transportation revenue.

Of course the right thing to do is to remove the requirement for F&B to be a separate P&L item. But I suppose we can only wish.

 

[railbuck]

By not selling the boxed meals to non-sleeper passengers, there is no published menu price, thus theoretically fewer limits on creative cost allocation. Or we could call it fresh, contemporary accounting.

 

[Amtrakfflyer]

Or just disregard the mandate. Mica was the only one who cared about it. Anderson has already proved he has no problem thumbing his nose at Congress on things he disagrees with.

 

[Ryan]

“Just violate Federal Law” seems like horrible advice.

 

[jis]

“Just violate Federal Law” seems like horrible advice.

Specially with a potentially hostile Attorney General in office. He is the one that has standing to bring action against Amtrak for violating the regulations regarding how the money is to be spent, and of course the SecDOT who is not particularly friendly at present is the one that has to release the next tranche of funds for keeping Amtrak operating. The Executive Branch actually has many levers that they can pull in adverse directions, something that one would want to stay away from as much as possible.

We have possibly grown a bit to relaxed having had friendly AGs and SecDOTs for a while.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Just violate Federal Law seems like horrible advice.

This!

 

[Bronzeman]

Does anyone have any data regarding what the F&B economics look like on the Canadian? It certainly appears obvious that VIA has reached an entirely different conclusion as to what drives ticket sales and gross revenue.

 

[jis]

VIA is under no stricture to manage F&B as a separate P&L center.

VIA also does accounting differently, as required by Canadian rules. VIA counts what in the US would be called subsidy as "contract revenue", similar to what Amtrak does for the PRIIA 209 state supported services. So the financial picture looks entirely different. VIA, under those accounting rules usually runs a balanced account occasionally with a slight surplus. So it is no surprise that they can reach very different conclusions.

 

[Amtrakfflyer]

I seriously doubt anyone would notice. Congress has been good to Amtrak recently and the new one should be too. Theres a half decent chance Anderson will disregard any SWC language. Hes picking and choosing what he follows for his own motives.

Perhaps a better choice would be publicly state downgrading dining service would cost more revenue then it saves and just carry on status quo with a few tweaks. Aka call the bluff like hes doing on everything else.

This whole administration has bigger fish to fry at this point in time. Doing the right thing is correct and noble but the we go high when they go low concept hasnt worked too well so far.

Its all a moot point though Anderson doesnt want a workable solution mandate or not.

 

[cpotisch]

“Just violate Federal Law” seems like horrible advice.

Specially with a potentially hostile Attorney General in office. He is the one that has standing to bring action against Amtrak for violating the regulations regarding how the money is to be spent, and of course the SecDOT who is not particularly friendly at present is the one that has to release the next tranche of funds for keeping Amtrak operating. The Executive Branch actually has many levers that they can pull in adverse directions, something that one would want to stay away from as much as possible.

We have possibly grown a bit to relaxed having had friendly AGs and SecDOTs for a while.

I feel like while Sessions and SecDOT aren't exactly pro-Amtrak at the moment, but I also think that they don't care enough about Amtrak to bother enforcing mandates about how Amtrak spends its own money. And as I understand it, in the three or so years that the F&B mandate has been in place, and the year and a half that Sessions has been AG, there has been no indication of the government trying to take any action against Amtrak for not trying to follow it. Just the way I see it.

 

[jis]

Whatever floats ones boat

 

[jebr]

I'm not convinced that, even if the F&B mandate goes away, that going back to the old status quo is a responsible move for Amtrak. The status quo was fine but nothing inspiring, at least from what seemed to be the consensus around here and my personal experience. Wait staff is expensive, and especially without having the dining service being on the level of the Canadian, the overall experience is kinda...meh. I'm also not convinced that the cost to provide the Canadian's level of F&B service results in an equivalent or greater increase in ticket prices, especially when it's scaled up to a nationwide network vs. a single train that markets itself very strongly to tourists (and, perhaps as a result, is less effective at providing basic transportation than equivalent Amtrak services.)

Even without the F&B mandate, I think going to a lighter-staffing model by removing the full-wait-staff aspect of dining service, is a decent move. The current problem is with implementation - a rather sparse selection of entrees, with only one hot menu option for lunch/dinner (and only one offering, total, for breakfast!) Offering more options, including a wider selection of hot options, moving to pre-ordering meals to allow even wider variety in entrees, and/or hiring back a chef on board with flexibility to make quality meals from scratch (simply picked up at a counter or packaged to be delivered at a seat/accommodation instead of served tableside) would allow it to be an experience that's a net benefit, and arguably better than the status quo for meal service on trains with full diner service.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

My thoughts too. Keep the chef, lose the servers. Offer coach passengers at seat meals to help with money, keep the dining room for sleeping car and BC passengers. Seems like a smart business model to me.

If you want to try a "legacy" service on the Starlight or Zephyr you need to be able to buck the unions and put only A+ staff on the train.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

If you want to try a "legacy" service on the Starlight or Zephyr you need to be able to buck the unions and put only A+ staff on the train.

If you want to try a legacy service on the Coast Starlight, BRING BACK THE PACIFIC PARLOUR CAR!

 

[jis]

If you want to try a "legacy" service on the Starlight or Zephyr you need to be able to buck the unions and put only A+ staff on the train.

If you want to try a legacy service on the Coast Starlight, BRING BACK THE PACIFIC PARLOUR CAR!

That isn’t happening. Sadly.

 

[Amtrakfflyer]

As long as they arent scrapped theres hope, talking about the PPCs. They were already mothballed once after the SSLs were fully delivered. Hopefully the next CEO is more visionary ala Brian Rosenwald.

More likely would be conversion of a few SSLs to a half sleeper class lounge, half sleeper class dining area which is what the PPC was. So close to what Anderson has done on the two trains already. They just need to polish the product and people would be thrilled. Unfortunately hes not going to.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

If you want to try a "legacy" service on the Starlight or Zephyr you need to be able to buck the unions and put only A+ staff on the train.

If you want to try a legacy service on the Coast Starlight, BRING BACK THE PACIFIC PARLOUR CAR!

Just put 1 PPC on a stsrlight set (have a 2nd for backup), and steal an all bedroom sleeper from the auto train, Gul from the Builder (he's already in Seattle) charge a high price for the "legacy service" and advertise it properly. Done deal.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

If you want to try a "legacy" service on the Starlight or Zephyr you need to be able to buck the unions and put only A+ staff on the train.

If you want to try a legacy service on the Coast Starlight, BRING BACK THE PACIFIC PARLOUR CAR!

That isn’t happening. Sadly.

If New York and Maine can successfully run the Great Dome for leaf peepers maybe California can run the PPC as their own limited schedule special.

 

[cpotisch]

If you want to try a "legacy" service on the Starlight or Zephyr you need to be able to buck the unions and put only A+ staff on the train.

If you want to try a legacy service on the Coast Starlight, BRING BACK THE PACIFIC PARLOUR CAR!

Just put 1 PPC on a stsrlight set (have a 2nd for backup), and steal an all bedroom sleeper from the auto train, Gul from the Builder (he's already in Seattle) charge a high price for the "legacy service" and advertise it properly. Done deal.

I don't at all see what the benefit would be in putting one of the Auto Train Deluxe Sleepers on the Starlight, along with the PPC. Why would someone pay extra for a Bedroom in that kind of car? Apologies, but I have no idea what your logic is here.

 

[cpotisch]

If you want to try a "legacy" service on the Starlight or Zephyr you need to be able to buck the unions and put only A+ staff on the train.

If you want to try a legacy service on the Coast Starlight, BRING BACK THE PACIFIC PARLOUR CAR!

That isn’t happening. Sadly.

If New York and Maine can successfully run the Great Dome for leaf peepers maybe California can run the PPC as their own limited schedule special.

The Adirondack and Downeaster are both short distance state supported trains. The Starlight gets no state funding and has six consists. So they really are not at all comparable.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

If you want to try a "legacy" service on the Starlight or Zephyr you need to be able to buck the unions and put only A+ staff on the train.

If you want to try a legacy service on the Coast Starlight, BRING BACK THE PACIFIC PARLOUR CAR!

Just put 1 PPC on a stsrlight set (have a 2nd for backup), and steal an all bedroom sleeper from the auto train, Gul from the Builder (he's already in Seattle) charge a high price for the "legacy service" and advertise it properly. Done deal.

I don't at all see what the benefit would be in putting one of the Auto Train Deluxe Sleepers on the Starlight, along with the PPC. Why would someone pay extra for a Bedroom in that kind of car? Apologies, but I have no idea what your logic is here.

Yeah.. I painted that picture a bit abstract... I was saying if you wanted to create a high-price "legacy" service, that was advertised as being something truly special... you could take just 1 all deluxe sleeper, get a great employee like Gul, and a PPC that would serve as the lounge and diner (add additional lounge seats downstairs) for the Legacy guests. The reason I suggested one of the all deluxe sleepers is because you would want to charge a super high price that would actually cover the costs of all this... so the more bedrooms you could sell the better.

I'm also suggesting that only 1 train set be used.. this is not going to be something that the every day traveler will want, this is the type of service that people would plan their trip around. If the demand is there than more can be added.

 

[cpotisch]

If you want to try a "legacy" service on the Starlight or Zephyr you need to be able to buck the unions and put only A+ staff on the train.

If you want to try a legacy service on the Coast Starlight, BRING BACK THE PACIFIC PARLOUR CAR!

Just put 1 PPC on a stsrlight set (have a 2nd for backup), and steal an all bedroom sleeper from the auto train, Gul from the Builder (he's already in Seattle) charge a high price for the "legacy service" and advertise it properly. Done deal.

I don't at all see what the benefit would be in putting one of the Auto Train Deluxe Sleepers on the Starlight, along with the PPC. Why would someone pay extra for a Bedroom in that kind of car? Apologies, but I have no idea what your logic is here.

Yeah.. I painted that picture a bit abstract... I was saying if you wanted to create a high-price "legacy" service, that was advertised as being something truly special... you could take just 1 all deluxe sleeper, get a great employee like Gul, and a PPC that would serve as the lounge and diner (add additional lounge seats downstairs) for the Legacy guests. The reason I suggested one of the all deluxe sleepers is because you would want to charge a super high price that would actually cover the costs of all this... so the more bedrooms you could sell the better.

I'm also suggesting that only 1 train set be used.. this is not going to be something that the every day traveler will want, this is the type of service that people would plan their trip around. If the demand is there than more can be added.

So this "legacy service" basically just means a bunch of super expensive bedrooms with access to a PPC? Would this be its own train, or basically a super first class section of one of the full Starlight consists? I honestly don't get why they would need to offer an extra expensive service which includes access to a PPC, considering the Starlight seemed to be doing fine offering the PPC to standard sleeper passengers, and the ultimate issue was the PPC itself.

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

As long as they arent scrapped theres hope, talking about the PPCs. They were already mothballed once after the SSLs were fully delivered. Hopefully the next CEO is more visionary ala Brian Rosenwald.

More likely would be conversion of a few SSLs to a half sleeper class lounge, half sleeper class dining area which is what the PPC was. So close to what Anderson has done on the two trains already. They just need to polish the product and people would be thrilled. Unfortunately hes not going to.

As great as that would be, it is financially not feasible. These great cars were built in the 1950s, and only 6 were made. Therefore, what few replacement parts there were are long gone and anything has to literally be fabricated in the shop. Just look at how complex the glass alone is.

 

[railiner]

If you want to try a "legacy" service on the Starlight or Zephyr you need to be able to buck the unions and put only A+ staff on the train.

If you want to try a legacy service on the Coast Starlight, BRING BACK THE PACIFIC PARLOUR CAR!

Just put 1 PPC on a stsrlight set (have a 2nd for backup), and steal an all bedroom sleeper from the auto train, Gul from the Builder (he's already in Seattle) charge a high price for the "legacy service" and advertise it properly. Done deal.

I don't at all see what the benefit would be in putting one of the Auto Train Deluxe Sleepers on the Starlight, along with the PPC. Why would someone pay extra for a Bedroom in that kind of car? Apologies, but I have no idea what your logic is here.

Yeah.. I painted that picture a bit abstract... I was saying if you wanted to create a high-price "legacy" service, that was advertised as being something truly special... you could take just 1 all deluxe sleeper, get a great employee like Gul, and a PPC that would serve as the lounge and diner (add additional lounge seats downstairs) for the Legacy guests. The reason I suggested one of the all deluxe sleepers is because you would want to charge a super high price that would actually cover the costs of all this... so the more bedrooms you could sell the better.

I'm also suggesting that only 1 train set be used.. this is not going to be something that the every day traveler will want, this is the type of service that people would plan their trip around. If the demand is there than more can be added.

So this "legacy service" basically just means a bunch of super expensive bedrooms with access to a PPC? Would this be its own train, or basically a super first class section of one of the full Starlight consists? I honestly don't get why they would need to offer an extra expensive service which includes access to a PPC, considering the Starlight seemed to be doing fine offering the PPC to standard sleeper passengers, and the ultimate issue was the PPC itself.

Wasn't such a "legacy service" tried and failed a couple of times? As in "American European Express", and more recently, the "Pullman Rail Journey's"?