Large plane discussion

[Asher]

Sometimes I think the 737max will be a museum piece before certification.

 

[Dakota 400]

I just read that the Executive Director of the European Aviation Safety Agency expressed confidence in the 737 MAX airworthiness. He said that the design changes make the plane safe to fly and expects it to be in European skies by December. Before that can happen, by international law, the FAA must certify its airworthiness first.

 

[jis]

FAA is very close tor recertifying the MAX, possibly by late November.

https://www.seattletimes.com/busine...step-for-potential-late-november-ungrounding/
They will be requiring pilots to undergo simulator training to handle MCAS idiosyncrasies, and the modified MCAS has lost its overriding priority. It cannot crash a plane all by itself anymore while pilots try to arm wrestle it.

 

[jiml]

It cannot crash a plane all by itself anymore while pilots try to arm wrestle it.

That sounds reassuring.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

For those who want to avoid or seek out these aircraft, domestic airlines with substantial fleets include American, United, and Southwest. Delta has no Max models. United and Southwest previously used "MAX" tags on booking screens and boarding passes while AA sometimes used shorthand like "7M8." The oldest elements of the 737 design stretch all the way back to the 1960's but the new Max-specific engines, winglets, and APU are easily identified.



https://thepointsguy.com/news/737-max-operators-ethiopian-crash/

 

[jiml]

Transport Canada has completed their testing and basically signed off, pending FAA approval. Air Canada and Westjet have far too many MAX's to ignore. They've recently been added to future schedules, including Montreal-Dublin.

 

[railiner]

Hopefully the issues for the MAX will soon be rectified, and overcome, like the older generation 737 rudder issues eventually were, and the airplane becomes solidly reliable...

 

[NS VIA Fan]

.........Air Canada and Westjet have far too many MAX's to ignore. They've recently been added to future schedules, including Montreal-Dublin.

Prior to the Max8 groundings...WestJet was building a Transatlantic Max8 hub in Halifax with routes to Paris, Dublin, Glasgow, Manchester and London Gatwick.

Air Canada had a Max8 to London Heathrow.....and Icelandair a Max8 to Keflavik.

It was the perfect aircraft for the short hop across the pond from here. The only TATL widebodies left in Halifax were Condor's 767-300s to Frankfurt & Munich

And then COVID hit. To go transatlantic now from Halifax......you have to back haul through Montreal or Toronto first before heading east again!

Once the Max8 is re-certified.....I will have absolutely no problem flying on one. It will have to be one of the safest aircraft out there now!

 

[Dakota 400]

For those who want to avoid or seek out these aircraft, domestic airlines with substantial fleets include American, United, and Southwest. Delta has no Max models

Ever since this aircraft became unfortunately "newsworthy", I have wondered why Delta did not "invest" in this aircraft.

 

[jis]

Ever since this aircraft became unfortunately "newsworthy", I have wondered why Delta did not "invest" in this aircraft.

Way before any of this happened Delta had chosen to focus on A32x as the foundation of its mid size fleet. They have hundreds of those on order, so it did not make any sense for them to get B73X class aircraft of any configuration. It has about 200 737-800 and 737-900ER but those are legacy part of their fleet for now.

In contrast, United chose a mixed fleet with about 175 73M on order as well as around 85 A32X on order including 50 A321XLRs which are slated to replace retiring 757s for longer range missions that Boeing was unable to provide a solution for in the 737-10MAX. The older A32X orders are mostly second hand planes to bolster domestic capacity, which were available for the right price at the right time to add onto its existing fleet of the same type.

 

[Dakota 400]

Way before any of this happened Delta had chosen to focus on A3xx as the foundation of its mid size fleet. They have hundreds of those on order, so it did not make any sense for them to get B73X class aircraft of any configuration. It has about 200 t37-800 and 737-900ER but those are legacy part of their fleet for now.

In contrast, United chose a mixed fleet with about 175 73M on order as well as around 85 As2X on order including 50 A321XLRs which are slated to replace retiring 757s for longer range missions that Boeing was unable to provide a solution for in the 737-10MAX. The older A32X orders are mostly second hand planes to bolster domestic capacity, which were available for the right price at the right time to add onto its existing fleet of the same type.

Thank you. I appreciate this information!

 

[Asher]

Prior to the Max8 groundings...WestJet was building a Transatlantic Max8 hub in Halifax with routes to Paris,

Once the Max8 is re-certified.....I will have absolutely no problem flying on one. It will have to be one of the safest aircraft out there now!

I'm reminded of a story I read about the Lockheed Electra when it was re- certified after it was grounded for losing wings on a couple of flights.

"I'd like a ticket on the Electra to New York!" the passenger reportedly said to the ticket
agent.
"We don't sell Electra tickets, we sell chances..." the agent answered, according to the story.

It did indeed return to be a really good airplane.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Hopefully the issues for the MAX will soon be rectified, and overcome, like the older generation 737 rudder issues eventually were, and the airplane becomes solidly reliable...

I have little doubt the Max series will eventually reach generally accepted safety standards. Unfortunately I am equally convinced that the testing and certification process which allowed a major manufacturer to deliver hundreds of defective aircraft over the objections of those who knew better has probably not been fixed. We've seen similar oversights several times in the past and we didn't learn the right lesson back then either. Dependable safety must be baked into the system rather than allowed to rely on the people who manage it to act in the best interests of strangers.

 

[Asher]

I have little doubt the Max series will eventually reach generally accepted safety standards. Unfortunately I am equally convinced that the testing and certification process which allowed a major manufacturer to deliver hundreds of defective aircraft over the objections of those who knew better has probably not been fixed. We've seen similar oversights several times in the past and we didn't learn the right lesson back then either. Dependable safety must be baked into the system rather than allowed to rely on the people who manage it to act in the best interests of strangers.

It may fly and fly well. My issue is, it don't fly by the normal rules of flight.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

It may fly and fly well. My issue is, it don't fly by the normal rules of flight.

 

[Asher]

Yeah, too low and too slow.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Yeah, too low and too slow.

Too low and too slow was the result but the root cause was a lack of coordination and communication between designers and operators. A test pilot familiar with developmental flight rules attempted a restricted flight maneuver in production software with catastrophic results. Despite the crash and public relations disaster restrictive automation became a standard component of Airbus design with Boeing granting the pilots primary override power. Both methodologies can work if they stick to established rules and standards but when Boeing implemented MCAS they failed to give the pilots enough control or give the software enough information to make dependable decisions.

 

[Asher]

Too low and too slow was the result but the root cause was a lack of coordination and communication between designers and operators. A test pilot familiar with developmental flight rules attempted a restricted flight maneuver in production software with disastrous results. Despite the crash and public relations disaster restrictive automation became a standard component of Airbus design with Boeing granting the pilots primary override power. Both methodologies can work if they stick to established rules and standards but when Boeing implemented MCAS they failed to give the pilots enough control and give the software enough information to make dependable decisions.

Their manual revisions were a bit lean on information. I wonder how many hours in a simulator is it going to take to re- wire the pilots

 

[Asher]

American Airlines is so set on convincing passengers the beleaguered Boeing 737 Max planes are safe to fly, it plans to give tours and Q-and-A sessions.

 

[jiml]

For those of you who are 777 fans, Jeb Brooks just did a farewell video for Delta's fleet, flying on one only 11 years old that had recently had a $100M cabin renovation. Sad sign of the times.

 

[Dakota 400]

For those of you who are 777 fans, Jeb Brooks just did a farewell video for Delta's fleet, flying on one only 11 years old that had recently had a $100M cabin renovation. Sad sign of the times.

Excellent video! I hit the sad button because of the loss of their 777s. I wish I could also hit the like button for the video!

 

[west point]

Having spent over 30 years in the airline industry have some thoughts. Believe Boeing picked the 737max because of tjhe desire to have a common type rating anow occurs with an endorsement of the 737-800, and 737-900. That really was the start of the problem. Due to the necessity of more powerful engines the mounting of the engines had to be mounted further forward than present 737s. That engine more forward makes the max more ustable. If the auto pilot fails it will take more concentration to hand fly the aircraft. I would suggest that pilots take some time on each flight to hand fly the aircraft.

Instead I would have used the 757 which has higher clearances due to taller landing gear.. That aircraft has a very good reliability and safety record. The engines on the max are so low thaat FOD damage has always been a problem even with early 737-200s and on upward to present -900s and now max..

No matter how good the MCAS is now it will never reach the stability of the 757s. If the cockpit layout of a 757 - (MAX) had the same cockpit layout as present 737s a 737 type rating would be easy and present 757 and 767 ( common type rating ) pilots could easily transition Fuselage is close to same and streaching has and is done now for 7667s.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Boeing picked the 737max because of [the] desire to have a common type rating [that now] occurs with an endorsement of the 737-800, and 737-900. That really was the start of the problem.

The start of the problem was the rubber stamp policy which diverted much of the testing and qualification process away from regulators and into the hands of the vendors and manufacturers themselves. You reap what you sow.

Instead I would have used the 757 which has higher clearances due to taller landing gear.. That aircraft has a very good reliability and safety record. The engines on the max are so low thaat FOD damage has always been a problem even with early 737-200s and on upward to present -900s and now max.

The 757 has not been sold new in over fifteen years, it shares no type rating with any modern aircraft, and is extremely inefficient by today's standards. If you put a "new" 757 hack through the same presumption of safety that Boeing and the FAA granted to the 737 Max program you end up right back where we started.

 

[jis]

I agree. Most 757s will be gone from passenger service within the '20s decade. They will be replaced by more modern planes with scant attention to common type rating. For example, United is replacing them with a mix of 737-10s (for domestic missions) and A321XLR (for transoceanic internatinal missions).

 

[Dakota 400]

Whatever happened to Boeing's 717?